0:02

Welcome to the SocialEngineer podcast.

0:04

The doctor is in series. This is episode

0:06

one hundred and eighty nine. I'm Chris Huddl Nagy, CEO

0:08

and founder of SocialEngineer LLC,

0:11

the innocent lives foundation, the Institute

0:13

for Social Engineering as well as social dash engineer

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dot org, and I've been hosting this podcast

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since two thousand and nine. In this particular

0:20

series, I am joined by my awesome and

0:22

very intelligent cohost, doctor Abi Morono.

0:24

Nice to have you, Abby.

0:26

Nice to be here, Chris. I am

0:28

Dr. Abby Moreno. I'm a behavioral

0:31

scientist. the director of education

0:33

at SocialEngineer. I'm a nonverbal

0:35

communication expert and coach and a

0:37

lecturer in psychology. I have

0:39

a PhD in behavioral analysis and

0:41

psychology. And

0:43

she's also the person who's personally

0:45

assigned to slap me around every time I say

0:47

something even a tad bit wrong. Yes.

0:50

And scientifically, you mean, you know.

0:52

Okay. So let's do a quick announcement, sponsor

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them out. Okay. Let's get to

3:38

our show. So, Abby, today,

3:40

we're talking about a interesting

3:43

topic that doesn't have much to do with social

3:45

engineering. What

3:47

did you decide we were gonna cover today?

3:50

We are going to cover natural

3:53

born killers on monsters in the

3:55

making. So it's a true

3:57

crime focused podcast today.

4:00

But

4:00

not with an actual one

4:03

crime that we're following. Right?

4:04

No. So we wanna

4:07

kind of talk about the origins of

4:09

evil and violence. We

4:11

see stories in the news a lot.

4:13

We always ask ourselves, you know, how

4:15

could somebody do this, and how could

4:17

somebody be so evil. But

4:19

when we focus on these individual stories,

4:22

for example, Ted Bundy,

4:24

we get very involved in

4:26

that case and kind of the science

4:28

goes away. Yeah. And we celebrities

4:31

serial killers. and it it's morbid, but it

4:33

it happens all the time. So

4:36

in these kinds of talks

4:39

or studies are

4:41

trying to stay away from the specific cases

4:43

and just focus on the science

4:46

of evil, I guess.

4:48

So that's an interesting

4:50

question because, you know, sometimes you do

4:52

see stories like you brought up Ted Bundy, and

4:54

he was so horrifically evil. I

4:56

guess the question for a non

4:58

scientific person, like just a late person,

5:00

like myself, is was he born that way?

5:03

Like, how does someone like,

5:05

I can't imagine like, I hate even

5:07

squash in a bug. You know?

5:09

And and -- Yep. -- you know, and and I've

5:11

hunted before and stuff, but I hate even, like, just

5:13

killing things by a mistake is, like, the

5:15

heart wrenching for me. I can't imagine

5:18

finding pleasure in murdering another human

5:20

and yet people like like Ted

5:22

Bundy and others actually found enjoyment

5:24

in this are they are they born this

5:26

way? Is just something that come out of womb and they're automatically

5:28

evil?

5:28

So that is the big question

5:31

because the big question is Are

5:33

they born evil or do we create

5:35

monsters? And

5:37

probably the easiest view to

5:39

digest is that they're born evil.

5:41

So let's start there and then

5:43

work our way down because it's really

5:45

easy to think that someone

5:47

who is what we call a monster

5:50

is born that way. But then when

5:52

we see them caught, we say, well, they don't

5:54

look like a monster. That's really what

5:56

some months they're supposed to look like. So

5:58

let's dive into

5:59

whether they are born that way.

6:01

And

6:02

to be honest, Every

6:04

single one of us has a

6:06

propensity for evil.

6:08

It it's inside of our DNA.

6:11

Every human civilization is

6:14

born from violence. And if we

6:16

wanna look at the origins of violence,

6:18

where do we go? We'll get chimps.

6:21

So if we look at the lethal

6:23

aggression in chimp

6:25

groups, wild chimps and

6:27

indigenous groups in Australia, It's

6:30

great to look at indigenous groups because they're

6:32

not industrialized like

6:34

we are. We see very

6:36

similar rates of death resulting

6:39

from violence between

6:41

group members. And it's always

6:43

been this way. You know, it

6:45

wasn't that long ago. since

6:47

we were burning women because we

6:49

thought that they were witches, we were burning

6:52

people, because we thought they were vampires,

6:54

because they had TB, Hannibalism

6:57

is littered through the fossil records.

6:59

We can see in the fossil

7:00

records of chimps. We see in chimps.

7:03

we see in the fossil records of

7:05

early humans, we can see in bone

7:07

fragment and evidence of

7:09

consumption. So

7:10

though

7:11

We can't turn a blind eye

7:13

to the fact that within

7:15

humanity, we have been

7:17

defined by violence and

7:20

cruelty still lingers in

7:22

our lineage. It it lingers within

7:24

our DNA. You know, every human

7:26

civilization has wars. was

7:29

mostly driven by things like group

7:31

behaviors and religion. But

7:33

it it's there. Every human

7:35

group has it. But The

7:37

difference is and what separates us

7:39

from chimps is that human

7:42

beings also have a beautiful

7:45

propensity for empathy. And

7:48

in most of us, that overrules

7:50

the violence, yeah, overrules that animal

7:52

nature. So the

7:55

question is, in

7:58

those of us are evil

8:00

is that animal nature too

8:02

strong. Have they not evolved that

8:04

propensity for empathy that we have?

8:07

and we can look in their genes

8:10

to find some evidence

8:12

of this of a biological factor.

