0:00

Hello and welcome to Sticky from the

0:13

Inside, the employee engagement podcast

0:15

that looks at how to build stickier

0:18

competition-smashing consistently

0:20

successful organizations from the inside

0:22

out. I'm your host, Andy Goram, and I'm

0:25

on a mission to help more businesses turn the lights on behind the eyes of their

0:29

employees, light the fires within them, and create tons more success for everyone.

0:39

This podcast is for all those who believe

0:42

that's something worth going after and

0:44

would like a little help and guidance in achieving that. Each episode we dive into

0:48

the topics that can help create what I

0:50

call stickier businesses. The sort of

0:53

businesses where people thrive and love to

0:56

work, and where more customers stay with

0:58

you and recommend you to others because

1:01

they love what you do and why you do it.

1:04

So if you want to take the tricky out of

1:06

being sticky, listen on. Okay, in a world

1:12

where the only constant is change, the

1:14

workplace is no exception. From the

1:17

seismic shifts in remote working to the

1:19

growing emphasis on work life balance, the

1:21

landscape of employment continues to

1:23

evolve right before our very eyes. And

1:26

with these changes come significant

1:28

challenges in both recruiting top talent

1:30

and, crucially, retaining them. I've

1:33

recently sat on an international panel of

1:36

employer branding experts to try and

1:39

answer the question, recruitment or

1:42

retention? Which, to be frank, was a

1:44

deliberately broad and ambiguous question,

1:47

but elicited such a diverse range of

1:50

opinion and insight depending on where in

1:52

the world you were based, it's clear we're

1:55

not all facing the same issues. But the

1:58

common threads throughout the discussion were that things are changing and a focus

2:02

on understanding where your business is

2:05

headed, what culture is needed to get there, and how you recruit, retain and

2:09

grow. Your people all need to be joined

2:12

up. Now. Today we're delving into a

2:16

fascinating angle of this evolving question of balancing recruitment and

2:20

retention. I'm joined by Darius Matuziak

2:23

from Macildowie, a firm that's not just

2:25

observed these changes, but has actively

2:28

rebranded in response to them. That's

2:30

right, they transition from being solely a

2:33

recruitment firm to a recruitment and

2:36

retention company, addressing head on the

2:38

challenges businesses face in this new

2:40

era. Now, what does this shift mean? Why

2:44

do it now? How does a company renowned for

2:48

recruitment pivot to emphasize retention

2:51

as well? Is this what's going to fix what

2:54

many have referred to as a broken

2:56

industry? And most importantly, what could

2:58

we learn from their journey that applies

3:01

to businesses and employees alike? These

3:04

are just a few of the tantalizing

3:07

questions we'll be exploring. So whether

3:09

you're a business leader, an HR

3:11

professional, or just someone passionate about the culture and dynamics of the

3:16

workplace, this is an episode I don't think you'll want to miss. So stay tuned

3:20

as we unravel the secrets to successful

3:22

recruitment and retention in today's

3:24

rapidly changing work environment. Welcome

3:26

to the show, Darius. Andy, thanks for

3:29

having me. It's a privilege to be part of the conversation and I love the work that

3:33

you do. Oh, bless you. That's very kind of you. Well, I'm fascinated with what you

3:39

and McEldawe have been doing, and I want

3:43

to find out more. But before you let me

3:45

kind of crawl all over that and you tell

3:47

us what's what, do me a favor, my friend.

3:50

Just give us a little bit of information about who you are, what your background

3:53

is. And actually what would be really interesting is why is this topic that

3:57

we're going to talk about today so important to you? Okay, cool. So, fast

4:02

approaching 14 years with Mackle Dowie.

4:05

Joined the business as a finance recruiter

4:08

where I operated a desk across

4:10

Northamptonshire and Milton Keynes for around about 18 months and then moved over

4:15

to build our HR markets. It was something

4:19

that was very new to the business at the time. So this is back in 2011, twelve ish.

4:25

And I was fortunate enough to be able to

4:27

work with some fantastic organizations

4:29

where I developed relationships. That meant we were able to build kind of a

4:34

consistent stream of revenue that afforded me the opportunity to build a team. I was

4:40

then in a position where I was able to

4:42

manage that team officially, then manage

4:45

the whole division. And then I was given a

4:50

chance to actually become a director of a

4:53

couple of different divisions. That went

4:55

well. So the extra division that I took on

4:58

there was sales and marketing, and then it

5:01

would have been about five or six years

5:04

ago, I was able to step up again and be

5:08

the managing director for the south

5:10

offering of Mackle Derby. So all of our

5:13

offerings, all of our divisions, should I say, across the south, geographic. And

5:16

then about just over a year ago, I moved

5:20

over to become MD of our partnerships

5:23

offering. So our partnerships offering is

5:26

essentially everything that sits outside

5:29

of the recruitment side of the business.

