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1:37

Man Cave as an ice cave. It's

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good. I like that. Thanks.

1:44

Eddie? Hey, man. Hey,

1:47

here we are to talk about the finale of True Detective Night Country, which just

1:49

aired if you're tuning in on Sunday night. Come

1:52

with us. That

1:54

what happens with our theme music start. Eddie,

1:56

would you like to have a general

1:58

conversation about this show? You're detective

2:00

night country before well talk a little bit about

2:02

what happened I mean, I don't know. I don't

2:04

know where your head is that with this. I

2:06

want to be very clear This did not land

2:09

for me. This did not work for me. I

2:11

found you can use land You're the

2:13

guy who can say whether or not it's took the landing

2:15

legally. I can't say it on this podcast. Oh, yeah I

2:19

don't want to get into why but Kaya and

2:21

I can explain to you later. Yeah I

2:26

Think that making things is incredibly

2:28

hard and I think that

2:30

making murder mysteries is incredibly hard and

2:33

I am fascinated by

2:36

some of the choices made over

2:38

the course of these six episodes and I'm very eager

2:40

to talk to them talk about them

2:42

with you, but overall like this was This

2:46

was a disappointing night of television for me I don't

2:48

want to come on here and be like and then

2:50

guess what happened the station You know, but I want

2:53

to be fair-minded I want to go through a bunch

2:55

of stuff and and have a you know free-flowing exchange

2:57

of ideas about it because it's no fun To be

2:59

like I do want to have a kind of it

3:01

was bad I think there was some things that were

3:03

I'm struggling to wrap my head around I want to

3:06

have a chat about like the nature of TV mysteries

3:08

and especially those told over these kind of limited series

3:10

limited season Arcs, I think that we've

3:12

had a lot of experience with these they Are

3:16

often the most fun and the most engaged we

3:18

are with television and often the most disappointed that

3:20

we can be with it I think I share

3:22

your feelings that the end didn't really

3:24

work for me. I'm trying to like still kind of

3:27

separate the signal from the

3:29

noise so to speak about Whether

3:31

or not and we've done this sort of notification of

3:34

the show all year where we're talking about night country

3:36

And we're talking about true detective this

3:38

episode Had some

3:41

very clear callbacks to true detective couldn't

3:43

be clear by one kid really more

3:45

I wouldn't say superficially,

3:47

but like I think

3:49

philosophically rather than narratively Which is

3:52

completely fine. I don't I did

3:54

not want this show to necessarily

3:57

Answer questions about Carcosa or

3:59

Yellow kings or, you know,

4:01

international generations long conspiracies of

4:04

evil. It is a relief

4:06

that it did not attempt to do anything. Obviously, like

4:09

there is that connective tissue. So we'll talk about that.

4:11

But yeah, why don't we just talk about the episode

4:13

kind of on a brass tacks level before we get

4:15

into more generalities. Okay, do you want

4:17

to I did like the opening shot where it's

4:20

chip, chip, we're in the night country. I

4:22

like that. Yes. So we

4:24

start with Navarro and Danvers tracking Clark

4:26

back to essentially his workplace.

4:29

Although they didn't seem to know that. Not

4:31

until they got to the ladder. Yeah, right. Right.

4:35

So like they basically Navarro and Danvers is the episode

4:37

opens up, crack open a cold

4:39

one meaning the earth and flip

4:41

into an ice cave and

4:44

kind of follow their, their noses or

4:47

their their their said they're hearing sounds that

4:49

sound like voices. But in fact, sounds like

4:52

I think it's winds up being the machine

4:54

hum of a laboratory and a ground laboratory.

4:57

And they find the ladder, the ladder goes up

4:59

into the wall station. It being

5:01

permanent. Clark to they

5:03

see the basic Clark. He's there. Yeah,

5:06

for sure. And Kodiak Clark, we call

5:08

him. Is that what we call him?