8:15

Because if it's biological, it

8:17

means that they're born that way

8:19

because they can't control that. If it's a psychological

8:22

thing, then it can be

8:25

created. So if we look

8:27

at something called carotypes, and

8:29

a a carotype is basically a

8:31

picture of every person's

8:33

chromosome. So every person has

8:35

forty six chromosomes arranged

8:38

in twenty three pairs. And

8:40

our genetic sex is given

8:42

by the y chromosome. so

8:45

females have forty 6XX

8:47

and males have forty 6XY

8:50

In criminals, and

8:53

potentially in psychopaths. There

8:55

may be a difference in the

8:57

quality and the

8:59

qualitative and quantitative aspect

9:02

of the chromosomes. So

9:04

there's a syndrome called klinefelter

9:07

syndrome, which is x x

9:09

why? They have one extra x

9:12

chromosome and you see

9:14

this it's five to ten

9:16

times more likely in

9:18

criminals than it is in the general

9:20

population. Howard

9:21

Bauchner: So then I guess

9:23

if that's true, I

9:25

mean, does every serial killer

9:27

have that?

9:28

Nope. And that's that's

9:29

the question, isn't it? Because we

9:32

we see something. We say, oh, well, that if it's

9:34

more likely in criminals, then that

9:36

must be what's driving it. And there was a huge

9:38

thing that went around about a

9:40

criminal gene. And everyone said if

9:42

they have this gene, they have a criminal. and

9:44

that that's just not true. And what

9:46

we found is that people

9:49

with the XXY

9:52

the risk of convictions is actually

9:54

related to the fact that

9:57

because they have that, they are then subject

9:59

to certain circumstances growing

10:01

up. And it was the

10:03

socioeconomic conditions

10:06

related to that abnormality

10:09

that was driving the criminal behavior.

10:12

But

10:12

in

10:14

let me see. What was the year? You

10:16

did a study. Let me just find the year

10:18

here. It

10:20

was printed in twenty twenty. So the

10:22

behavior sequence analysis of serial killers?

10:24

Yes. k. So you were you were leading

10:26

a study that kinda analyzed that,

10:29

and at one at one point in

10:31

the study, you were

10:33

analyzing a lot of different childhood

10:36

trauma that occurred in many serial

10:39

killers, right, that that that that you

10:41

can kinda show like many of them

10:43

that had this type of abuse

10:45

committed these type of crimes, and many that had this

10:47

type of abuse committed these type of crimes.

10:50

Then we look at someone like Jeffrey Dahmer,

10:53

who at least according to what is

10:55

written, he had a pretty normal childhood

10:57

besides, you know, his mom was depressed

10:59

and his dad was kind of aloof

11:01

and really paying attention to the family.

11:03

But overall, like, no one was

11:05

beating them or sexually abusing

11:07

him. And this guy was horrific.

11:09

Right? He was murdering people and eating

11:11

them. Yep.

11:14

So does that point to the fact that some

11:16

people are just born with this this

11:19

I don't wanna say desire,

11:21

but this switch

11:23

that says this is what brings them happiness

11:26

and pleasure because it nothing in

11:28

Domra's childhood even indicated that he tortured

11:30

animals or anything like that. It's just all of a sudden he

11:32

woke up one day and he was like, hey, I'm gonna kill this guy and

11:34

then start eating them? I

11:36

mean, what's interesting and what you said is

11:38

that it brings him pleasure. So

11:41

though that

11:43

would suggest a a biological

11:45

factor. And the reason I focused on

11:47

pleasure is because there is some really

11:49

interesting findings of

11:51

this from the brain. So

11:53

there's an assumption

11:55

that people who were psychopaths and

11:57

obviously he was a psychopath that

11:59

they don't experience emotions.

12:01

Mhmm. And that's that's

12:03

not true. That's not necessarily true.

12:06

It's not that they're emotion

12:08

there. There there are still

12:10

emotions there. It's that they

12:12

are emotionally blunted.

12:14

They have reduced connect connectivity

12:17

between parts of the brain responsible

12:19

for social and effective decision

12:21

making. So the ventromedial and

12:23

anterior cingulate cortex

12:25

in the prefrontal cortex. And

12:28

basically, what this means is that they

12:30

have a poor connectivity

12:33

between emotional centers

12:36

that control emotional outbursts

12:38

and violent feelings. Mhmm. So

12:40

they can't stop themselves

12:42

behaving on those aspects.

12:44

But the most interesting part

12:47

is that the more the aggressiveness

12:50

increases. They're more their blood pressure

12:52

drops. Meaning

12:54

that the violence has a

12:56

calming effect on them. So

12:59

because of this, brain

13:02

malfunction in the

13:04

amygdala and the emotional centers, that

13:06

violence is bringing them calmness.

13:08

Mhmm. It's actually creating

13:10

up not necessarily pleasure.

13:12

That's slightly different, but it is

13:14

creating this. biological

13:17

soothing effect. Howard

13:18

Bauchner: I mean, Joe Navarro

13:20

mentioned things like this in his book, dangerous

13:22

personalities, right, where maybe not so

13:24

much of the science. Like, you just talked about a

13:26

lot of the brain chemistry, but in

13:28

his time in having to

13:30

deal with psychopath when he worked with the

13:32

FBI that there was

13:34

a a calming when they felt in control

13:36

even when they were talking about maybe the

13:38

worst things on the planet. But they

13:40

seemed very calm and in control as

13:42

long as that destruction

13:44

was in place, which

13:46

to me, also, again, like, whenever there's destruction

13:49

around me, I am not I am not calm.

13:51

there is not any calm that's going on there as

13:53

well. No. It was it's in

13:55

most of us. Our default

13:58

response to anything like change

13:59

is stressed. you

14:01

know, stress and anxiety. That is our default

14:03

response. In psychopaths,

14:06

they're very calm. They don't

14:08

really get that anxiety feeling,

14:10

which is why, you know,

14:12

anxiety we don't like

14:14

anxiety disorder, but Anxiety

14:16

is a blessing because it reminds

14:18

us that we care about what other people

14:21

think. Yeah. If you are

14:23

totally void of anxiety,

14:25

that's concerning because it

14:28

means you don't care about other people's

14:30

perception of your feelings and that isn't

14:32

healthy. That isn't psychologically

14:34

healthy.