5:32

So we help businesses from a retention

5:35

perspective. And that's done really through three key streams. The first being

5:39

that we help them to actually build and

5:43

change and develop their cultures. The

5:45

second being that once you've got a great

5:48

culture and set of behaviors and sense of

5:50

purpose, you want to articulate it. So we

5:52

help define what the EVP looks like for

5:55

those businesses, creating all of the

5:58

assets and the marketing material. And

6:01

then you've got to go out to market and promote your brand. And the final stream

6:06

that we help our customers with is

6:08

employer branding. So I think the second

6:10

part of your question was, why is this

6:13

topic so important to me? I think it's

6:16

important to me for many reasons, and most of it is actually born out of the time

6:19

that I've spent working in HR recruitment,

6:22

learning about organizations and the

6:24

importance of getting behaviors and

6:27

purpose and culture. Right. And

6:30

predominantly, I think it's born out of the fact that so many organizations

6:33

struggle with it. There's very much a

6:38

mindset around if a business wants to make

6:41

investment and it's a piece of machinery,

6:43

and they can see that that machinery will spit back a return within three years. The

6:49

CFO has got no issue signing that off. But when it comes to something that is a

6:52

little bit more organic and soft and

6:55

fluffy and arguably at times not as

6:58

measurable, although I really would push

7:01

back on that thought process these days,

7:05

that it becomes harder for businesses to

7:07

buy in, shall we say, to that level of

7:11

investment and really focus on having a

7:13

people first culture. But I think

7:15

predominantly, if you can do that, your

7:17

organization will be more successful. Businesses run on people, customers stay

7:22

loyal because of the people that they deal with, and profits grow as a result of that

7:26

loyalty. So for me, it is born out of

7:30

helping our customers be the best version that they can be and having an engaged and

7:35

happy workforce that produces results not

7:37

only for the business, but for their customer base. Yeah, I mean, I just think

7:41

it's fascinating because traditionally,

7:44

solely recruitment focused as a business,

7:48

and then the three pieces of building a

7:51

culture, defining an EVP and then

7:54

promoting that on an employer brand basis,

7:58

they're big things, they're big topics.

8:01

And to pivot from that recruitment piece

8:06

to recruitment and retention, I just think

8:08

is fascinating. And hopefully we will get

8:10

into some of the nuts and bolts about that

8:13

as we go on with the conversation, I just

8:15

want to cover off maybe a bit of the

8:19

context here, which may explain some of

8:22

the reasons why the company changed and

8:25

where your focus is now put. I mean, I

8:28

wasn't incredibly polite at the start when

8:30

I talk about the recruitment industry

8:33

being broken. Now, look, some of that

8:36

comes from my own experience, but I don't think I'm alone in sort of saying those

8:40

words. But where do you think? Well,

8:44

firstly, ask the right question. Is that

8:47

fair? Where do you think it comes from? If

8:49

it is, or why do you think it's not fair?

8:52

If it isn't fair, explain a bit of that

8:54

for me. Darius. Wow, that's a big

8:57

question. So is the recruitment industry

9:00

broken? I think it's more broken than it

9:04

has been previously, but I don't

9:07

necessarily think it's ever been unbroken.

9:10

And I think there are reasons for that,

9:13

because when you think about why a company

9:16

might need to keep going to market, very

9:19

often it stems from the relationship the

9:23

individual might have with the line manager, and therefore that's why they

9:26

leave. It might stem from a lack of belief

9:29

in the leadership team. Do they trust

9:32

them? Do they get a sense of direction?

9:35

And is that direction inspiring? Are they

9:38

in a position where they feel that they

9:41

have got a visibility of where their

9:44

career is going, when it's going to get to

9:47

where they want it to get to, and what the key milestones are for them to hit, to be

9:52

able to keep moving forwards within the

9:55

organization. And very often,

9:57

unfortunately, the answer to those questions are falling on the negative side

10:01

of things. So is recruitment broken? I

10:06

think it's largely broken because the

10:09

relationship between the employee and the

10:12

employer is lacking an element of equity,

10:18

if you like, for some of the reasons that

10:21

I've mentioned. And I think what we've seen happen in the run up to Covid and

10:26

then be accelerated after that. Is this

10:31

real emphasis on people wanting to work

10:33

for businesses where they can align with

10:37

the purpose of the organization, or they

10:41

feel that there is a cultural empathy

10:43

towards what the values are of that

10:45

business and how people do business

10:48

together within the company, how they

10:52

communicate, how they give feedback, how

10:55

they disagree on things as well. And

11:00

therefore, I think as a result of us being

11:03

in a position as recruiters, where an

11:06

organization might come to us and say, we

11:08

need somebody now, they're on a month's notice, they've got two weeks holiday to

11:13

use, we've got to get a bum on a seat. I

11:15

think the argument for recruitment being

11:17

broken comes because it becomes such a

11:20

reactive exercise. So I think the big thing is that businesses really could be

11:25

investing more effectively in essentially

11:27

workforce planning, talent planning and so on and so forth. And unfortunately,

11:33

business needs very often become higher on

11:37

the list, shall we say, of the agenda, I.

