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or combo meal. Single item at regular

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price. Hey

0:56

everyone, it's Dan. Quick note before we

0:58

get to today's episode. Next week, we

1:00

are launching something really special, a brand

1:02

new podcast called Deep Dish. And I'm

1:04

so excited about the hosts that are

1:07

old friends, Sola and Ham Elwaly. Now

1:09

this first season of Deep Dish is

1:11

four episodes and all the episodes will

1:13

appear right here in this pork full

1:15

feed. Here's a little preview. Welcome

1:19

to Deep Dish. This is a show where we

1:21

do deep dives on the dishes we love. And

1:23

then we eat them. I'm Sola. And I'm Ham.

1:25

And we're married. And we're chefs. We

1:27

met in culinary school and fell in love, huddled

1:29

together at the bottom of a bunk bed, just

1:31

flipping through a modernist cookbook together. Every

1:34

food you eat has a story. In

1:36

Deep Dish, Sola and Ham will deep

1:39

dive into the surprising stories behind a

1:41

range of dishes, talking with chefs, artisans,

1:43

and experts. Bagel shops were popping up

1:45

every place. And that's the point at

1:48

which the mafia decided to get involved.

1:51

Wait, what? This is like a secret

1:53

mob story. I did not see that coming. Bagels

1:55

plus secret mob story. Deep Dish

1:57

with Sola and Ham is part detective

1:59

show. She's willing to lie about that. What else

2:01

does she like? Part

2:04

quest through history in big,

2:06

bold letters. It says, we

2:08

are the creators of Tacos

2:10

El Pastor and part cooking

2:13

show. There's some apple cider

2:15

vinegar, garlic, Mexican oregano, and

2:18

the achiote. In one episode,

2:20

we'll hear how Lebanese immigrants to Mexico brought

2:22

shawarma, which over time evolved into Tacos El

2:24

Pastor. In another, bagel bakers take on the

2:27

mob. Then there are the ancient cookbooks that

2:29

hold the key to one of Korea's most

2:31

beloved dishes. And the story

2:33

of a Mississippi favorite made popular by a

2:35

cop turned restaurateur who got the idea after

2:38

being called to a car wreck where he

2:40

found two dead bodies and a trunk full

2:42

of tamales. Man, it was hot tamales scattered

2:44

all over that car. That's crazy.

2:46

Right? I thought that was

2:49

crazy. Join Sola and Ham as they

2:51

uncover these stories one bite at a time.

2:53

When you see where bagels came from, it's

2:55

very obvious that this is not just bread

2:58

with a hole in it. It has its

3:00

own unique characteristics, this chewy interior, this crust.

3:02

You have to fight with this bread. It's

3:04

a bread made by hard people. And along the

3:06

way, it may have some disagreements. Is this

3:08

podcast going to tear us apart? Deep Dish will

3:11

forever change your perspective on foods you know

3:13

and introduce you to others you don't. We're

3:15

going to see a little bit of violence. Whoa,

3:17

violence, murder, bagels,

3:21

Deep Dish. You

3:25

know how a lot of people hollow out their

3:27

bagels? People ask for hold up. Oh, why? And

3:29

then they fill it with cream cheese. And then

3:31

you fill that cavity with cream cheese? So you

3:33

have a tunnel of cream cheese. Oh my god, that's

3:35

too much cream cheese. It's the ratios. They're all wrong.

3:37

The ratios, you're out of your mind.

3:39

The first episode of Deep Dish drops a week

3:42

from today, Monday, January 22. As

3:44

I said, all four episodes will be available

3:46

right here in the Sporkful feed over the

3:48

next month. So please, right now, open up

3:50

your podcasting app, go to the Sporkful page,

3:52

and click Follow or Subscribe or Favorite or

3:54

whatever it is in your app, because that

3:56

way you won't miss any episodes of Deep

3:58

Dish or the Sporkful. You can click that

4:01

button right now while you're listening. Thanks. Now

4:03

on to today's show. I

4:07

have a lot of people who call me

4:10

and say, you know, all my neighbors

4:12

have said, I made the best spaghetti

4:14

sauce you could make. I

4:17

think I want to try and get into

4:19

supermarkets with it. And I

4:22

say, generally, that's no problem. All

4:24

you need is about $10 million to start. You

4:27

have $10 million? Get

4:29

quiet at the other end of the phone. And

4:32

she said, no. And

4:35

I said, well, I'm not sure

4:37

then that you ought to do this. This

4:44

is the Fork Fall. It's not for foodies,

4:47

it's for eaters. I'm Dan Paschman. Each week

4:49

on our show, we obsess about food to

4:51

learn more about people. So before we jump

4:53

in, I have even more big news for

4:56

you. When my cookbook comes out in just

4:58

two months, I'm going on the biggest tour

5:00

in Fork Fall history. These events will be

5:02

book signings and live podcast tapings all across

5:04

the country. I'll have more info later in

5:07

the show. For all the details, you can

5:09

go to sporkfall.com/tour. All

5:11

right, grab your reusable bags because this week on

5:13

the show, we're going grocery shopping. I've

5:16

said it on the show before, I love grocery shopping.

5:18

I like seeing what new products are on the shelves

5:20

these days, finding inspiration for fun things to cook. Over

5:23

the past few years, I don't know about

5:25

you, but I've seen an explosion in new

5:27

items. A lot of them small batch products

5:29

from startup brands. Just look at the barbecue

5:31

sauces or the nut butters or all the

5:33

new drinks in the beverage aisle, it's dizzying.