14:34

That that's an interesting

14:37

thought. I was when you said that, I was thinking about

14:39

a research study I read

14:42

where the military was

14:44

trying to produce a drug that

14:46

would disable a soldier's amygdala.

14:48

And they were doing this test because they

14:50

figured, well, if we could take this guy and

14:52

remove his amygdala, then he can

14:55

charge into battle without worrying about dying.

14:57

He'd be a super soldier. But what

14:59

they found in these tests is stopping

15:01

the amygdala from working and actually

15:03

created almost like a not just a

15:05

fearless soldier but a monster. There was no

15:07

fear of killing people. There was no fear of

15:09

herding of There was no fear of hurting people that were supposed

15:11

to be on his side. There was like no

15:13

fear. The fear that they wanted to take away of

15:15

just running into a firing squad they

15:17

took away all fear, and it made this

15:19

person almost like an empathetic or

15:21

a non empathetic killer.

15:23

And that that's interesting

15:25

when you said that, you know, it's yeah.

15:27

We those emotions that we

15:29

have, even the ones that we may not like

15:31

so much, you know, are

15:33

really good for a lot of

15:35

reasons. They

15:36

stem from the same place, you know.

15:38

That's why psychopaths aren't

15:41

always really angry and

15:43

always really calm because it's

15:45

emotional bluntness. You

15:47

can't say I I wanna pick and choose the emotions

15:50

that I have because it doesn't work that way.

15:52

You know, we have to embrace the fact

15:54

that we are emotional. But what I

15:56

like about what you just said is that it's

15:58

really relevant to some of the

16:00

research on, I mean, including my

16:02

own, on psychopathy

16:04

or psychopathy even. And

16:07

it's in terms of biological mediators,

16:10

so head injury. where it

16:12

damages the emotional sides

16:14

of the brain. That's

16:16

found in upwards of ten percent

16:18

of serial killers.

16:20

So

16:21

it basically creates lesion

16:24

disorganization, and this is where

16:26

organic lesions in the brain

16:28

are damaged. because of things

16:30

like head damage or brain damage. And

16:32

the emotional centers get

16:35

damaged. And it it

16:37

creates this lack of emotion and

16:39

lack of emotion is

16:41

is very, very dangerous.

16:44

And in the study that I did that you were

16:46

talking about before, One

16:48

of the studies I did was looking at

16:50

cannibalistic serial killers. So

16:52

we looked at serial killers that

16:54

were noncannables and

16:57

circle is the workannables. And

17:01

in both samples, We

17:03

found child abuse. We also

17:05

found head injuries. We

17:07

also found alcohol abuse and

17:10

substance abuse. And this is relevant.

17:12

Of

17:12

the person, like, the the the person that

17:14

was a serial killer or the parents? Yes. Of

17:16

of the person. Of the person

17:18

doing substance and and drug abuse.

17:20

Okay. Yeah.

17:21

And alcohol deeply

17:23

affects the brain. You know, people say, oh,

17:25

drinking moderation and it say, well, you

17:27

know, alcohol breaks through the blood brain area.

17:29

So alcohol will always damage your brain. There's no

17:31

such thing as moderate drinking.

17:34

It's just causing less damage than

17:36

you could be causing but drinking.

17:37

Come on. Don't tell me that now. I Yeah.

17:40

you have money drinking. I mean, yeah, you're

17:42

really, come on. Why do you wanna be this way? It's I

17:44

know. But in just

17:48

cannibalistic circlets rather

17:51

than in both. So it

17:53

might bring them away from

17:55

just killing victims, but, you know,

17:57

going that one gruesome step further. Mhmm.

17:59

We found brain

17:59

abnormalities. And that is a really

18:02

key difference because we found head

18:04

injuries in both. but being born

18:06

with a brain abnormality was

18:08

more likely in canopils,

18:10

which does indicate

18:14

biological driver. That's

18:17

that I

18:18

mean, that should make

18:21

logical sense. Like, if you get to

18:23

the point where you're not

18:25

just okay with murdering

18:27

someone, but then you begin

18:29

to eat them. It's

18:31

so It's like so not normal

18:33

-- Mhmm. -- that you would have to imagine that

18:35

to to get to that part. You know, like, there's

18:37

even things like and I know

18:39

like, culturally, this could this could be

18:41

different depending on where you're from, but even when

18:43

you're trying a new food for the first time. Let's just say

18:46

something that other people actually normally

18:48

eat, like maybe the first time you go to Japan and

18:50

you have something that maybe so

18:52

different looking from a

18:54

western piece of food, it's

18:56

something raw, maybe even. And it just kinda

18:58

has that natural, like, oh, like, almost like a

19:00

gag reflex. Like, you're gonna try it. You're gonna do it. And

19:02

then you're like, oh, that wasn't bad. Right? So you you

19:04

know -- Yeah. but human

19:07

but itself.

19:08

I mean, we have evolved that

19:10

that gag reflex because we've evolved

19:12

to avoid anything that could be dangerous

19:14

and poisonous. So why we

19:16

have that disgust response. Anything that

19:19

is potentially unsafe

19:22

-- Mhmm. -- has this instant

19:25

disgust response we see in our

19:27

nonverbals. It's because if something

19:29

could cause us harm or make

19:31

us sick, pathogens, we

19:33

want them away from us. Okay. Yeah. That makes

19:35

sense. Yeah. But, you know, I

19:37

would elicit a disgust

19:39

response in the face of human

19:42

flesh, you would assume

19:44

that if somebody doesn't, there's got

19:46

to be something biologically

19:48

incorrect that I

19:51

would assume that.