5:10

I just trying that out. They

5:13

capture Clark and well,

5:16

he gives them some business. He gives

5:18

them what for like he knocks out

5:20

Evangeline. He he eventually Navarro needed some

5:22

time in the blue tent. You

5:24

know what I mean? Like she is being under

5:27

concussion protocol since day three of night. I know.

5:30

And one thing that I feel

5:32

like her ass kicked a lot in two weeks. Yeah, I

5:34

need some clarity on this, not medically.

5:37

Like I'm really curious because TV and movies

5:39

have given me very, very, very different visions

5:42

of what happens when people's heads are

5:44

hit with things like fire hydrants. Because

5:47

I feel like that would be a fire extinguisher, by the

5:49

way. You've never picked up a fire

5:52

hydrant. Wow,

5:54

I've just flunked the safety exam here at Spotify

5:56

HQ. I just feel like it could have

5:58

gone in a number of ways. But all right. And I will say my

6:00

other favorite image of the episode was Jodie

6:03

Foster going ham with an ice spike to

6:05

break through the glass. Yeah, that was cool.

6:07

That was a cool scene. All right, so

6:09

yeah, after sort of some

6:12

fencing back and forth with Clark, Navarro and

6:14

Danvers managed to capture him. They

6:16

managed to tie him down to a

6:18

chair. Yeah. And waterboard him,

6:21

so to speak, with the sounds of

6:23

Annie's death, which finally

6:25

breaks him and brings

6:27

him to a point where he will like

6:29

confess. I guess, first of all,

6:31

that scene reminded me of when we all got the U2

6:33

album on our iPods. I

6:35

was going to ask you, like, what would be the

6:38

sound that would make you break? I

6:40

think my Did Don Draper Buy

6:42

the World a Coke ad. I

6:44

think if you just played that 10 times

6:47

in a row, I would tell you anything you want to know.

6:50

I had some, I mean, I don't know how much you want to do this.

6:53

You can stop as we go. We can

6:55

chat about this as we go along. I

6:57

had some questions about their interrogation style

7:00

because I feel like we have been looking for

7:02

this person who is the only

7:05

survivor of a catastrophic incident.

7:09

And they kind of just told

7:11

them to shut up. He's also the chief suspect of essentially

7:13

like multi-person murders. And they definitely didn't ask him anything. They

7:15

just told him to shut the fuck up a lot and

7:17

then stuck an iPod in his ear. Yeah.

7:20

You know, like I feel like and then they did get some stuff from him

7:22

and then they went away for a while and they come back and they were

7:24

like, oh, so by the way, what

7:26

happened to the scientists? You know what I mean? I feel like

7:28

there was a more efficient way of interrogating. Yeah. So

7:31

one thing that I think I

7:34

at once liked, but also wondered whether

7:36

either A, I was reading too

7:38

much into it or B thought could

7:41

have just been maybe a little bit more explicit is

7:43

the amount of time that passes. Now obviously

7:46

they're there on New Year's Eve. The

7:48

sort of episode ends on New Year's Day at

7:50

some point. It's still permanent

7:52

night or constant night there. But

7:55

one of the reasons why I think some

7:57

of this Solol station stuff felt jagged. Is

8:00

this idea that they're supposed to be there

8:02

for hours and hours and hours and more.

8:04

Pointless dose and takes a nap. A long

8:06

nap long enough for a human man to

8:09

freeze to death. There's a lot of going

8:11

often and looking for snacks. I'm feeling oranges

8:13

there's There's a lot of like inter mission

8:15

going on for this thing where you would

8:17

be like We have finally found the killer.

8:20

We've. Got I'm strapped to a chair. We have

8:22

broken him with audio torture. Let's find

8:24

out everything we need to find out. Now

8:26

that's that's when they seem to take breaks. The

8:29

only question. It's funny because the shows detectives

8:31

strategy throughout which I really liked it. did find

8:33

the come Back Again as loses like you're

8:35

asking the wrong question asked again. The only question

8:37

the Navarro asks Clark after finally getting him

8:39

after. The. Entire series is did

8:41

you Really Love Annie? That

8:43

feels a little bit like. That. In

8:46

a ringer dis than anything else. Note: I

8:48

mean a once it's I'd say so. But.