11:40

E. Urgent and important. And that kind of

11:44

talent planning generally sits underneath that as important, but never gets to the

11:48

top of the list. So we're in a position

11:52

very often as recruiters where things have

11:55

got to move quickly, there's a panic.

11:59

Potentially the compromise might have to

12:03

happen with regard to either behaviors or

12:06

skills. And generally, I think you can

12:10

then get into the psychology side of

12:12

things with regard to line managers being

12:15

loaded with bias, particularly ones

12:20

whereby people like to recruit in their own mold. Right. And I think all of these

12:24

things have an effect. So there's no

12:26

silver bullet answer to your question.

12:28

Okay. I mean, I think it's really interesting, a few things that you sort of

12:31

said there. I think the planning issue.

12:33

Yeah, I can understand the planning piece

12:36

causing then a, I guess, concentrated

12:40

effort to fill a vacancy, which may lead

12:42

to the bit that I think people experience,

12:45

and which is why it's fascinating, I think, with the switch or the pivot that

12:49

you've got here is that maybe that pace is

12:53

driving a lack of personal human

12:56

connection in that recruitment cycle.

12:59

Maybe it feels like you're being fed into a machine, and out you come the other

13:03

side, unless you're in some sort of high level executive search where there's a

13:06

different number of people being looked at, and yet the things that you talk about

13:11

and the pivot that you're making into the

13:13

retention side of the business and the

13:15

language that you've used so far today has

13:17

been very much about connection and people

13:21

and behavior and certainty. All these kind

13:24

of great things I'm a massive advocate

13:26

for. And I think this is the thing that's

13:30

really piqued my interest in what you guys

13:33

are doing in blending something that

13:36

perhaps, to some has felt a little

13:39

impersonal to the other side of, I guess,

13:42

the more personal agenda at work about,

13:45

well, what does it really take to retain

13:48

talent? And that hits on a lot of the notes that you've already talked about,

13:51

and I'm sure we'll hit on more as we

13:55

prepare to think about what the cause for

13:58

the rebranding was and where the focus

14:01

sort of came from and what that looks like

14:03

today. When you look at the changing

14:08

dynamics of the sort of labor pool, if you

14:10

like, or the dynamics of the workplace in

14:14

general, Daris, from someone who's actually in it trying to help people find

14:18

the right place to work, and now trying to

14:20

find ways to help businesses properly

14:23

engage with their people and have an

14:25

assemblance of an authentic employer brand. What are those changes? What are

14:30

the difficulties and hurdles that businesses are really facing, from your

14:34

perspective? So I think one of the big

14:37

things that we hear consistently from a

14:41

whole range of organizations, regardless

14:43

of size or sector, is difficulty in

14:47

actually keeping engaged the sub two year

14:51

cohort. So in a very generalized sense,

14:55

these might be the people that are classed as Gen Z. And when you actually look at

15:00

their belief systems, what's important to

15:03

them? How do they view the world? What's

15:06

the relationship that they have with an

15:08

employer? It differs hugely from those

15:11

that are in leadership roles. So perhaps

15:14

your Gen X's and certainly your baby

15:17

boomers. I guess on one side of the fence

15:20

in those leadership roles, you've got a

15:23

cohort that have been used to a command and control style. And then in the Gen Z

15:29

pool, you've got this desire to be

15:32

coached. You've got this need for

15:34

autonomy. You've got a view of. Because

15:39

they're so technologically proficient,

15:42

what on earth is this nine to five

15:44

concept? Why do I need to travel to an

15:46

office? I could do this from anywhere at

15:49

any time, within reason. Obviously, it

15:53

doesn't stand for every organization. So I

15:56

think what we're talking about here maybe

15:59

is kind of a lack of understanding between

16:01

these two generations of those that run the business and those that have got

16:08

informational power and over time will

16:11

obviously become more influential within

16:13

the organization. I think a pretty big

16:17

thing. Sorry, you're going to say something? No, I'm just sitting here. I

16:23

ran only last week, a generational cohort

16:26

theory kind of workshop with people. And I

16:29

think it's really interesting what you say, and this is becoming quite a thing, I

16:33

think, for some businesses to try and understand the relationships. Whether or

16:38

not you're fully bought into the theory of

16:40

generational cohort theory, it cannot

16:43

apply to everybody in those cohorts, but it gives some indications. I think the

16:48

real thing is using it as another lens to

16:50

see people as individuals. But having said

16:53

that, I thought what was very interesting about what you said and what the guys were

16:57

saying, and there was a lot of Gen Z's in

17:00

this session alongside a mix of other

17:04

generations, was this sort of paradox

17:06

within Gen Z of wanting to be driven by

17:11

purpose, connected by values, but also

17:15

recognizing, I'm not here forever, and

17:17

actually, this is just giving me some cash right now. And, I mean, this was a

17:21

hospitality sector conversation at the

17:23

time, so there's some biases within that.