19:52

Yeah. But this raise is an interesting

19:55

question because it's a moral

19:57

issue.

19:57

them

19:58

If It's a

19:59

biological effect. It means they're not in

20:02

control. If our brain says,

20:04

do something. what

20:06

control do we have to say to our brain?

20:08

No. Change the way you're wired.

20:11

Does that take away the brain?

20:13

the blame. Is that true, though? Like

20:14

okay. So, like,

20:17

I could be

20:18

driving on the road. Someone cuts

20:20

me off and my brain says, I would love to

20:22

punch that guy in the face. But then

20:25

critical thinking says, well,

20:27

Chris, that's not only illegal.

20:29

Exactly. But it's violent and I should

20:31

not punch a guy in the face just for cutting me off.

20:33

So I don't go punch him in the face.

20:35

Exactly

20:35

because your prefrontal cortex

20:38

has said Don't do it. If

20:40

there is no activation in the

20:42

prefrontal cortex or blunted

20:44

activation, that part of our

20:46

brain that says no don't do it.

20:48

isn't possible to be activated.

20:51

The signal isn't sending. So

20:53

whereas we can say, I wouldn't do that because it's

20:55

not right. for them,

20:57

they don't have the ability to

20:59

make that thought. And

21:00

then, is that because of the head injury

21:02

or the drug abuse or some

21:04

or the or abuse as a child or something to that

21:07

effect? So interesting

21:08

point, that again, that that's the

21:11

question. there's no such

21:13

thing as a criminal gene. When we talked

21:15

earlier about the genes, that's an

21:17

interesting finding, but it was still

21:19

affected by socioeconomic status. led to

21:21

criminality. There there is

21:23

no such thing as a criminal gene that has

21:25

been highly refuted.

21:28

Right. just because there's

21:30

correlation doesn't mean causation. And

21:33

it's very dangerous to

21:35

make that assumption as well.

21:37

said So

21:38

on that note, is it more than

21:41

biology? Biology is

21:43

clearly

21:43

a risk factor.

21:44

Mhmm. Because if there is a biological effect

21:47

like we can see in psychopaths. If

21:49

they have reduced activity

21:51

in the prefrontal cortex, you

21:53

cannot train that activity back.

21:56

you can't say, hey, work. If it if

21:58

there is no activity there, it's gonna be

21:59

very, very difficult to

22:02

change that because it's

22:04

hardwired. but the fact that

22:06

we see so much

22:09

abuse and

22:11

maladaptive influences

22:14

in their history to

22:16

gents that they could be an environment to

22:19

influence And the thing about the brain is,

22:21

and this is what sets us apart from

22:23

primates. So when we look at the violence in

22:25

chimps and we look at pre humans,

22:28

The difference between chimp brains and

22:30

our brains is that our

22:32

brain structures, they they

22:35

change during development. So

22:37

our

22:38

brain morphology is

22:40

very adaptive to the environment.

22:42

We are very affected by

22:44

what we go through, which is why

22:47

early years in life is so important

22:49

because the brain is forming itself. You

22:51

know, our brain isn't our prefrontal

22:53

cortex isn't fully formed until twenty

22:55

five. So think about all that

22:57

time where we're teaching our brain connections,

22:59

we're teaching it habits, we're

23:01

teaching it to wire you know, neurons are

23:03

fired together, wired together, what we're exposed

23:06

to will show

23:08

how we're gonna act in the future, so those

23:10

negative patterns in our

23:12

past. kind of Primus

23:14

for the future. So

23:17

it would make a lot of sense

23:19

if early childhood abuse

23:21

and early childhood influences

23:23

have a big effect. And

23:25

it's, you know, working on

23:28

cases like this of serocolates,

23:31

sociopaths and psychopaths. When

23:33

you look at their

23:34

histories, it

23:36

humanizes them. Mhmm.

23:39

Because you can see childhood abuse

23:41

and traumatic experiences

23:43

and usually parental

23:45

abuse. And these things

23:47

shape us significantly through

23:50

our childhood. And

23:51

there is a huge connection between

23:54

early childhood abuse and

23:56

criminal conduct. Obviously, not all

23:58

people that experience abuse later

24:00

become criminals. But

24:02

when you look at circular

24:04

histories, more

24:05

often than not. It's

24:08

littered with these horrible

24:11

experiences and you can't help but

24:13

look at those things and think

24:15

Of course, that person

24:17

ended up badly. Imagine going

24:19

through all of that, what it does to the

24:21

brain, what it does to the

24:23

way you think about other people, the way you think about yourself,

24:25

your social learning. Imagine

24:28

going through all of that

24:30

and then trying to come out as a

24:33

healthy, well functioning person.

24:35

It it's horrible

24:37

because it does humanize them.

24:40

Yesterday, I had a conversation with a

24:42

with a woman who

24:45

had some serious childhood

24:47

trauma As a young

24:49

person, her parents moved around three

24:51

different Asian countries. She was

24:54

almost traffic multiple times.

24:57

In

24:57

in

24:58

family abuse,

25:01

she ends up marrying

25:04

a guy who they're together for

25:06

two years, married

25:09

for a year and a half, then she gets pregnant.

25:12

And he punches her so

25:14

hard in the face that he, like

25:16

like, literally lifts her off the ground,

25:18

sends her flying, and he beat

25:20

her multiple times, and then eventually

25:22

slit her throat. She

25:23

the

25:24

survives. Right? She

25:26

runs away from him with a brand

25:28

new baby, living on the street, eating out

25:30

of garbage cans, ends up

25:33

getting some help, goes back to

25:35

school, like her

25:37

life, just one thing after another. Now what

25:39

she does is she spends her whole life

25:41

advocating for crimes against

25:43

children -- Yep. -- you know, like she did

25:45

not turn into a serial killer, she did

25:48

not eat her baby, know,

25:50

she didn't murder anybody. She has

25:52

a laugh that could make anybody

25:54

smile. Like, it's

25:56

it's mind blowing to me because

25:58

like, if she did turn into some horrible

26:01

person, you'd almost go, oh, I get

26:03

it. Like -- Yeah. -- your life

26:05

sucked. Like, you were treated bad by your

26:07

parents. You were treated bad by your

26:09

husband. You were treated bad by the

26:11

system. Like, you would almost be like, yeah. Okay.