8:51

I'll also say and his part of my

8:54

larger conversation I want to have with you

8:56

is. Take everything

8:58

else away from this episode. The. Arc

9:00

of make country going from.

9:03

The. Men: In the station. To.

9:07

Liz. And Navarro in the station.

9:10

Trapped in there, dealing with the elements,

9:12

dealing with the supernatural, dealing with and

9:14

whatever other Gg was in their yards,

9:17

sleep deprived, hungry visions, etc. This is

9:19

good. Yeah, and this is clearly the

9:21

road map. That. V started with

9:23

and we like this is something that they

9:25

were writing to and there's nothing wrong with

9:27

that. It's a good idea and it's and

9:29

symmetrical and for the series I think one

9:31

of the main ways that the spend a

9:33

moment when they when they kind of got

9:35

the ladder to open the hatch and they're

9:37

back in full. all I was like oh

9:39

shit yeah these are we to a moment

9:41

to school and and Twist and Shout is

9:43

playing as this is really rad but I

9:45

do think that one of the ways that

9:47

series like this can go awry and we

9:49

have no knowledge of the actual bind since

9:51

process is when. You become so. Obsessive.

9:54

Getting to an endpoint. Said.

9:56

Journey. Becomes. Secondary

9:59

to the destiny. And

10:01

you get there are many examples of shows

10:03

where you can feel that now I want

10:05

to be very careful. In a serious i

10:07

don't know what on behind the scenes and

10:09

I also think there are many many strong

10:11

arguments to be made against their will. just

10:13

figured out as we go. Well rounded she

10:15

especially when you only have six. Alex it

10:17

is. A featured How

10:19

much of It as a bugs me is that To use

10:21

a cliche but. Are you there was

10:24

a weekly on this Know you've watched

10:26

countless sixty eight episode limited. Series.

10:28

Mysteries or at least start out as Mit

10:30

Limited Series Mysteries and I think generally speaking.

10:34

Those. First, three or four. Or where

10:36

where are happiest because. That's.

10:38

Where there's just possibility and there's just

10:41

speculation. and there's the most about a

10:43

dramatic tension because there is the most

10:45

amount of like permutations of plot rates

10:47

and you're also still very much getting

10:50

immersed in the setting. The world like

10:52

every new place they go to is

10:54

like who. To Gallaher to Dox.

10:57

What is interesting Like you know after you

10:59

get through four five episodes like they're circling

11:01

back through the same houses they're circling, they're

11:03

going down the same streets. It's always dark

11:05

with a drone shot when they're driving like

11:07

you get used to it and I think

11:09

as you can I come to. His

11:12

you rounds third on these mysteries. typically.

11:14

The inherent problem with it is that

11:17

like. As all the

11:19

doors closed the one you have to go

11:21

through seems may be. It's

11:23

hard to make that last or you go through

11:25

to be the as satisfying as you wanted to

11:27

be. But here's here's why I mean this: sincerely.

11:30

Like. My. Relationship.

11:32

With the show, my feelings about

11:34

this final episode a completely different.

11:38

If I have a different relationship with Lives and

11:40

Navarro. I. Think the

11:42

shows. Cardinal. Sin isn't. The.

11:45

Revelation of what happened to any what happens

11:47

to Clark, what happen to the scientists, etc

11:49

which we will get into It to me

11:51

that the work wasn't done to make either

11:53

of these women compelling. Not. Just

11:55

protagonists, but a compelling partnership. The.

11:58

Showed had not a single thing

12:00

to say about the relationship between

12:02

these two women, other than the

12:04

shared history of Wheeler. There.