5:36

I had no idea that so many different countries had their

5:38

own unique styles of yogurt. And

5:40

it's not just my perception. In recent years, startup food

5:42

brands have captured 3.5% of the market from big food

5:47

brands. Now, maybe that doesn't sound like

5:50

a lot, but supermarkets generate over $1

5:52

trillion in sales

5:54

with a T trillion, okay? So

5:56

3.5% of that is still

5:58

billions of dollars. For many companies,

6:00

it's market share worth fighting for. And this

6:03

fight has reshaped the way the grocery store

6:05

looks. Today we're asking, how

6:07

did that happen? How have all these

6:09

new products gotten on shelves when there are

6:11

so many bigger, more powerful brands competing against

6:14

them? To find out,

6:16

I went to Fairway Market on the Upper East

6:18

Side of Manhattan. It's a small regional grocery store

6:20

chain. You're good. You need any

6:22

grapes? Go ahead. All right, yeah, sorry.

6:24

We're blocking the grapes. Go on, sorry.

6:26

Yeah, yeah. I'm

6:30

here with John Stanton, my expert guide in the

6:32

grocery store. I'm chairman

6:34

of the food marketing department at

6:37

St. Joseph's University in Philadelphia. How'd

6:39

you get into this work? Surrendipitously,

6:43

I went to Temple University and when

6:45

I was there for literally only one

6:47

year, I got a

6:50

consulting contract with Campbell Soup.

6:54

And that was about 50 years ago.

6:56

So I've been doing this literally for

6:58

50 years. And what drew

7:00

you into it? What did you like about it? Money.

7:06

We'll be honest, Anthony. As

7:10

John and I start walking through the store, I'm looking

7:12

at all the fun, new interesting products to try. But

7:14

he sees grocery stores differently. He sees

7:16

a turf war. There are two

7:19

battles to take place. The battle of getting

7:21

on the shelf and the battle

7:23

of getting it off the shelf. So

7:25

when you pull a product off the shelf to buy it,

7:27

you too have been pulled into the battle. And

7:30

I get it. Every brand in every aisle

7:32

is competing to get into your shopping cart.

7:35

That's the second battle John mentioned. But

7:37

I wasn't familiar with the first battle of getting on

7:39

the shelf. Big brands see

7:41

shelves as precious commodities. They

7:43

say, listen, where it would like to be is

7:46

between eye to thigh. The

7:48

retailer says, well, you know, this is like

7:51

having real estate in New York.

7:53

Right. That's like Madison

7:55

Avenue. Madison Avenue. Exactly. So

7:58

the grocery store and the retailer. retailer

8:00

says, if you want to be in the most desirable

8:02

location in our store, you got to pay for it.

8:05

This is called a slotting fee and

8:07

they are everywhere in grocery stores. Entire

8:09

aisles are bought and paid for. In

8:11

fact, John says 60 to 70 percent

8:14

of grocery stores profits come from these

8:16

slotting fees. In other words,

8:18

retailers make more money charging brands for

8:20

shelf space than they make charging us

8:22

for food. This system

8:24

of slotting fees gives an advantage to bigger

8:26

companies. It definitely does. You need

8:29

a lot of money upfront just to get

8:31

into stores to pay those fees. Bigger companies

8:33

want to keep that advantage. They will often

8:36

go so far as to buy up more

8:38

space just to leave their competitors with less

8:40

space. That's a great

8:42

strategy. A customer can't

8:44

buy their product if they're

8:47

not on the shelf. Just as we're talking

8:49

about this battle over shelf space, I happen to

8:51

spot someone stocking products in that prime eye to

8:53

thigh real estate. Hey,

8:55

my name is Dan. I host a

8:57

food podcast. This is Professor

9:00

John here. Hi, how are you doing? Professor John, nice to

9:02

meet you. Would it be okay if I asked you a

9:04

couple of quick questions? It takes like two minutes of your

9:06

time. I'm kind of a little short, but how

9:08

long? Two minutes. Okay.

9:10

All right. What's your job title? I'm

9:13

a distributor at Pepsi Cola from

9:15

61st Street to 97th Street on

9:17

the east side of Manhattan. So

9:20

anyone who's got Pepsi in that territory, you're making

9:22

sure it's in the store? Yes, sir. And

9:25

when you're walking up and down the aisle here, what are you seeing? What are you

9:27

looking for? What

9:29

am I looking for? I'm looking for empty

9:32

shelves and what I

9:34

could fill and rotate and new

9:37

product in. And I know that

9:39

all big companies pay slotting fees

9:41

to get their products placed in

9:44

supermarkets. So like,

9:46

what are you thinking about slotting fees when you come

9:48

in and look and see where your products are placed?