26:13

I get it. You're angry. Now you're like out killing

26:15

people. But She didn't. She's an she's an

26:17

amazing human being that turned into

26:19

this advocate for the

26:21

suffering. Yeah. And then,

26:23

you know, you take On the other side, like, you

26:25

know, I won't try to quote it. In

26:27

your study that we were talking about,

26:29

I have a paragraph here.

26:32

You said previous literature suggests that early

26:34

physical abuse leads to later aggression and

26:36

violence. Current results partially

26:38

support this, Although those who were

26:40

physically abused were more likely to demonstrate

26:42

overkill of their victims, the most

26:44

specifically violent methods of kill were

26:46

practiced by those who had been sexually or

26:48

psychologically abused earlier life. Mhmm.

26:50

So she had all of that, and she didn't

26:52

turn into this overkill,

26:54

like -- Yes. -- crime

26:56

killer. Right? She turned into

26:58

an unbelievable human being, but then

27:00

look at Ted Bundy.

27:03

Exactly. Like, it's just it's it's

27:05

like it's it's crazy to me. To

27:08

I I would and I'm sure there's

27:10

many people like you that are trying to

27:12

find the answer. because I guess if we could find the answer, it would go

27:14

a long way and maybe finding

27:16

a cure or being able to at least

27:19

predetermined if someone's gonna be this

27:21

horrible person at childhood, but

27:23

but, wow, it

27:25

just seems like that's a that's a scary

27:28

proposition that -- Yeah. -- you don't

27:30

know. Right? You don't know. I

27:31

mean, you highlight a really good point. You

27:34

know, some people, they go through all of these things

27:36

and you think, well, of course, you know, they

27:38

ended up this way. but then

27:40

other people go through those things and end up

27:42

as kind and

27:44

cavern human beings. So though

27:46

not all tormented and

27:49

abused kids become serial

27:51

killers. Mhmm. And not

27:53

all serial killers were abused

27:55

as kids either. means there is

27:57

a strong relationship. But

27:59

because it's not a hundred percent either

28:02

way, it's not

28:04

all the environment. It's not all

28:06

the biology. You know, it it's

28:08

it's both. Yeah. It

28:10

it's a connection of both.

28:12

And the biological drivers they

28:15

Primates for the

28:17

experiences. Now, and this takes us into

28:19

an important point. And

28:21

I think really the answer

28:23

the answer will always sit within epigenetics.

28:26

And epigenetics is really

28:29

the study of gene

28:32

expression rather than just a genetic

28:34

code. So it's the

28:36

interaction between nature and nurture.

28:38

How does our environment

28:41

change the way that our genes are

28:42

expressed? Because just

28:44

because we have certain

28:46

genes that will determine

28:48

that we are more likely

28:50

to act a certain way.

28:52

Our genes are not sentence

28:54

stone. It doesn't mean I mean, our genes are sentence stone,

28:57

but that doesn't mean our behavior is

28:59

sentence stone because they can be turned

29:01

on and up. environment affects

29:03

the way the genes are expressed. So

29:05

when you have one and not the other,

29:08

you might not get that outcome

29:10

behavior. When you have both.

29:12

You are so much more likely to

29:14

have that outcome behavior. You

29:16

know, just because a child

29:19

susceptible to genetically

29:22

determined violence doesn't mean that they

29:24

are going to be violent. It just

29:26

means they are genetically

29:27

more likely

29:29

too. know

29:30

the other way around. Does

29:32

does personal emotional makeup

29:35

also affect someone's

29:38

ability to you know, and I think about, like,

29:40

you know, and and not talking about serial

29:42

killing or any, you know, anything horrific.

29:44

But, like, I have I have I

29:46

grew up with one brother and and

29:48

two two sisters. We're

29:51

all

29:51

world different. We communicate

29:52

differently. We handle stress differently.

29:55

We We handle family stress

29:58

differently. And and when I say differently, I'm not

30:00

saying, like, oh, they're terrible, and I'm awesome. It's not that. I'm

30:02

saying, like, we all handle it

30:04

differently. Yeah. we all had the

30:06

same two parents. Right?

30:08

So I look at that and I'm like, you know,

30:10

any one of us could have turned into a

30:12

certain killer, I guess. But, you know, it's like, fortunately, not that I know

30:14

none of us are. But it's like, you know, you

30:16

look I hope I mean, I'm not, but I don't know what the

30:18

rest of them, you know. But I

30:20

look at that and I say, like, that is and

30:22

we are really so different in the

30:24

way that we deal with just

30:27

every day. Like, we can have the same decision sitting in front

30:29

of us, and each one of us will make

30:31

a completely different choice

30:34

on how to handle it.

30:36

And I have to imagine that, like, what you

30:38

just said with abuse and these things, you know, I

30:40

think about that person who I spoke to yesterday,

30:43

when she spoke about her mother,

30:45

she also said some really fond

30:48

wonderful things and she would smile. She would smile

30:50

in her face about talking about her

30:52

mom and And at at the end, when we were I

30:54

actually talked to her about that because I'm like, it's just so

30:56

weird to see you talk about, like, your

30:58

childhood being so rough and terrible. But then when

31:00

you spoke about your mama, it was these warm

31:02

feelings. And that so for

31:05

her, even though she had all these horrific

31:07

things, there was also these memories

31:09

that were not terrible.