12:07

Was never any sense that they ever got along

12:09

particularly well. Well, it was never any sense that

12:11

they cared for each other or new each other's

12:13

quirks or finish each other's sentences not in a

12:15

cutesy way, but in a professional with which is

12:17

the hallmark of a two handed detective story where

12:20

as or think about Lethal Weapon Rio it's like

12:22

when they could be more different but they complement

12:24

each other and they have a dynamic and a

12:26

chemistry. Fisher did not do that because it was

12:28

too busy. Loading. Everyone with

12:30

past events, past trauma, past things that

12:32

need to be healed through the mechanism

12:35

of the six episodes. There wasn't enough

12:37

time in the presence. And

12:40

had I had a relationship with them? And.

12:42

Felt something for them and felt invested in

12:44

them and more crucially in the relationship. With

12:47

who? Did. it doesn't matter. Yeah. Rattled

12:49

care know that's right and I think sit

12:52

on. You. Know I actually

12:54

found as I think one of the lingering mysteries

12:56

to some extent we we know that. We.

12:58

Know that I'd. Eventually. Killed

13:01

Wheeler. I. That we do. We had all

13:03

that endless was like. I. Was gonna do

13:05

it myself. So there is a kind of moral.

13:08

They're. Sharing the moral burden of that to of that and at

13:10

that's like when we go out to dinner and you take the

13:12

checkers. I

13:14

was gonna do it as a. By

13:17

I think that Liz ah end

13:19

eventually. I would be very curious

13:21

to know why. Is. That the

13:23

obvious. Oh, that's the straw that broke the camel's back

13:25

for their sort of partnership. But. There is

13:27

a lot of illusions in the beginning of like. You.

13:30

Know she's going to. She's. Gonna take

13:32

you wanted and she'll break your heart like

13:34

that. There's something that List did that sort

13:36

of disappointed this eventually. Like I'm very interested

13:38

in their kind of partnership in the relationship.

13:40

Like I said that, there was that intimacy

13:42

when List goes over to eventually ends house

13:44

at that point and seems to know where

13:47

these used to keep canned goods and stuff

13:49

like that. There is a kind of familiarity

13:51

that I don't think. Is ever

13:53

really referenced in last two

13:55

episodes because there's so much.