17:26

But there does seem to be this sort of

17:28

paradox that's fascinating. I wonder about

17:31

other things that are generally in the

17:34

ether, right? Yeah, I mean, there are some

17:37

big plays, in my opinion, that are going

17:39

on. Obviously, there's AI, and that's the

17:44

hot topic on everybody's lips at the moment. But I think the key consideration

17:50

that we need to give to AI, particularly

17:52

on the backdrop of some of what we've just spoken about with regard to Gen Z's

17:56

working preferences, is that as this gains

17:59

momentum and becomes more embedded in

18:02

everyday operations, the thought process

18:06

is that by 2026, AI will save an average

18:11

of two days per week for every employee.

18:14

Now that doesn't mean to say that we're going to be dropping to three day weeks,

18:17

but it does mean to say that the focus of

18:21

what people do will shift. So I think the

18:25

likelihood of the administrative side of

18:27

the job will remaining is going to be

18:32

somewhat minimal. AI will be able to sweep

18:35

up a lot of that lower level, kind of

18:42

repetitive task types, types of work. So

18:46

you've got that piece at play potentially

18:49

running parallel to that. You've got more

18:54

momentum, I would suppose, around the four day week. I was going to ask you about

18:58

that because I wanted to know whether that

19:01

was real or not, because you can never

19:05

tell with the headlines around these things. There are times when four day week

19:09

seems like it's going to be inevitable.

19:11

There's guys who've been doing it for years. There's people I've had on the

19:14

podcast who have only ever done a four day

19:17

week, and it works brilliantly for them.

19:20

But is it one of those things that's a headline grabber, but is it really

19:23

graining traction? So what do you see on

19:26

the inside? I would say it's still at

19:28

concept stage, largely, but the adoption

19:31

rate is increasing in momentum all the

19:35

time. Can I say hand on heart that we've

19:38

seen it with a lot of our customer base?

19:41

No, not yet. Are they asking questions

19:44

about it? Yes. Is it the majority? No. Is

19:46

it the minority? But is it growing?

19:49

Absolutely. And just to put some meat on

19:52

the bones around the four day week piece,

19:55

I've had the privilege of meeting with the

19:58

CEO of the four day week global chap

20:01

called Dale Wellehan. Fascinating guy. And

20:05

in the conversation that I had with him on my own podcast, he gave some pretty big

20:10

insights to me that started to convince me

20:13

that this is going to go somewhere. And

20:16

what he spoke about was, you've obviously

20:18

got the carbon targets that need to be hit

20:21

in the future, and the government are

20:23

showing a real interest in the four day

20:26

week with a view to that. Plus flexible

20:29

working being a way of helping us achieve

20:32

the numbers that we need to hit. He then

20:35

talked about, if you actually look at the

20:38

spending data across different times of

20:41

the year, people spend the most in local

20:45

economies, and therefore local economies do their best over the summer periods,

20:50

when people are on school holidays, out of

20:52

work, going on trips, et cetera. And

20:57

obviously, if I'm in the office five days

20:59

a week, I've got my Amazon Prime, I can

21:02

order things that way. Might be able to buy a bit off eBay, but none of that is

21:06

putting money back into the local economy.

21:09

Whereas if I've got a day off and I walk to the park, I might stop and get a paper,

21:12

I may pick up a coffee, a loaf of bread, so on and so, so forth. And you've got

21:16

this piece there around helping the

21:19

smaller organizations get back on their feet, post Covid, get the money

21:23

circulating and so on and so forth. And

21:26

then the third piece that he spoke to me

21:28

about was taking a view on the healthcare

21:31

system. And when you look at the strain

21:33

that that healthcare system is experiencing at the moment, many of the

21:38

reasons that patients are in hospital are

21:40

born out of lifestyle choices that are

21:43

made as a result of being burned out,

21:47

stressed, overworked, et cetera. And when

21:52

you look at the studies of those companies

21:55

that have been involved in the four day

21:57

week and what that's done for the well being of their employees, you can see the

22:04

potential weight that would be taken off

22:06

the healthcare system if it became a

22:11

thing. So for me, hearing those three big

22:16

things, coupled with the savings that AI

22:19

are going to make on the working week, I

22:22

don't know when it's going to happen, but

22:24

we've gone from a seven day week to a six day week to a five day week. I don't see

22:28

any reason why we don't go to four to

22:30

three, et cetera. But whether it's in my working life or not, I have no idea. It's

22:34

fascinating, isn't it? I mean, there's a

22:37

big context of change, and the things

22:39

you've just talked about are symptomatic of that, and which is why it still feels a

22:42

bit messy and there generally feels like

22:46

still a lack of confidence in business to

22:48

make definitive decisions on some of these

22:51

things going forward and 2030, we've still

22:54

got that skills and people gap globally.