31:11

These memories that we're warm.

31:13

So

31:13

that plays a lot from personality because

31:16

we've got our genetics, we've

31:18

got our predetermined influences

31:22

and risk factors. And

31:24

we've got our environment, but each one of us,

31:26

we have our own personalities. We

31:28

have our own way of coping with things. We have our own

31:30

thought patterns, and all of these

31:33

things feed into who we are

31:35

in the end. our personalities

31:37

can change and fluctuate across our

31:39

lives. But those things

31:42

affect how the environment affect

31:46

us, as well as the biology. So

31:49

we are very, very

31:51

complicated and interconnected, and

31:53

to say there is one thing

31:55

that creates a

31:57

monster, you know, are we

31:59

natural born killers or do we create

32:01

monsters? Well, it's both

32:03

It's a bit of both. It's it's impossible

32:05

to say that this one thing creates a

32:07

serial killer. And on

32:10

that, I'm we I did a study

32:12

with a research partner on

32:14

the

32:15

there's the wetting the bed

32:18

setting fires and

32:20

killing animals. And these were the

32:22

trio of behaviors that

32:24

were originally supposed

32:27

to be signals that that person is getting to be a serial

32:29

killer. And it's from a misunderstanding of

32:31

an FBI study that was carried out

32:33

many, many years ago. that

32:36

found that those three behaviors were

32:38

more common in serial killers

32:40

than in non serial killers.

32:43

And people say, oh, well, if I see these

32:45

three characteristics in a person, they're

32:47

gonna be a serial killer. It's not

32:49

true. And actually, it's very that

32:51

those three things turn up. The reason that we

32:53

couldn't publish the data is because we couldn't get

32:55

enough data. We got

32:57

low Glad that's not true. half

32:59

of my childhood friends would be serial killers then. Yeah.

33:03

Yeah. As far as undekilled

33:04

animals as well. I mean,

33:06

you know, when I was young, I had kids in

33:08

school that would, like, put firecrackers and frogs

33:10

and stuff. I hated it. I

33:12

hated it. III can never do it, but they

33:14

would do these things and laugh And But

33:17

I

33:17

I love frogs. And it used to it used

33:19

to bother me all the

33:20

time, but I'm thinking when you just said that and like

33:22

like all of us wet the bed at some

33:24

point, So I'm thinking, like, holy mackerel, like,

33:26

if that's the case, then -- Yep. --

33:28

like ninety percent of my childhood friends are

33:30

probably serial killers right now.

33:32

Yeah. Luckily, it's not the case, but I

33:35

just got it. I feel my hurt heart

33:37

hurts for those frogs.

33:38

Yeah. Me too.

33:39

You know? But so

33:42

killing of animals and torturing

33:44

animals is very indicative

33:47

of future violence. If you see

33:49

anybody, get an enjoyment out of harming

33:51

a creature. That is assigned to you that intervention

33:54

needs to be played. That makes sense.

33:56

There's a signal that there there's something

33:58

wrong there. Yeah. You

33:59

know,

34:00

animals are a fantastic thing

34:02

to introduce into a family because they teach

34:04

us empathy. They teach us about death. They

34:06

teach us love. and we

34:09

have a very similar neurochemical reaction

34:11

to loving an animal as we do love

34:13

in a human. Mhmm. That's

34:16

why that very good for therapy

34:18

and coping with trauma. And anybody that is

34:20

capable of getting pleasure

34:22

from harming an animal you

34:25

know, it's not a big leap

34:27

to

34:27

harming a person

34:29

neurologically. So it's a very,

34:31

very dangerous signal. But

34:33

as we said,

34:34

you know, there's not

34:36

one single indicator. And

34:38

these three indicators really

34:41

didn't

34:41

mean anything. People are

34:44

far too complicated to say there is

34:46

this one pattern that

34:48

creates a

34:50

serial killer. And if we see this pattern, that person's gonna be a

34:52

serial killer. So much more

34:54

complicated than that. But what these

34:56

studies do tell

34:58

us is there is a biological

35:00

risk factor. And absolutely, childhood abuse is

35:02

a risk factor. So is parental

35:04

mistreatment that is a big risk factor?

35:08

So is isolation because it

35:10

pushes that emotional sign of things

35:13

and creates that excess stress

35:16

in removing yourself from being around people is teaching

35:18

negative behaviors. And then we

35:20

have things like personality and

35:24

interactions and all of these

35:26

things combined, we can see risk factors,

35:28

but they are simply risk

35:30

factors. And it doesn't

35:32

mean that the accumulation of them is always going to

35:34

mean a serial killer, but we should

35:36

stay vigilant for them

35:38

because if we see them, we then

35:40

try and

35:42

intervene. Yeah. So that

35:43

that was gonna be my question is if I go to my primary

35:45

doctor and he does some

35:47

blood tests, and he doesn't

35:49

find anything terrible. Doesn't find any cancer. He doesn't find

35:52

diabetes or whatever. But he says,

35:54

hey, you have some

35:56

indicators. Some some of this blood work

35:58

shows me that you know, maybe your

36:00

thyroid or your pancreas isn't working

36:02

right. That could lead to diabetes.

36:04

So I want you to start doing x,

36:06

y, and z,

36:08

preventative. Right? So I don't have diabetes. He's not gonna start giving me insulin, but

36:10

he's saying if you do these things, you can avoid

36:12

it. Right? Yeah. So

36:14

if we see

36:16

a child, that maybe was taken now from his home because his

36:18

parents were abusive. He

36:20

shows some of these indicators that

36:22

you say, what can

36:24

be done to and I know we can't

36:26

insure it, but to try. Let's use the word

36:28

try to insure. What can be done to try

36:30

to insure that that child does

36:32

not later on become

36:34

a

36:34

serial killer? I mean,

36:35

if we take a child out and

36:38

we can see I mean,

36:40

there are pre indicators biologically of psychopathy. That's how we diagnose it.