13:58

like you said either the trauma of the their

14:00

pasts and their kind of identities, or it's the

14:02

mystery of the present. And so it's a little

14:05

bit, you know. Often when TV

14:07

shows go off the rails, it's because they

14:09

are the wrong shaped story for the wrong

14:11

sized box. And I think that giving

14:13

Isa Lopez the credit for what she wanted

14:15

to do and what she wanted to say

14:17

about this world and these characters, this wasn't

14:19

long enough. Because there was not enough real

14:22

estate to do anything in the present when

14:24

everything was about stuff that had happened in

14:26

the past. Things that we saw are things

14:28

that we didn't see. And that's

14:31

a problem. That's a problem that we

14:33

didn't get to spend time with these characters,

14:35

seeing them react to things in real time,

14:37

understanding their shared history. There just simply wasn't

14:39

space for it. Yeah. Salal,

14:42

it turns out, had discovered

14:44

some groundbreaking medical

14:46

advances within the basically

14:50

pre-historic ice of this

14:52

place. But the

14:54

problem with that is, the only

14:56

way to functionally get at

14:58

this stuff was to

15:00

soften the permafrost. Was to continue to

15:03

pollute Ennis, which the mine was happy

15:05

to oblige them because the mine has

15:08

a financial relationship with Salal Station and

15:10

both entities have this financial relationship with

15:12

the TUDL organization, which is a reference

15:14

to the first season. We never really

15:17

got much clarity or... But

15:19

then we find out that Annie's sin

15:22

was that she was the real true

15:24

detective here. She discovered this. Her investigation

15:26

is seemingly the best

15:28

investigation because the investigation of her

15:30

investigation gives us nothing other than

15:33

prior Googling and Liz and Evangeline

15:35

walking into a cave. Yeah, so Annie discovers

15:38

what Salal's research was about

15:40

and destroyed their work, years of

15:42

work. And Lund, who

15:44

you may remember as being the Pazuzu

15:46

looking guy in the hospital that a

15:48

couple of episodes ago, is so

15:50

enraged that he stabbed her 30 times with

15:53

this rod that he's got. And

15:56

in a callback to Danvers' telling

15:58

of the Wheeler killing, Clark... kind of

16:00

elides his role. Like so, in much

16:02

the same way that Danvers sort of

16:04

tells Pryor about Wheeler, and

16:07

in this scene you can tell that's not exactly what

16:09

happened. Clark's telling Danvers

16:11

and Evangeline, like, I loved

16:13

her, I couldn't do anything, but he is

16:15

in fact seemingly the person who finally

16:18

kills her in this. But this is another, the

16:20

show just sort of, the scientists

16:22

aren't characters. The scientists have as much

16:24

personality in this scene as they did when they were

16:26

a frozen corpseacle. And we're led

16:28

to believe that these people, who they know nothing about,

16:31

immediately fall in line with their

16:33

superior and violently gangstab a woman.

16:36

That that's immediately all of their reactions.

16:39

Which I haven't worked

16:41

with a lot of Arctic scientists. I

16:44

struggled with that, accepting that. But

16:47

I also think that the two things that you've just

16:49

given us in terms of the development of the show

16:51

point to two of my bigger

16:54

critiques. One, Clark

16:56

is like, we did it. We

16:59

found the thing that was gonna fix the world. He doesn't

17:01

even say that. It's just a yada yada, so we found

17:03

a magic thing. And Annie-

17:05

And we get a view, we get a little

17:07

bit of a skeleton of like

17:09

a- Big

17:11

ol' ice snake or whatever. Ice thing

17:13

that is shaped in the spiral pictogram.

17:16

And Annie not only discovered this and

17:18

discovered the pollution, but then in a

17:20

fit of rage, destroyed their magical groundbreaking

17:22

work. The evidence, yeah. Okay,

17:26

that's fine. But what

17:28

could have been interesting was give

17:30

me some stakes here. Say literally

17:32

we found something that would cure

17:35

pancreatic cancer. Not all cancer, one

17:37

specific vicious cancer. And

17:39

but it was polluting one town. And so

17:41

then it becomes a very familiar moral argument.

17:43

The prolly car argument of like the greater

17:46

good versus the small local thing. Maybe

17:48

Liz's husband isn't there because he died of pancreatic cancer.

17:50

So she would have wanted that. Connect

17:54

This magical work to the quotidian

17:56

day-to-day life of the investigation, the

17:59

people. I'm interested in

18:01

yeah instead of. And he just. Had

18:03

no and knocked it all away. Is.

18:06

Also connects to the other thing. This is my my

18:08

lives and eventually point and I I feel like it's

18:10

worth making here again. Our.

18:13

Relationship as fans of the genre and stop

18:15

me if you don't agree with any part

18:17

of this. It never comes

18:20

from clever permutations of plot

18:22

or revelations of identities of

18:24

evil or murderer or the

18:26

evil that men do. It

18:28

comes from feeling emotionally invested

18:30

in interested in the people

18:32

on the way. And.

18:35

It has to be somewhere along the way. And

18:37

I say that very simply because.

18:39

I've. Already given you I don't think wasn't eventually

18:41

work necessarily that compelling in the present and. Where.

18:44

We have in the finale is a. Show.

18:47

That. Has. Not given us fully

18:49

fleshed out protagonists. He has

18:51

also not given us fully fleshed out victims. And

18:55

it also has given us kill us. The.

18:57

Show in, I just hope. Okay, so

18:59

it's to say Devil's Advocate? Yeah, Do

19:01

you think that there's something to that? Do

19:04

you think that there is something is the

19:06

show? Try to say something violate inverting all

19:08

of our expectations about it is possible. Killers

19:11

and villas possible Now are at my guess

19:13

is identity said that I my guess is

19:15

that she can. Speak. About these

19:17

choices passionately. I'm not suggesting any way that

19:20

this is laziness or this is like a

19:22

lack of ability in terms of constructing stores.