22:57

That's coming with the shift of boomers and what have you. So, my goodness me,

23:01

what a context we've got. So I think this

23:04

plays to. I'd love to think it plays to my

23:08

passion around. Look, this is why the

23:10

importance of culture and retention is

23:13

incredibly important, because if a labor

23:16

pool is shrinking, if business context and

23:19

landscape is changing, it's going to be

23:23

harder to recruit, I think, going forward.

23:26

Right. And certainly recruit for specific

23:28

talent that you want, with the skills that

23:32

you need, which is wherefore. Growth,

23:34

development, retention, I think, become even more important, which is why I'm

23:37

fascinated with the move that you guys have made. And also, I can't lie, Darius,

23:43

and maybe we've got a kindred spirit here with a marketing background, but it's

23:46

hitting another button of mine. So as well as all the cultural buttons, it's hitting

23:50

my brand button right, which I'm

23:52

fascinated by. So this rebranding decision

23:56

to go from solely recruitment to openly

23:59

saying recruitment and retention, where's

24:02

it come from? Why make the shift? So for

24:07

us, this is a trend that preceded the

24:12

pandemic where EVP and employer brands

24:16

were becoming more important and more

24:18

prominent. And during the pandemic, if I

24:24

get really specific with this, it will paint the picture. In March 2020, we got

24:29

sent home in April 2020, our business

24:33

generates circa 100 jobs per week. We had,

24:37

I think it was eight jobs on in the whole

24:39

of April. So there's nothing like that

24:43

kind of situation to shape the mind, to

24:46

force innovation and to really create a

24:50

sense of urgency. So I would like to think

24:55

that whilst we'd had informal

24:58

conversations, idea generation sessions,

25:02

this was always in the pipeline. We very

25:06

often, and please take this in the right way, have the conversation. Thank God for

25:10

Covid, because it forced us to move more

25:13

quickly. So why did we actually do it?

25:16

Well, when you think about what an

25:18

organization needs to improve, if you can

25:23

hold or hire and hold and develop great

25:27

people, ultimately you'll be in a position

25:30

where you can charge the customer more because you've got more expertise in your

25:34

workforce, you should be able to gain

25:37

greater levels of loyalty from your

25:40

customers, which obviously result in

25:42

repeat business. Increased, spend extra

25:45

market share. Clearly your retention

25:50

levels will improve because people feel

25:53

that they have got momentum and a sense of

25:55

direction with where they are staying. And

25:58

ultimately, if we're going to talk to the

26:01

cfos of the world out there, the bottom line is going to look more pretty. So our

26:08

utopian vision, if you like, is that we want to help our customers to achieve

26:13

those things. If you look at it through

26:15

the lens of ourselves, selfishly, what we

26:18

want is for our customers to recognize us

26:21

as the go to most trusted talent partner

26:24

in the market. A company that are

26:28

ingrained in their people strategy and

26:33

business strategy conversations, a company

26:36

that really understand the purpose,

26:38

behaviors and cultures, and a company that

26:40

have got foresight as to where and how

26:43

they're likely to need to recruit so that we can give a better level of service. The

26:48

counterintuitive piece with all of this, I guess, is that it's better for us for

26:55

businesses to hold people and grow than it

26:57

is for them to keep needing to recruit.

26:59

Because the likelihood is we'll be recruiting more often for those companies

27:03

that are growing. I mean, that is

27:05

interesting, isn't it because in some

27:08

assemblance of history you could look back

27:11

at this and go, this is what we should

27:13

have always been focused on. Or wow, are

27:18

we changing the bias of where revenue

27:21

comes from for the business going forward?

27:24

There's a strategic decision here about

27:26

where the balance is. I mean, interestingly enough, where is the balance

27:31

with clients right now between recruitment

27:33

and retention activity. In terms of where

27:38

the focus is? The HR focus is definitely

27:42

around retention right now with regard to

27:46

what's keeping them awake at night. They

27:50

are seriously worried, as I said earlier, about the sub two year cohort. They

27:55

recognize that they've got a whole host of

27:57

people that are towards the latter stages of their career that are potentially

28:01

looking at and going to take early retirement and hit retirement age and.

28:05

Leave a skill gap behind them and. Leave a skill gap behind. And we've all seen the

28:09

data around the lack of 16 to 24 year olds

28:12

that are coming into the workforce. So

28:15

retention is kind of a real strategic play

28:17

for businesses right now. But the reality

28:21

is that on a day to day basis, it's still

28:24

really bloody hard to recruit people. You

28:27

only have to look at the longer term

28:29

graphs of vacancies to see that we are

28:33

still well above pre Covid levels of the

28:35

number of job openings out there. And

28:38

obviously unemployment is still really

28:41

low. So that, coupled with technological

28:46

developments and therefore the creation of

28:48

skills gaps means that this is a bit of a

28:53

diplomatic answer. But actually I think the two things are real kind of front and

28:58

center when it comes to what's keeping HR teams awake at night. So when we compute

29:06

this mix of there's still been plenty of

29:10

acres, maybe not at the boost peak that we

29:12

had before. The story that it's harder to

29:16

recruit people for roles, and the fact

29:19

that we're saying, listen, recruitment is really, really important because there's

29:23

going to be less people to recruit, it's

29:26

almost counterintuitive. It's suggesting

29:30

to me at least, that we've got people in

29:34

jobs just present just hanging on, not

29:36

necessarily doing what they want, not necessarily committed to an organization.