36:42

And if we see those indicators,

36:44

absolutely, we can take them out

36:47

and try and support them. Now, psychopathy is is

36:50

very complicated. Psychopathy

36:52

and sociopathy are very different but

36:55

confused. Socopathy is socialized.

36:58

So it creates you

37:00

can create a sociopath through

37:03

their experiences. psychopath can't

37:05

be created. You you pretty

37:07

much are born biologically

37:10

psychopath. And then those

37:12

environmental influences

37:14

create that negative behaviors. If we see

37:16

those indicators early on, we can take them out and try and

37:19

socialize them correctly, and try and put

37:21

them in safe environments. but

37:24

this is the difficulty because the

37:26

the the international

37:30

systems

37:30

aren't conducive of

37:31

-- Yeah. -- support. Yeah.

37:32

It because it

37:34

it it would be

37:37

amazing. Yeah. if

37:39

there was more focus

37:42

on supporting victims of

37:44

child abuse. And it's like the

37:46

amazing work that you guys do

37:48

with ILF. you know,

37:50

trying to remove

37:52

these predators from people's lives

37:54

and try and support children.

37:57

but there just isn't enough -- Yeah.

37:59

-- resources focused on it. And it's --

38:01

That's a hundred percent true. -- sad truth.

38:03

And -- Yeah. you know, it

38:06

would be amazing to see more intervention focused in there. And there's definitely

38:08

some fantastic charities and

38:12

nonprofits and governmental

38:14

work focused in that direction, but it's a huge mission.

38:16

And because it is so complicated,

38:19

there is only so much

38:21

we can do But we do know the

38:23

risk factors. And science every day is

38:26

working in the right direction

38:28

to discover what

38:30

creates evil and what creates a serial killer, that

38:32

we are making some fantastic findings and

38:34

studies like the the work that

38:37

I did on cannibalism. Just

38:39

recognizing those biological indicators is great

38:41

because it means we can flag them. If we

38:43

see these indicators, it

38:46

means this person

38:48

might potentially be a threat. Now

38:50

we need to do something. Now

38:52

we need to intervene before there's

38:54

a threat there. So it's always worth digging

38:56

into this research and maybe one

38:58

day we'll find an indicator. I doubt

39:01

we will. Yeah. The more we know,

39:03

the more we can support. help?

39:06

It is

39:06

a hard it it's a hard battle because,

39:09

you know, like, in in

39:11

dealing with crimes against children, you

39:13

stop a predator which more often than not

39:15

is someone related family,

39:18

friend. Yeah. And the

39:20

child then gets taken and

39:22

put into what we call here, CPS, child protection

39:24

services. And a large

39:26

majority of those people are

39:28

also abusers. or in it

39:30

just for the money. So there's no real

39:32

love. So, yeah, the child was

39:34

taken away from someone who was directly

39:36

hurting them or

39:38

sexualizing them. but then they're put into a situation that is,

39:40

you know, not

39:42

much better. You

39:43

know, maybe they're not being directly

39:45

hurt anymore, but There's no love.

39:48

There's no healing. You know, they're just

39:50

now not being punched every day or

39:52

not being hurt

39:54

every day. So, yeah, it's a hard one because, you know, we might be able to see

39:56

the indicators, but it's it's like

39:58

even if we even if you did an amazing

40:00

study tomorrow and

40:02

you said, here are five indicators that this person is

40:04

definitely a pedophile or this person is

40:06

definitely even if you could do that, I know you can't,

40:08

but let's say

40:10

you could. There's no way on Earth. You're gonna be able to assign the

40:12

FBI or Department of Homeland

40:14

Security or SAS or

40:16

whatever it is around

40:18

the globe. to go arresting people that have not committed a

40:20

crime that have these

40:22

indicators. Right? It's just not gonna happen. We're not we're not

40:24

living in

40:26

minority report. You know? So

40:28

And even

40:28

if we could, we shouldn't. Right.

40:30

It's just because somebody could

40:33

do something. They might It doesn't mean

40:35

they want to and it doesn't mean they will.

40:37

Right. Even if a person has

40:39

the ability to and has the

40:41

genetic influences to do that, if

40:43

they don't want

40:46

to harm then they shouldn't be put

40:48

in prison because they are still a human

40:50

being. They still have rights.

40:52

We need to take those

40:54

populations and we need to do something with

40:56

them. We don't need to put them in prison. We don't need

40:58

to punish them for crimes they

41:00

haven't committed. because they're still need

41:02

those crimes being committed.

41:04

We also need to take a point.

41:08

Safety. You know, we need to stop people that could

41:10

potentially commit crimes and

41:12

intervene and give them a way to

41:14

stop committing those crimes, but that that's a

41:16

huge battle.

41:18

And we need to pro provide safety for children particularly, and this

41:20

is something I feel very strongly about

41:22

in the foster care system. Yeah.

41:24

because the foster care system is

41:28

a a very dangerous place to be and it it's

41:31

heartbreaking when children are

41:33

taken from these maladaptive

41:36

circumstances and

41:38

put in a system that doesn't support them.

41:40

You know, the the answer to these things

41:42

is love and empathy and

41:46

care and social support and

41:48

touch. You know, we -- Mhmm. -- if

41:50

you if you deprive a

41:52

child of

41:54

touch and there was a really interesting study done

41:56

on this. You feed child and you provide them

41:58

everything they need to survive. but

42:01

you deprive them of love. You provide them

42:04

of deprive them of

42:06

touch. They don't grow

42:08

into a healthy

42:10

human being. they don't biologically grow in the way that they

42:12

should. It also stuns their

42:14

growth. And that speaks

42:16

volumes to the fact that

42:19

we need to connect with other people. We need to

42:22

feel safe with other people.