9:52

It's unfair because

9:56

my Chief competition is Coca-Cola

9:58

and they buy it. Hi out

10:00

all the space whatever they can

10:02

like for example, to talk about

10:05

Melissa Sir So of the road

10:07

a Target and we all know

10:09

Target, the national account or news

10:11

Nasa town. We were up about

10:14

forty percent in the last year

10:16

and Targets specially just one open

10:18

eighty six streets and all the

10:20

sudden Cope did some kind of

10:22

slot who payments or whatever was

10:25

and now we used to have

10:27

like maybe or forty percent of

10:29

the south. Now we got twenty

10:31

percent myself and they have even percent

10:33

of the south south so it is

10:35

unbelievable. Now my company has the com

10:37

the bat again but they do that

10:39

come on shots. I mean Fc is

10:41

also not small potatoes like that that

10:43

they must be able to fight back

10:45

against go through. but in Manhattan's the

10:48

shelf space as she could see is

10:50

a premium at this point. Suck. Couldn't

10:52

stated sat more low. And

10:54

sell Sith Lord that is. Point is that

10:56

even if Pepsi response in some way it's

10:58

a constant battle. And in a busy

11:01

store a few months with your product and twenty

11:03

percent of the cells is set of forty percent.

11:05

The really hurt sales. Now. There's a

11:07

new issue of people it's up to worry

11:09

about Pepsi and other big companies still have

11:11

to pay the slot and sees the grocery

11:13

stores often are not charging smaller brand slot

11:15

fees. Why? Not. With. That

11:18

of the goodness of their hearts,

11:20

Science Has grocery stores started changing

11:22

their strategy when they started collecting

11:25

data on us. That's literally twenty

11:27

four years ago, the manufacturers use

11:30

to give Sado information to retailers.

11:32

Today retailers are selling that information

11:34

to the manufacturers. Assess. That has

11:37

been the story that a grocery

11:39

stores get. All That Presses data

11:41

will you give it to them

11:44

every time you use your Supper

11:46

Club card? or two thirds of

11:48

consumers have one of these cards kroger

11:51

the largest grocery chain of the country

11:53

says ninety six percent of purchases at

11:55

stores are tied to a loyalty card

11:57

over the years they've been able to

11:59

get deeper into the

12:01

consumer who are buying and

12:03

they're learning more about what

12:05

people want. And one

12:07

of the big things grocery stores are looking at

12:09

with all that data is what types of products

12:11

get bought together. What different items are likely to

12:14

end up in the same person's cart? John

12:16

gives me an example of how this plays out. He

12:18

was consulting for a big grocery store chain and the chain

12:21

was taking a look at their baby food aisle. So

12:23

they looked at the shelf and they

12:25

said, hey, we don't sell a lot

12:27

of papaya for baby

12:30

foods. Let's take one

12:32

of these products and we'll replace

12:34

papaya with beans.

12:37

Some other higher seller baby food. Yeah,

12:39

I think so. But when the store

12:41

stopped selling papaya baby food, suddenly sales

12:43

of their other baby products plummeted. So

12:46

what happened? The person

12:48

that bought the papaya, there

12:50

were very many of them, but

12:53

they also bought diapers. They also

12:55

bought the washable pads. They

12:58

also bought all the other varieties,

13:01

et cetera. So when they lost

13:04

papaya, they lost the

13:06

customer who spends a lot

13:08

of money. So even though papaya

13:11

baby food wasn't a big seller, the

13:13

people who bought papaya baby food tended

13:15

to be bigger spenders overall. In

13:17

recent years, these insights have led grocery stores

13:19

to pay more attention to the products that

13:21

attract certain customers. They're focusing

13:23

more not on how

13:26

many grapes do we buy, but

13:28

how much money do we make from a

13:32

basket that have grapes in it?

13:35

The stores want to bring in the customers whose

13:37

baskets and shopping carts will be more profitable overall.

13:39

And they need data to identify those customers. According

13:43

to the publication The Markup, grocery stores collect

13:45

data on age, race, finances, and employment. By

13:47

using the phone number, you've linked to your

13:50

frequent shopper card and data they buy from

13:52

third parties. But those cards aren't

13:54

their only tool. The Wall Street Journal

13:56

has reported that grocery stores use video surveillance to

13:58

see how long you'll live. look for an

14:00

item before giving up. They call that the

14:02

walk rate. If an item is popular

14:04

but has a low walk rate, stores give it prime

14:07

real estate to be sure you can find it before

14:09

you stop looking. So the stores have

14:11

all this data and one of the key takeaways from

14:13

it is that those high value customers who spend a

14:15

lot of money, they want smaller

14:17

brands, local brands, products with fewer

14:19

processed ingredients, items that are different

14:21

from the big companies. But

14:24

for a long time, it was very hard for these brands to

14:26

get on shelves. Now, one

14:28

of the things that people

14:30

complain about is we're

14:32

a small manufacturer. We just don't

14:35

have the money to pay these

14:38

slotting fees. And it's

14:40

true, it really, really does

14:43

impact the small manufacturer.

14:45

Now many retailers have made a major

14:48

change. They're giving up slotting fees from

14:50

smaller brands to bring in those more

14:52

upscale artisanal items that bigger spenders want.

14:55

In other words, they're making sure there's an

14:57

equivalent of Pahaya baby food in every aisle.

15:00

And this change allowed a lot of startups to get

15:02

on shelves faster than they might have a decade ago.

15:05

That's how some of these startups hit it big. John

15:08

and I arrived in the pasta sauce aisle.