29:40

So maybe we haven't got the right focuses.

29:43

If recruitment is tough and retention is

29:47

key, but we've got people in jobs and we

29:50

were finding it hard to recruit. That just

29:53

doesn't compute to me. It doesn't make

29:55

sense. How do you make sense of it? So

29:58

here's my view. What a lot of businesses

30:03

find themselves in the situation of is

30:07

before COVID they started to become aware

30:11

of and buy into the importance of the

30:14

creation of an EVP, they recognize that

30:20

values sit at the center of that. And

30:24

therefore the values that were created

30:26

were created in a completely different

30:28

context to what we find ourselves in now.

30:32

So what we're seeing is a lot of organizations are running across sorry,

30:36

running with an old set of values in a new

30:41

context. As a result, you've got this

30:45

disillusionment of what this business

30:47

talks about. Doesn't speak to my heart and

30:50

mind. And therefore you've got some of

30:53

this narrative potentially around quiet quitting. I think that you were to there,

30:56

which is come in and do the minimal on the

30:59

job. I think on the other side of it, on the recruitment side of the fence, because

31:04

of what we've just spoken about with regard to the volume of vacancies out

31:08

there, you've still got a really strong

31:12

play from the candidate versus the

31:16

organization, I. E. The candidate has got

31:19

options to look at. And one thing that

31:22

we've not touched on so far is this RTO

31:26

narrative, the return to office piece,

31:29

which I think there's a difference between

31:32

what we're seeing in the news and what

31:34

we're seeing as a recruiter firsthand. And

31:37

I'd say. I'd describe it as follows. The

31:40

news has oversimplified things. When I read the headlines and articles, to me it

31:46

implies 95% of businesses are back in the

31:50

office five days a week when I speak to

31:55

customers. And when we speak to customers as a wider business, we're obviously

32:00

getting questions about that because most

32:03

people's source of news is the news

32:05

channels. What are other businesses doing?

32:08

How's it working? But if I had to put an

32:11

anecdotal percentage on the number of

32:14

organizations that have shifted the

32:16

needle, I'd say it's probably somewhere

32:18

between 15 and 20, maybe 25 at the most.

32:22

And the shifting of the needle looks

32:24

different for everybody. For some

32:27

businesses it might be we were fully remote. We're now asking people to come in

32:30

for meetings. For others it might be we

32:33

were two days in the office, we're now

32:35

asking people to do a third. And for the

32:38

rest, it's somewhere in between or

32:41

something that resembles the two examples that I've said. So with that in mind,

32:47

you've got a pool of talent that is having

32:50

the conversation with themselves of I

32:52

proved for three years that I can be as

32:55

effective and as efficient, working from

32:58

home, working from a coffee shop, having

33:02

autonomy. And now you're saying to me I've

33:05

got to spend 40 minutes driving to the

33:08

office to come in and sit on teams calls

33:11

for most of the day and then drive home.

33:13

So I'm going to lose. Call it between an

33:16

hour and a half and 2 hours a day. I'm going to be spending money on petrol that

33:20

I didn't spend for three years. I might

33:23

have to pay for parking. I'm only coming

33:25

in and sitting in meeting rooms anyway for

33:28

periods of the day because most of the stuff is now on teams. Oh, and by the way,

33:33

my mortgage has gone up 400 quid a month,

33:36

my car lease is about to expire, and what

33:38

used to get me a car for, I don't know,

33:41

let's make it up 400 pounds a month will

33:43

now cost me 650. Oh, my food bill's gone

33:45

up 20%. So I think the play here is that

33:51

people are aware of that and they're

33:53

picking and choosing wisely based on the

33:57

culture that they see and the reality of

34:02

the volume of autonomy that they may or

34:04

may not have within a role. Yeah, I mean,

34:06

it sounds to me like we've got this

34:09

retention being because in the main, we're

34:12

losing people through a lack of relevant

34:16

purpose, value, connection, maybe growth.

34:19

I'm sure salary will be in there because

34:22

businesses are constrained at the moment

34:25

because a lot are still, I think, in survival mode. And then from a recruitment

34:30

perspective, it sounds like it is in the

34:32

candidates favor, which is why businesses

34:35

find it hard. But flexibility is more

34:38

important than ever because people have made big changes in the last few years to

34:41

their lives. Yeah. Flexibility is right up

34:43

there with pay. I think the one thing that I've maybe not mentioned here, and it is

34:48

on the subject of pay, is that we all

34:51

anticipated the great resignation back in

34:54

2021 because we'd seen it happen overseas.