42:24

Mhmm. and And

42:26

it's

42:26

not necessarily

42:26

the answer because the answer is very complicated, but it's

42:29

absolutely a step in

42:31

the right direction. I

42:33

think this brings us to a

42:36

really fitting end with

42:38

a Before you end. Yes.

42:39

Before you end, I wanted to tell you, I was

42:41

reading an article on that point of what

42:43

you said, and there was this orphanage

42:45

in China that routinely

42:48

like, the babies wouldn't get adopted

42:51

they would mount nourish, and they would be given

42:53

food, get their diaper changed every day -- Yeah.

42:55

-- but these children would die. You know, they would never

42:57

make it past a year and a half.

42:59

Then there was this all out of the blue, all of a

43:01

sudden, there's this group of, like, five or

43:03

six kids that started to

43:06

flourish. They were healthy. They were growing. They

43:08

weren't losing weight. They were

43:10

so nobody can figure it out. The people who

43:12

were in the orphanage couldn't figure it out. So they set up a

43:14

camera. One's gonna figure out what is happening

43:16

with these kids that is different. And

43:18

what they found was a cleaning lady that would come in at night. And

43:20

in between cleaning things, she would pick up

43:22

one of the babies and just hold it for

43:25

a couple of minutes. and put it back

43:27

and then she clean more. And because of her schedule, she can only get to five

43:29

or six kids. But it was the same

43:31

five or six kids

43:33

every night she would come in. Those five or six kids would get picked

43:36

up and rocked a little and kissed on the

43:38

forehead and then put back. And

43:40

those five or

43:42

six kids didn't die. And it was like just something as

43:44

simple as a cleaning lady coming

43:46

in at night for a

43:48

couple minutes per child just

43:50

touching and

43:52

holding them. And all the rest, they all had the same

43:54

food, same diaper change, same medicines, water,

43:56

like they had all the things they

43:58

needed, but those five or six infants

44:01

got held. And -- Yep. -- and

44:03

they they survived. And I'm like, I read that, and

44:05

I'm like, that's amazing

44:08

that I mean, I know it's not

44:10

a scientific study, but it was amazing to read that and everything was the

44:12

same except for one thing. And those

44:15

five got held. Yep.

44:17

I mean, we we need love and we

44:19

need touch. We need social connections. It's

44:21

like the the famous

44:24

Harvard study. that was

44:26

looking at reducing

44:28

mortality. So how do we live longer? How

44:30

do we live longer and help their lives?

44:33

And obviously, they looked at things like diet and exercise and

44:36

all of those things. And obviously, diet is

44:38

very conducive of health of the life,

44:40

exercise very

44:42

conducive. But the overall

44:44

factor that the driving factor

44:46

was our social connections. Mhmm. When

44:49

we don't have strong social connections

44:51

and we are isolated, it creates

44:53

increased risk of mortality. We are a social

44:56

species. We are wired

44:58

to be

45:01

we're gonna get to that point in a couple of episodes

45:03

where we talk about cooperation and information solicitation. But

45:06

we are absolutely a social

45:08

species. There

45:10

is no doubt about that. Every part of

45:12

us, it's in our DNA to be social.

45:14

We need love. And

45:18

Is it a cure to evil?

45:20

Who knows? But it's definitely a

45:22

step in the right direction. Yeah.

45:26

I

45:26

agree. Okay. So I cut you

45:27

off when you said in the end, you had something fun.

45:29

So what's the fight? Adam, this horrible

45:32

topic. What could possibly be

45:34

fun? Oh,

45:36

okay. An interesting Oh, interesting. I'm sorry. No. Then I I'm

45:38

sorry. I thought you said fun, but I couldn't

45:40

just be here. I wanted to maybe hear fun.

45:43

I don't know. I hope

45:45

I didn't say fine. If I did, it's not fun. It's just

45:47

interesting. And it's a good quote

45:49

from the FBI. Jim

45:54

Clementine. When talking about

45:56

serial killers, he said

45:58

that genetics load

45:59

the gun. the

46:00

personality and psychology aim the gun, and our

46:03

experiences pull the trigger. And I think

46:05

that is a a great quote

46:08

to emphasize the interconnected nature of

46:10

all of these influences. You know,

46:12

we don't we neither don't create

46:16

killer nor are they born a killer. It's

46:19

it's everything. It's both.

46:21

Yeah. Well, that wasn't

46:22

a fun quote, but It

46:25

was interesting. Thank

46:28

you. For as always, bringing in a ton

46:30

of research, which for everyone listening, all

46:32

of the research notes will be in our

46:34

show notes So if you have access to a research

46:36

library, you can read the things that were this

46:39

podcast were based on. In addition to AbbVie's

46:41

own research, both of those will be

46:43

listed in so you can check all of that out. And

46:45

you can join us next month on the doctor's in

46:48

but we'll be discussing shame

46:51

the good, the bad, and the coping.

46:53

I'm really excited about this topic

46:55

because Shane, for anyone who's listened to

46:57

this podcast at all, we've talked

46:59

about it one of those things that's really hard to understand

47:01

and something that we would never use as professional

47:04

social engineers. So this will be a

47:06

really fascinating topic to

47:08

understand it from a scientific level with our resident

47:10

doctor. So Yeah. A chain was

47:12

actually

47:12

brought in. Somebody requested it.

47:14

So if you have any other requests

47:18

for topics. Please message us and request

47:20

a topic because we will put them

47:23

in future episodes, and it's great to

47:25

see what people are enjoying listening

47:28

to. I'm

47:28

glad that was a good that's a that's a good suggestion from whoever did it.

47:30

So thank you for suggesting it. And yeah,

47:32

keep those comments coming and it really

47:36

helps us. Thanks Abby for another great

47:38

episode. Thank you, Chris, for another great

47:39

episode. And thanks everyone for

47:41

listening until

47:44

next month. We'll

47:48

see you.