15:10

After seeing the big brands like Prago and

15:12

Ragu, we come across Rayo's. Named

15:14

after like a famous Italian restaurant in

15:16

New York. Yeah, they

15:18

used to say it was the hardest

15:20

table to get a reservation

15:22

for. It ends up that the

15:25

sons got involved with the

15:27

business. It said, we've got

15:29

a really good brand here. People

15:32

have heard of Rayo's. Yeah, they've

15:34

done a great job. So they launched a tomato sauce,

15:36

which am I right? Didn't they sell it to Campbell's

15:38

recently for a very large sum of money? Yeah, he

15:40

sold it to Campbell's. Another

15:42

sort of relatively recent shift in the grocery

15:44

business that I'd love to talk with you

15:46

more about, which is just the proliferation of

15:49

the number of different varieties that

15:51

each brand puts out. There

15:55

was Ragu and Prago's. And I remember

15:57

when they launched Extra Chunky. there

16:00

was spicy. Now, let

16:02

me just look at reo's. There's

16:04

marinara, tomato and basil, vodka arabiata,

16:06

roasted garlic, regular vodka,

16:09

four cheese, sensitive marinara

16:11

with no onions or garlic, caramelized

16:13

onion, bolognese, mushroom and bell pepper,

16:15

pizza sauce, margarita pizza sauce, that's

16:18

all just from reo's. This display

16:20

is nice. This is called billboard

16:22

effect. I mean, you are clearly

16:24

as you stand in this aisle

16:28

taken by reo's.

16:30

It's like one, two, three, four, it's like

16:32

seven or eight shells on top of each

16:34

other, just all

16:36

reo's. So it's just like a wall of reo's.

16:38

Yeah. And so that really speaks to building the

16:40

brand. So it catches your eye when

16:42

you're walking down the aisle. Absolutely. If you get

16:44

a nice display like this, so you're really

16:47

focusing on the brand, well,

16:49

maybe it is good to have different choices.

16:52

I mean, if you had all this space

16:54

and it was all the same product, not

16:56

so exciting, it would not be too exciting. This

16:59

huge variety of products now offered by

17:01

brands from tomato sauces to chips to

17:03

just about everything else is also

17:05

pretty new. And John says this

17:08

change is also fueled by consumer data because

17:10

the food brands can also get access to this data

17:12

for a price. And all this information

17:14

allows them to pinpoint trends and figure out

17:16

what other flavors and varieties people might want.

17:19

And it's easier for companies to make

17:21

all these new flavors now thanks to

17:23

new advances in manufacturing technology. Computerized systems

17:25

can clean and switch manufacturing lines to

17:27

produce a new flavor much faster now.

17:30

Years ago, a company might have had to shut down

17:32

a line for a whole day or two to switch

17:34

between products and you can't make money while your lines

17:36

are down. Now they can make

17:38

more varieties faster. And by using consumer data,

17:40

they can deliver them to the grocery stores

17:42

where people actually want them. And all

17:45

those different varieties make it easier to fill shelves

17:47

and create that billboard effect that John and I

17:49

see in the tomato sauce aisle. He

17:51

says this kind of display is the most effective

17:53

ad a brand can have. This

17:55

is really when you come in here, this

17:58

is really where the

18:00

prime time is. You know you

18:03

talk about on television prime time.

18:05

No, this is prime time.

18:07

You've got to be in front

18:09

of the product in

18:11

order to buy the product. You

18:13

know, and that's prime. I got

18:15

a potential customer standing in front

18:17

of my product with money in

18:19

their pocket. Not at nine

18:22

o'clock at night watching a television commercial.

18:25

So this is huge. This is the moment you're going

18:27

to make the sale. Yeah, this is where the tire

18:30

hits the road. Everything

18:32

you've been doing in the company, managing

18:35

supply chain, getting the best

18:37

ingredients, all that comes

18:40

down to right here. So

18:47

you can understand why there's such fierce competition

18:49

for the best supermarket real estate and why

18:52

stores are giving some prime spots to smaller

18:54

brands. What does it take for a smaller

18:56

brand to get to the point that it's ready to get on

18:58

shelves in the first place? And once it

19:00

gets there, how does it stay there? We'll

19:02

find out. Stick around. And

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now a delicious word from

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They're not going to want to get out. Of course,

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a new year is also time

19:49

for a resolution. Here's one from

19:51

Sporkful listener, Tressa. In 2024, I

19:53

resolved to eat more tahini. This

19:56

is the same resolution I made last year, but this

19:58

time I'm saying it out loud. So hopefully it

20:00

sticks. That's right, Tressa. You can do it.

20:02

I recommended Deaness Sussman's recipe for Tahini Magic

20:04

Shell on vanilla ice cream. It is so

20:06

good. Me, personally, I am resolving to enjoy

20:09

meals eaten in the car more. Whether it's

20:11

on a family road trip or a quick

20:13

bite, the car doesn't have to be a

20:15

place for mindlessly scarfing food down. If you

20:17

focus on what you're eating, you can get

20:19

great enjoyment from meals on the go. Of

20:21

course, it helps if your car has a

20:23

lot of space and a stylish interior, which

20:25

is why your New Year's resolution should be

20:28

to check out the first-ever Toyota Grand Highlander.

20:30

It's got all the space and comfort you need

20:32

to handle any family situation. Third-row

20:35

legroom makes long trips grand, and

20:37

more space means more room for

20:39

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20:41

available Hybrid Max powertrain. The first-ever

20:43

Grand Highlander has the perfect combination

20:45

of power, acceleration, and efficiency. Learn

20:48

more at toyota.com/Grand Highlander.