34:57

And what we saw most of our customers do

35:00

is dish out pay rises to try and stave off

35:04

the risk of losing their top talent. And

35:08

you've obviously now got a situation where

35:10

you've had 21 and 22, which were the

35:14

wonder years for most organizations. You

35:17

could not make money regardless of what

35:19

sector you were in. And in 23 businesses.

35:23

Well, 23. 24 businesses set their budgets

35:26

for growth, obviously. Inflationary

35:30

pressures, recalibration of the economy,

35:32

et cetera, has meant that many

35:35

organizations are behind on their budgeted

35:37

revenue, but they've increased the cost

35:40

basis. So you've got this view from

35:44

businesses to their employees, of, we paid

35:47

you more, where's our return? We're

35:49

getting pressure from our shareholders.

35:52

You haven't stepped up in terms of delivery, but we've given you more money.

35:56

And I think maybe some of that's what's driving this return to office conversation

36:01

as well. Well, I think this will rage on

36:03

and continue, I'm sure, until we find our

36:08

way forward. If I can just pull us back to

36:11

the changes that you've seen internally.

36:13

Right. With a focus on retention. So

36:17

what's that really meant for the business

36:20

focus? And what do you see as the benefits

36:24

for McEldawe going forwards, but also for

36:26

clients? Yeah. So the kind of key

36:31

differences from our consultant population

36:33

that we've seen are a differentiation

36:37

versus our competitors because

36:40

unfortunately, the recruitment industry is

36:44

quite one dimensional in the way that it

36:47

generates revenue. And the conversation that you very often hear internal

36:52

recruiters being on the end of is, have you got any jobs? Have you got any jobs?

36:54

Have you got any jobs? Have you got any jobs? Crikey. You're the 15th person to

36:58

call me today asking that. So the

37:02

differentiation piece being that we're able to have more strategic, high level,

37:05

business focused conversations that aren't

37:08

just, can I take something from you?

37:11

There's more value in there. There's more

37:14

of an information share around what we're

37:17

seeing in the market, what other organizations are doing. I suppose the key

37:21

being in the job title recruitment

37:24

consultant. We're being more consultative.

37:27

Yeah. So I think that's a key part of it.

37:29

The benefit to the customer is that the

37:34

relationships are deepening and the level of empathy is growing and therefore the

37:41

trust is being enhanced, which allows

37:45

conversations to happen which are a little bit more future focused with regard to

37:50

which jobs might need to be talent

37:52

pipeline for and when and what type of

37:55

people could be suitable for them. So

37:58

there's more of, I would say, a proactive

38:01

approach that we're able to give to our

38:04

customers, which essentially alleviates

38:07

that level of stress of, and I alluded to

38:10

it earlier, somebody handing in the notice

38:13

with a month's notice and maybe having one

38:17

to two weeks holiday to use. They're almost gone out of the business straight

38:20

away in that scenario. And it becomes panic stations. Absolutely. Now you're

38:26

sort of like, I guess, deepening your

38:28

relationship with clients and you're

38:30

having a look and in many cases trying to

38:33

help them with retention efforts. Have you

38:35

have a sense of how many companies are

38:39

really on focus with the retention thing

38:41

and doing things effectively and how many

38:44

are kind of like, oh, my goodness, we need

38:46

to focus on retention. What do we do?

38:48

What's the split that you're seeing? Wow. Good question. What I would say is you

38:54

tend to find that those with deeper levels

38:57

of resources are further ahead and those

39:02

with deeper levels of resources tend to be

39:05

the bigger players in the market, blue

39:08

chips, plcs, large organizations, and that

39:13

obviously creates a ripple effect because

39:15

they are seen as best practice. So those

39:17

businesses that are small and medium in terms of their enterprise size will very

39:23

often model the way that they're working

39:26

on those bigger businesses, but have to do it on a shoestring budget. So if I was to

39:31

put a percentage on it, I would probably

39:33

say that you're looking at about 5% of the

39:36

market doing this brilliantly and about

39:41

15% starting to do something with it. And

39:44

the rest are in that position of going,

39:47

we've got to do something about retention. Where do we start with this? What does our

39:51

focus need to be? What are the questions we need to answer and how do we go about

39:57

ensuring that we're improving the situation? Well, in some respects that's

40:04

good that people are focusing on it and

40:06

now starting hopefully to make some

40:09

headway. It's a shame that it's taken an

40:13

environment like we're living in now to kind of, I guess, bring it into more

40:17

focus. And before I sort of try and pull

40:20

all this together, what's it felt like

40:24

inside McEldawey then for you and the rest

40:28

of the guys there, Darius, in having made

40:31

this switch from being the one focus to a

40:35

much wider focus now, what's it actually

40:38

done? How has it changed? Mcel Dowie do

40:42

you know what, and this is a soft and

40:44

fluffy answer, but I think it's become

40:46

more fun and enjoyable and it's created

40:49

more of a learning experience for

40:53

certainly those that are at the beginning of their career. With Mackle Dowie, I was