19:24

Or I think that very often when people

19:26

are given the chance to work within a

19:29

genre, there is a very strong creative desire

19:31

to subvert. The genre yes make

19:33

a mark on the drama do something different

19:35

with of course like all creative people have

19:38

that energy and also that ego and I.

19:40

I respect that a lot. If the argument

19:42

was to say that. The. These

19:44

and the scientists are faceless on

19:47

purpose that they are what happens

19:49

when. To put it bluntly,

19:51

men think they know better. That

19:54

is a that's an argument death and

19:56

that is the medically interesting as at

19:58

I'm as is. your point about like

20:00

there being an absent an empty

20:03

chair with the villain piece like Clark

20:06

dies believing that something that

20:09

took the shape of Annie but

20:12

is much older than Annie and is

20:15

possibly ancient as

20:17

a force that's out there in the

20:19

night country that that's what killed the

20:21

solace scientists and even

20:23

though we get the explanation for like what led

20:25

them to running off into the night I

20:28

think that there is like still a cool idea

20:30

somewhere in the like thing you can't put a name

20:32

on and I guess if I was

20:35

gonna give this show like this finale a compliment

20:37

I did like that aspect of it

20:39

of like this guy who's literally scaring

20:42

himself to death at this point it's

20:44

still believing that like Annie is out

20:46

there represented as some sort

20:48

of force and frankly Evangeline and Danvers have

20:50

both had enough experience in the last two

20:52

episodes to be like maybe there is something

20:55

yeah and I think

20:57

I agree with you I think the show is

20:59

absolutely at its best when it twins

21:02

the ineffable indescribable

21:05

supernatural with

21:07

something that is also

21:09

systemic and hard to

21:11

get your arms around but practical such as the way

21:13

the women are treated in this town who are cleaning

21:16

up after these guys so that is

21:18

also a huge theme and it

21:20

has an almost supernatural fury in

21:22

the way that vengeance is wreaked upon them I

21:25

get that yeah but where I

21:27

can't find where it's like running your

21:29

hand along an ice wall is that give

21:32

me an in here if the

21:34

show is about Annie's investigation that's

21:37

interesting that show I'm okay

21:39

so there's a there's a local

21:41

indigenous woman who has a relationship forbidden

21:43

relationship with a scientist and discovers what's

21:46

going on and it is

21:48

put in peril with it like that sounds like

21:50

a pretty good show yeah I mean Annie's relationship with

21:52

Clark might have been the most interesting thing about

21:55

the series in retrospect to me about season

21:57

in terms of like they're kind of uh

22:01

deep attraction to one

22:03

another and what it was that they bonded

22:05

over i mean that trailer that clark had

22:07

purchased from the guy with essentially a shrine

22:09

to these images and

22:13

you know like whether they're like indigenous to that

22:15

area or like just like these things that they're

22:17

just two of them were seeing in the ice

22:19

the tattoos like all that shit was really interesting

22:22

this is this is what i'm talking about though once