20:53

As someone who's lived in Chicago and spent a good bit

20:55

of time in Michigan, I love the

20:57

Midwest in the winter. I really believe that

21:00

the people who live in places that have

21:02

longer winters, like they just know

21:04

how to make winter phenomenal. And Ann Arbor,

21:06

Michigan welcomes winter with arms wide open. Like

21:09

people across the Midwest, Ann Arbor gets more

21:11

creative and full of life when snow starts

21:13

to fall. Maybe you want to spend a

21:16

day snowshoeing or hiking in the woods and

21:18

seeing some nature. You want to make your

21:20

way through town, duck in for a hot

21:22

chocolate, sit by a fireplace, and have a

21:25

nice craft beer. Then you're back out in

21:27

the cold walking around, and then you come into a

21:29

different cozy spot. Maybe it's a concert. Maybe it's a

21:31

theater event. Maybe it's a phenomenal

21:33

restaurant. Ann Arbor has all these things.

21:36

That's why they say that Ann Arbor

21:38

winter is brighter. And there are so

21:40

many good restaurants in Ann Arbor. You

21:42

could go there for weeks and eat

21:44

well at a different restaurant every single

21:46

night. And you can visit surrounding towns

21:49

like Ypsilanti, Dexter, Chelsea, Manchester. So plan

21:51

your getaway at visitannarbor.org and see how

21:53

they winter brighter. For

21:56

175 years, Gortons has been committed to spreading

21:58

the goodness of the world. The Sea by

22:00

making quality seafood accessible to everyone, all

22:03

responsibly sustaining it's future and let me

22:05

tell. Have been enjoying a lot of

22:07

incredible Gorton seafood in the past when

22:09

households and I didn't realize how many

22:11

different great products Gordon's offers until they

22:14

sent me this incredible care package. the

22:16

such as this text which my kids

22:18

love. They. Have a whole variety of

22:20

seafood products with products today ranging from one

22:22

hundred percent whole wild caught Alaska Pollack Falaise

22:25

to crispy butterfly shrimps to the classic fish

22:27

sticks. The fish cooks up in the oven

22:29

nice and crispy with a great fresh taste

22:31

day like some were. Tartar sauce Beckett m

22:33

me like I'm with Catch Up. I like

22:36

to tartar sauce with a-of hot sauce in

22:38

all cases that this cooks up so crispy,

22:40

so flavorful and think easy and you know

22:42

how to fight in the store. Look for

22:44

the iconic fishermen and yellow packaging. You gonna

22:47

fry it or we haven't tried. Know. Why

22:49

you gotta get back to it? Visit

22:51

Gordon's.com to learn more. Find a store

22:54

and get recipe inspiration. Time.

22:56

Time for a quick break to talk about

22:58

McDonald's. Mornings are for mixing and matching at

23:00

McDonald's. For just $3, mix and match two

23:03

of your favorite For just $3, mix and match two of your favorite breakfast items,

23:05

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23:07

burrito, and hash browns. Make it even

23:09

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23:11

With McDonald's Mix and Match, breakfast items, including a sausage McMuffin. you

23:13

can't go wrong. Price and participation may vary.

23:25

Welcome back to the score full I'm damn

23:27

pass when he was about to the so

23:29

I want to say more about this tour

23:31

rights or my cookbook. Anything's Possible comes out

23:34

in March. I'm have gone on the biggest

23:36

tour in support for sisters. These events will

23:38

be book signings and live podcast and been

23:40

conversation with some incredible folks many from you've

23:42

heard here on the Silver Force of he

23:44

turned the tables in asked me some questions.

23:46

can be great so where am I going

23:48

and who will I be tied in with?