40:57

always of the view when I started out that I would learn most of what I needed to

41:01

learn through my customer base. And I

41:05

think this shift is only going to enhance

41:08

that and improve the capability of our

41:11

people. So fun is the word that springs to

41:16

mind. A bit of diversity always adds a bit

41:19

of fun. Now then, my friend, we get to the

41:22

bit in the show called sticky notes,

41:25

right, where I'm asking you to sort of like summarize some of the things that

41:29

we've talked about today. So if we hone it

41:31

in and I ask you to put three little bits

41:34

of advice that you could fit on three

41:36

sticky notes that you would give to anyone

41:41

looking at dealing with the current recruitment and retention challenges, what

41:45

bits of advice would you leave for them?

41:48

We haven't touched on this in our

41:50

conversations so far, so throw a slight

41:53

curveball out there, but I think

41:56

organizations need to start asking their

41:58

people, how they feel, what's concerning

42:01

them, what's important to them, what do

42:04

they care about. And they need to start

42:07

doing something with those results. Part

42:11

of that piece that we touched on with baby

42:13

boomers and Gen Z is this lack of

42:16

understanding, lack of communication, command and control style. And I think

42:22

that will go some way to building levels

42:25

of engagement and trust. But the key thing

42:27

is, and I mentioned it, you have to do

42:29

something with the results. So that would

42:31

be a great starting point for me. I think

42:35

secondly, you've got to be in a position

42:37

where you've got alignment with your

42:39

leadership team, and I think businesses

42:42

should be doing work on that. And as part

42:46

of that piece of work, they need to start

42:48

looking at what their new world vision,

42:52

mission, values, purpose and behaviors

42:56

look like and start articulating that both

43:00

internally and externally. And I think that's the one big thing that's very often

43:03

missing when it comes to the EVP. People

43:07

think it's all about going out into the market and they forget about repeat,

43:11

repeat, repeat on the messaging to those

43:14

that work with the business. So I think

43:17

that's a real critical part as well. And

43:20

the third piece is really to understand

43:26

that from the perspective of when you go

43:29

out into the market to recruiter role, you

43:33

are still in a very competitive landscape

43:36

where the candidate has got and is looking

43:39

at other options. And this isn't the

43:43

apprentice, where you're going to sit down and grill them and decide whether you want

43:48

them. I'd argue it's more like a first

43:51

date where you've got to have an open and

43:54

honest conversation and you've got to look for commonality, shared vision, an

44:00

appropriate set of differences to decide

44:02

whether there's a sense of a working relationship there before you start to get

44:06

into that kind of skills and capability

44:09

analysis. So I think they'd probably be my

44:11

three things. I love that. Well, I love

44:14

all of them. I particularly like sticky two because that's good for me selfishly,

44:19

because that's some of the best work that

44:22

I get to do. And I think that whole

44:27

shaping that background for an EVP can be

44:30

easily overlooked. We get into all the

44:32

packages and salaries and everything else,

44:35

but if we don't know who we are, where we're going, why people should stay with

44:39

us, and we're really strong at

44:41

communicating those things throughout the organization. I think you itch yourself

44:46

into a whole load of hot mess as a result,

44:49

and that's why we're losing people lack of

44:51

connection. So thank you for those three. My friend. If people want to check out a

44:55

bit more about Mackledowie, where should they go? The website mackledowy.com. My

45:01

LinkedIn profile. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm

45:04

there every day. I also run a podcast

45:07

called the Happy Workplace Project, which is all about sharing insights into how

45:12

organizations are creating great cultures and the lessons that they've learned as

45:16

leaders along the way. So they would be

45:19

the three areas that you can find out more. I would say brilliant. I will put

45:23

all of that stuff in the show notes, my friend. Darius, thanks so much for coming

45:27

on, mate. I mean, I'm really genuinely

45:30

interested in how the company has kind of

45:33

made this move and what it's doing. Well,

45:35

I suspect we'll see more following the suit. I don't know. We will see. But

45:38

thanks so much for coming on. And thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed the

45:42

conversation and keep up the good work.

45:44

The podcast is fantastic. Oh, bless you. I

45:47

appreciate that, my friend. Well, you take care. Cheers, Andy. Cheers. Okay,

45:52

everyone, that was Darius Matuziak from

45:56

Mackledawe. If you'd like to find out a bit more about him or any of the things

45:59

we've talked about today, please go ahead and check out the show notes. So that

46:07

concludes today's episode. I hope you've

46:10

enjoyed it, found it interesting, and

46:12

heard something maybe that will help you

46:15

become a stickier, more successful

46:17

business from the inside going forward. If

46:20

you have, please like, comment and

46:23

subscribe. It really helps. I'm Andy

46:26

Goreham, and you've been listening to the sticky from the Inside podcast. Until next