22:24

you start drilling down so to speak to get to

22:26

like okay let's make a choice and say what it

22:28

was so what it is i don't know i mean

22:30

like danvers decides to take a nap after this clark

22:33

escapes and freezes to death you did miss my favorite

22:35

part which is when yet another

22:37

orange rolls out this time from the

22:39

refrigerator and navarro like very

22:41

like mystically says you know

22:44

my mother loved oranges i'm like you know

22:46

us loves oranges everyone universal

22:48

approval rating i'm not a big oranges guy well

22:50

oh here we go see this is me taya

22:53

pro or con i love a

22:55

good orange especially like a cutie yeah so this

22:57

is the thing when i was kid growing up and they'd give

22:59

you orange slices and there were these bulky tasteless things that a

23:01

lot of seeds i want that but now that

23:03

we live in the bounty that is california and

23:05

you get these little clementines or tangerines they're delicious

23:07

nice you're just in the pocket of big news

23:09

and you're always talking about california

23:12

it's great here the agricultural you know

23:14

how cold it is everywhere else i

23:16

don't okay um speaking of

23:18

being cold liz is also seeing visions

23:21

so navarro obviously has been experiencing these

23:23

things with like the oranges with seeing

23:25

things uh at the dredging station several

23:27

episodes ago she's very distracted by the

23:30

thaliz is also seeing visions this now

23:32

of her son holden

23:34

who died in a car accident and

23:37

uh navarro

23:39

has also been talking about i i'm

23:41

frankly suicidal ideation the

23:43

most part in talking about wanting to walk out into the the

23:46

abyss of the ice yeah he before

23:48

he does that he does say something that i

23:50

i just want to know what sound you made

23:53

in your living room when clark says time is

23:55

a flat circle um i i think

23:57

i was like he's gonna do it jim

23:59

you think For real! Yeah,

24:01

I think I was like... I

24:05

like the idea that it's in conversation with

24:07

the first season. And

24:11

I like the idea that there are certain people

24:13

in the world that have seen things that make

24:15

them say this thing. But

24:17

it did feel a little Leonardo DiCaprio pointing at

24:20

the screen. You know, my reaction was, I was

24:22

like, oh my god, he admitted! Immediately

24:26

out. Immediately out. And I

24:29

think we were born out in

24:31

our theory that the

24:33

Tuttle, Carcosa stuff was really more

24:35

of... I felt like Iso

24:38

was giving things to the fans. This

24:40

is which they did not receive necessarily the

24:43

way they were intended. Yeah. So,

24:46

Liz falls into an ice hole in the sea.

24:49

Where's the sea? Sea is everywhere. I

24:51

think that's a sea. So, at the end of the episode,

24:54

Liz has absolutely prime waterfront wheel

24:57

state. And I wonder whether or

24:59

not... Does that mean she has

25:01

a beach house? Or

25:03

does that mean... In the winter. Her

25:05

house is actually this sick spot over

25:07

the water, but in the winter it's

25:09

just a fucking tundra. I think it's

25:11

that. I think that there's the sea

25:13

and then there's the like, we can

25:15

walk over it six months of the

25:17

year sea. Sure. Some land bridges.