23:51

Well I'm glad you asked. New York City

23:53

with cookbook author and you tube star Claire

23:55

Savitz. long island with top chef scale

23:57

simmons chicago with the korean vegan so

24:00

fucking he

25:00

spent three years as an investor in

25:02

cpgs that's consumer packaged goods companies he

25:05

invested in some of the small new food brands you

25:07

see on shelves today in twenty eighteen

25:09

he decided to go to work for one of

25:11

those brands ollie pop a new soda company with

25:13

big ambitions to compete with the largest soda companies

25:15

in the world by offering a soda with less

25:17

sugar and a lot of fiber there's a present

25:19

more fiber in alie pop than there is in

25:21

a serving a metamucil so it's a it's a

25:23

it's a healthy dose of the fact that third

25:25

of your daily intake on on the alie pop

25:27

website under the uh... f a q it

25:30

says that is it okay to drink more than one

25:32

alie pop a day and

25:34

the answer is we recommend starting with one candidate

25:36

in working your way up to two or more

25:39

if it feels right tell me your strategy for

25:41

incorporating view for for for working your way up

25:44

if you're have a low floor fiber diet if

25:46

you drop nine grams of fiber in one sitting

25:48

work eighteen if you have to at a time

25:50

like there's a chance it

25:52

might just run right through you so we don't

25:54

you know what people have like a negative experience

25:57

alie pop is launched in the bay area by

25:59

ben goodwin Ben made his first sales by

26:01

driving around to health food stores in the area, convincing them

26:03

to stock his product. Steven was in

26:05

LA at the time, and as someone who had experience

26:07

with small beverage brands, he knew where Ollie Pop needed

26:09

to be to get a start in LA. If you

26:11

launch in on the West Coast, you generally go into,

26:14

you want to try to get into Erewhon

26:16

first. For folks who don't know,

26:18

Erewhon, it seems like what they're most famous for is

26:20

being the most expensive grocery store anybody's

26:22

ever been to. They have

26:24

like $25 smoothies. I

26:27

can tell you from my

26:29

time doing this that the second I

26:32

would tell people what I do or what I'm working

26:34

on or whatever it is, in the second we got

26:36

into Erewhon and I could say in the conversation, we

26:38

are now selling in Erewhon, the whole conversation changed because

26:40

in LA, it's just like a rite of passage. It's

26:42

kind of the first litmus

26:44

test of like, can you sell to like

26:47

the most curious, highest income

26:49

consumers? Now,

26:51

as we discussed, if you can sell to

26:53

those consumers, you'll have an advantage with retailers

26:55

across the country who want those higher income

26:57

folks and might cut you a break on slotting

27:00

fees to bring those customers in. But how

27:02

exactly did Ollie Pop get into Erewhon? Well,

27:04

here's another tip for small brands. It's

27:06

always good to hire someone who has connections. Like

27:09

to be completely honest, I like knew the owners

27:11

of Erewhon here in Los Angeles and I

27:13

literally showed up at their office at the

27:15

time in West Hollywood, which was above

27:18

their store and like brought

27:20

samples in. There are at least 200 different

27:22

beverage options at Erewhon and in 2019, Steven

27:25

says Ollie Pop was

27:27

one of the top sellers, which is great, but there

27:29

were only five Erewhon stores in LA at the time.

27:31

Now there are seven. Ollie Pop wanted

27:33

to get a lot bigger and if you

27:35

want to go in a more mass market

27:37

direction from Erewhon while still being in a

27:39

more upscale natural foods type store, the next

27:41

logical steps are whole foods and sprouts. But

27:44

in order to get into those stores, Ollie

27:46

Pop needed to knock something else out because

27:48

if you think about it, you don't see

27:50

any empty slots in grocery stores, right? So

27:52

every time a new product comes in, it's

27:54

replacing something else. Even though Ollie

27:57

Pop calls itself a soda, they're not in the soda

27:59

aisle. Competition was the product

28:01

that was sitting right next to them on the shelf.

28:03

We often sit in the

28:05

same sets as Kombucha. And

28:07

if you look back in history too, in 2018, 2019 when we

28:10

launched, there had been this like

28:13

massive boom in the Kombucha category and there

28:15

was a ton of brands and a lot

28:17

of stores that had full coolers that's just

28:19

dedicated to Kombucha. Like Kombucha, Alipap

28:21

is sold individually in the refrigerator aisle and

28:23

sells for about $250 a can.

28:25

Now, that's obviously more than a can of Coke, but

28:27

less than a bottle of Kombucha. And Steven

28:29

says at this time, the Kombucha bubble was starting

28:31

to burst. It felt like it was

28:34

starting to kind of like top out with consumers. The

28:36

product was like a little bit too expensive, maybe didn't

28:38

taste as good as it needed to to really scale

28:40

with the masses. So there was all these Kombucha brands

28:42

themselves and we were just making the argument like, let

28:44

us take out one of those and see how we

28:46

can compete with the rest of the Kombuchas. And that's,

28:48

you know, that was like a core component of our

28:50

strategy at the beginning, which is proving we could be

28:52

better than the bottom half of the Kombucha set. Alipap

28:55

became part of a new broader category called

28:58

functional beverages. These are beverages that say

29:00

they serve some function in addition to

29:02

hydrating you, some kind of purported health benefit.

29:05

The New York Times reported that from 2020 to 2021, functional beverages are

29:07

one of the fastest

29:10

growing non-alcoholic drink categories in the

29:12

U.S. And during COVID, when

29:14

so many things slowed down, small food brands

29:16

grew. Some of that had to do with

29:18

the trends we discussed earlier. But Steven says there

29:21

was another factor at play, a rush

29:23

of investment in food startups. There was

29:25

kind of this like artificial-ish bump during

29:27

COVID where everybody was online, everybody was

29:29

shopping, everybody was really into their health

29:31

at the time. And you saw this

29:33

boom in like Better For You, consumer

29:35

products online. And candidly, it made

29:38

a lot of businesses think they were more successful than they

29:40

were. And they raised money off of

29:42

those numbers. They used to be like, if you had a

29:44

deck for a beverage brand, you could raise a couple million bucks

29:46

a few years ago. And now it's like, you need traction,

29:48

you need to prove that there's actually product market fit. People

29:51

aren't just throwing money at a deck. You need to have

29:53

an actual beverage, maybe not just a deck. Yeah, that's a

29:55

good one. Yeah.

29:58

About a decade ago, new food and beverage.

30:00

brands started to take off and then bigger

30:02

food companies started buying up the smaller successful

30:05

ones like the way Campbell's bought Reo's pasta

30:07

sauce. Those acquisitions led more people

30:09

to start food companies and raise more money faster

30:11

because the market was heating up. At the end

30:13

of the day, the goal of most startup businesses

30:15

is to get acquired. And so as you have

30:18

more companies coming in and buying

30:20

businesses earlier, that then

30:23

incentivizes venture capitalists to come invest earlier. Alipop

30:25

was able to ride that wave. In 2019,

30:27

they raised $2.5 million in a seed funding

30:31

round. The next year they launched nationally in

30:34

Sprouts and in over half of Kroger stores

30:36

nationwide. In a few years, Alipop went from

30:38

a handful of stores in California to hundreds

30:40

across the country, which is great, but

30:43

it means they needed to make and

30:45

ship tons more soda. Filling large orders

30:47

requires a lot of capital and costs

30:49

are especially high when you're a small

30:51

food company. You can't take advantage of

30:53

economies of scale. Beverages in particular

30:55

are tough because they're very heavy, which makes them

30:57

expensive to ship. So let's say

31:00

you find a way to make more of your product while keeping costs

31:02

down. Now you can offer it to more

31:04

stores, get it on more shelves. Great, right? But

31:06

traditionally, that's when you hit those pricey

31:08

slotting fees. So how exactly do

31:10

you convince the grocery store to waive a slotting

31:12

fee? So if you're growing really fast, there's a

31:15

lot of consumer adoption for the product, there's a

31:17

lot of buzz on social media. And

31:19

you're a retailer and you don't have that product,

31:21

you're probably just leaving money on the table, right?

31:23

And so as a brand, you

31:25

have more negotiating leverage to not pay slotting

31:27

fees. If a retailer kind of wants and

31:30

needs your product, you also have to remember

31:32

that we're bringing, you know, new users to

31:34

a category in in a lot of cases.

31:36

And so people who maybe at Walmart, as

31:38

an example, we're buying traditional soda, and

31:40

we're not even looking at this, like digestive

31:42

health set are now moving there. And, you

31:45

know, candidly spending more money per can than

31:47

they are on a traditional soda. And

31:49

that also matters to the retail rate. So you're not

31:51

just like cannibalizing existing products, you're actually

31:53

bringing new people into new sets in the store.

31:56

And that's a very important metric to look at.

31:58

What you're saying is that a product

32:00

like Alipop may bring new customers into

32:03

these stores and get them shopping there

32:05

and then while they're there, they're going

32:07

to buy other things. Exactly.

32:10

Exactly right. Is it fair to say that

32:12

on average, the customers that a brand like

32:15

Alipop would bring in might have

32:18

more disposable income, might be bigger spending customers? If they're the

32:21

kind of people who are going to spend $2.50 for a

32:23

can of soda, then they may

32:25

spend more money on other products too. Correct.

32:28

That's a safe assumption to make, I think. As

32:34

Alipop grew, we got a lot of buzz on social media.

32:37

But you're only the hot item for so long, right?

32:39

What about the next new brand? The brand after that?

32:42

How does Alipop keep grocery stores interested in their

32:44

product and wanting it enough to the way you've

32:46

the slot in fees? Another tip,

32:48

it never hurts to have celebrities on your side.

32:53

We partnered with Camila Cabello, big pop star,

32:55

a year and a half ago and the

32:58

first thing we did with her, we actually

33:00

went into, with their permission, it's not

33:03

like something we just did out of nowhere, but

33:05

we went into a Walmart here in Burbank with

33:07

her and her team and we actually shut down

33:09

the produce section for an evening and filmed a

33:11

produced TikTok where she was walking down the aisles

33:14

and grabbing an Alipop and her outfit

33:16

would change with each can she grabbed. So

33:18

you know, and you very clearly you could

33:20

see the Walmart logo in the background of

33:22

that one. So

33:25

they love that one. We were

33:27

featured prominently in the Nicki Minaj

33:29

Barbie World music video earlier this

33:31

year that's now surpassed 100 million

33:33

views on YouTube and probably another

33:35

30 million. Is that like product

33:38

placement? Do you pay for that? Yeah, that was a

33:40

product placement partnership. I am friendly with

33:42

a production company here in Los Angeles that produces

33:44

a lot of the big music videos. They love

33:46

the team and they just thought we fit very

33:49

well in the aesthetic of the video and I

33:51

was kind of like this feels like a great hack

33:54

to like get us in the Barbie conversation position us

33:56

next to an artist like Nicki Minaj. People would hear

33:58

that and they would say, okay, great. Great, so

34:00

you do this stuff on social media, people

34:02

on social media see it, and then maybe it makes them more

34:04

likely to go to the store and want to buy that product.

34:07

But you're saying that also the stores themselves

34:09

see those things, and it might make them

34:12

more likely to want to carry your product.

34:14

Yeah, I mean, people, average TikTok users on

34:16

TikTok two hours a day at this point,

34:18

right? And there's well over

34:20

100 million Americans on there, and TikTok is a

34:22

huge part of our strategy. And

34:24

this isn't just helpful with customers. Grocery store

34:27

buyers, the people at the big retail chains

34:29

that decide what products to carry, they're

34:31

on social media too. The buyers are

34:33

often heavily impacted by what

34:36

their friends and family and their neighbors are talking

34:38

about, and so they notice this stuff, right? It's

34:40

definitely paid dividends. Today, Alibaba's in

34:42

over 30,000 grocery stores. As

34:44

they've grown, they've also had to change the

34:47

way they present themselves. We started out in

34:49

that, you know, very much focused on better

34:51

for you, digestive health, higher income demo, but

34:54

now we're nationwide at Walmart and Target and Kroger,

34:56

and we've kind of done a bunch of

34:58

consumer research and we've been trying

35:00

to realize people don't really want a health lecture from

35:02

their soda brand, they just want something that tastes good

35:05

and is maybe lower in sugar. So we are, I

35:07

think we've crossed this chasm out of just being like

35:09

a health and wellness product and to just

35:11

like almost like a lifestyle brand. We are

35:13

expanding the health and wellness set into

35:16

Nuke users who maybe never

35:18

kind of shop for these type of products before because

35:20

the product tastes so good. And

35:22

I think that's an important thing that a lot of early

35:25

stage brands miss is they want to make the perfect product

35:28

that is super perfect ingredients and all this

35:30

stuff, but that often results in it not

35:32

tasting as good and it being a higher

35:34

price point that is unattainable for a lot

35:36

of people. Back at

35:39

the grocery store, Professor John Stanton tells me

35:41

Ollie Pop's shift in strategy makes sense. He's

35:44

skeptical of any new product that focuses too much

35:46

on health claims. Consumers are

35:48

fickle. There'll always

35:50

be something that'll be in the

35:53

spotlight. Now it's like

35:55

good for your digestive health, et

35:57

cetera. One was vitamin D, not

35:59

two. long ago. I have to be vitamin

36:01

D. Eventually we're gonna see the

36:04

spotlight move away and people

36:07

are gonna be doing some other thing. So

36:10

if you're too reliant on the health trend of

36:13

the moment your food brand may not be built

36:15

to last especially if you're aiming for mass market

36:17

success and in general John

36:19

says a lot of companies don't understand the

36:21

factors that really influence purchasing decisions. These

36:24

things that people say are so important

36:27

are not the products that they like. Everyone

36:30

wants to be a good citizen

36:33

wants to buy sustainable but they're

36:35

not gonna pay more for it. So

36:37

being healthy and sustainable aren't really

36:40

the keys to long-term mass market

36:42

success. There's nothing in the food

36:45

area that I would say has

36:47

a guaranteed long lifespan of

36:49

new products. 70% of

36:53

new products fail and I'm on the the

36:55

low side. I mean there other people out

36:57

there saying 90%. So

37:00

how does a brand make it? John says

37:02

once they get in stores if it's gonna

37:04

stay there long term it won't be because

37:06

they have the best shelf placements or the

37:08

best packaging or the greatest health benefits or

37:11

the most sustainable manufacturing or celebrity endorsements. They

37:13

need to sell at the right price and

37:15

they need one thing above all else which

37:18

may seem obvious but John says it

37:20

bears repeating. I

37:22

just looked at some data that I've had

37:25

over the years and

37:27

taste has

37:29

been consistently the

37:32

number one attribute in

37:35

the food business. You couldn't keep a product

37:37

in business. Next

37:47

week our brand new podcast Deep Dish

37:49

launches. It's part detective show, part quest

37:52

through history, and part cooking class and

37:54

we are so excited about the hosts,

37:56

the chefs, recipe developers, and YouTube stars

37:58

Sola and Ham. Our

38:01

first episode is about a Mississippi Delta police detective

38:03

turned tamale king. His journey started when he was

38:05

called to the scene of a car accident on

38:07

Christmas Eve, where he found two dead

38:09

bodies and a trunk full of tamales. That

38:12

one's next week. You don't want to miss it. Meanwhile,

38:14

if you're looking for more sporkful episodes, check

38:16

out last week's show with Aubrey Gordon. Aubrey's

38:18

an author, fat activist, and the co-host of

38:20

the podcast Maintenance Phase. We talk

38:23

about New Year's resolutions, ozempic, and much more. That

38:25

episode's up now. Check it out. My

38:28

thanks to John Stanton, professor and chair

38:30

of the Food, Pharma, and Healthcare Department

38:32

at St. Joseph's University, and to Steven

38:35

Vigilante, director of Growth and Talent at

38:37

Ollipop. This show is produced

38:39

by me along with senior producer... Emma Morgenstern. ...and

38:41

producer... Andres O'Hara. ...editing by... Nora

38:43

Richie. Our engineer is... Jared O'Connell. ...music

38:45

help from Black Label Music. The sporkful

38:47

is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our

38:50

executive producers are Colin Anderson and Nora Richie.

38:53

Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. And

38:55

I'm Natombe Peters, living in Long Beach,

38:58

California, reminding you to eat more, eat

39:00

better, and eat more better. Time

39:14

for a quick break to talk about McDonald's.

39:16

Mornings are for mixing and matching at McDonald's.

39:18

For just $3, mix and match two of

39:20

your favorite For just $3, mix and match two of your favorite breakfast items, including

39:22

a sausage McMuffin, sausage biscuit, sausage burrito,

39:25

and hash browns. Make it even better

39:27

with a delicious medium iced coffee. With

39:29

McDonald's Mix and Match, breakfast items, including a sausage McMuffin. you can't

39:31

go wrong. Price and participation may vary. This

39:39

show is sponsored by BetterHelp. And I

39:41

really like the way BetterHelp is approaching this time

39:43

of year, because, you know, around New Year's, there's

39:46

all these resolutions and all this pressure to change

39:48

something. Like, you have to improve something about yourself,

39:50

which suggests that maybe there's something wrong with you.

39:53

But maybe BetterHelp is saying, no, that's not our

39:55

approach. What are some things you want to keep the

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same about you or your life in 2024? is

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just to expand on what you're already doing right. Therapy

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helps you find your strengths so you can ditch

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the extreme resolution and make changes that really stick.

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So Better Help's approach is really more like new

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year, same you. You get to know yourself

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better, you get to know what you're really

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good at, and then you double down on

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those things. So if you're thinking of starting

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and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.

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Celebrate the progress you've already

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made. Visit betterhelp.com slash

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