25:19

Guess who won't be walking over any fucking frozen seas? Is

25:21

it my guy, CR? This guy. Well,

25:24

think how dope it is under the ice. That's

25:27

your shit. It's the sea. You're so close

25:29

to it. That's true. What

25:31

else happens? Oh, by the way, this entire

25:33

time, Pete's got to throw

25:35

his dad in the fucking hole. Pete's

25:38

still using Fantastic to clean

25:40

up his dad's body. Again,

25:43

this is the wrong reaction. But when I was

25:46

like, we're doing the house cleaning montage of

25:48

just Pete

25:51

and his skivvies, just grabbing the

25:53

Mrs. Meyers. Even people just dropping by and

25:55

blizzards while his dad's teeth are in the

25:57

wall? I mean, that was a tough And

26:00

again, it's like, I

26:03

can see it. Jim, I can see

26:05

the mission. Jim, she

26:07

schemed it up real well. You know what I

26:10

mean? Yeah, he's Danny. Twelve personnel, it's fascinating, a

26:12

lot of motion. The

26:14

idea that Peter Pryor,

26:17

and again, that name is loaded

26:19

with significance, that his journey was

26:21

quite literally killing his father

26:23

and corrupting his soul to save

26:26

his, like there's a lot of

26:28

heaviness there. But he also

26:30

ran out of road as a character. Well,

26:33

I thought that there was going to be something

26:35

going on out there with Rose. Well, also, he

26:38

goes to Kyla and he's just like... I

26:40

gotta do this one thing. I gotta do one bad

26:42

thing. And Kyla, who's been real chill about everything this

26:44

entire series, is like, you do that. You do that

26:46

one bad thing, buddy. And then come back and hug

26:49

your son. Then

26:51

he goes through it. So again, it's like

26:53

Rose living out there giving speeches and making

26:55

canapes and, I was

26:57

about to say, sharpening a rifle, but sure. These

27:01

are fascinating and beautiful ideas and they

27:03

lead to theorizing. And again, I'm sure

27:05

that Isa will be doing a lot

27:07

of interviews tonight, tomorrow, where she explains

27:09

what Rose means in terms of someone

27:11

who, a woman in this case, who

27:13

checked out of a certain

27:15

kind of life to live a certain kind

27:17

of way, and thus making her the person

27:19

who can say to Peter

27:21

Pryor, it's

27:24

not over. In that sense,

27:26

the time is a flat circle, but grief. But

27:28

also the implication that Rose has done some stuff

27:30

like this in her life. Yeah. And

27:32

obviously knows what to do with a dead body. She's

27:36

a hunter as well. I would also say

27:38

that I would never be able

27:40

to do a crime, certainly not cover up a

27:42

crime. That's what I feel like... You know who

27:44

says that? Killers. Murders. Sociopaths.

27:47

Cut that clip. Save it for the future investigation.

27:49

But I'm just saying that if I was in

27:52

the night country, I feel like night country lends...

27:54

You know how everyone is a wine expert when they

27:56

go to Sonoma? If you're in the night country, you

27:59

could lose some... I I honestly would like

28:01

try to have you put in some sort of hibernation

28:03

state if we were in the night country together You

28:06

would just be like it's cold Who

28:09

would you be saying? Gunga Din I'd be

28:11

like we're at the bar at noon

28:13

because it's dark, right? Yeah Are

28:18

we sleeping in like a salal type hotel are

28:20

you like good night sir lying

28:22

back? So

28:25

prior is getting rid of his dad's body. I think I would be

28:27

a good hang at coffee No, I think you would be fine for

28:29

the first couple of days, but then I think you'd be like I

28:31

have a head cold It's a hundred percent.

28:33

I'm not you know, I haven't flown to England once

28:35

like you Navarro saved

28:37

lives from hypothermia. They're warming

28:39

up There's you know, like I

28:41

they're kind of reconciling a little bit and

28:43

then they have kind of

28:46

Because of one of those, you know classic like

28:49

sit Navarro says something and loses like wait a

28:51

second What did you say before that the hatch

28:53

and they go back to the hatch that leads

28:55

up into the salal? She gets closure on her

28:57

son. She she allows just moments before

28:59

all of this when Navarro is talking about I've seen

29:01

your So you're not gonna remember this but I I

29:04

have to go back and look at it. We just

29:06

watch it I don't is that what

29:08

Holden says to Navarro because I thought he said

29:11

protect my mommy I

29:14

didn't have the closed captions on no, she

29:16

says to Danvers your son says he sees

29:18

you But I thought earlier that he

29:20

was like protect my mom. Oh unreliable narrators.

29:22

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a consistent thing

29:24

in the show I just thought what

29:26

would you want to know if you were Liz? Of course,

29:29

you would be like, yes, my son sees me That's incredible.

29:31

Yeah, that was a gift that was some human. I mean

29:33

they were quite nice to each other once they were both

29:35

seeing shit Yes, like then I do before

29:37

that though, and she was like shut your

29:39

sick sick fuck mouth like a lot of Swears

29:42

on this show and then later she falls into lies

29:44

you falls in the ice once and it's just like

29:47

tell me visions I would be like that too

29:49

if I fell on the ice they Figure

29:52

out to go check the hatch for prints and

29:54

they do this by pouring like a chemical solution

29:56

on the hatch and using a UV light And

29:58

there's a hand print sort of to the right.

30:02

One thing leads to another and

30:04

they figure out that that

30:06

print must belong to

30:10

one of the sort of workers

30:12

at the Salal station. Do you

30:14

want to comment on the moment

30:16

right before that discovery? Yeah. When

30:19

the Doomcore cover of Twist and Shout starts. Oh

30:21

yeah. That was when I left my body. And

30:25

when you when you exited your body was equalized cherry

30:27

plain? That was going to the Doomcore

30:29

Eagle Eye. Do you think there's like, Midnight

30:31

Country is a place where the shadow versions

30:33

of all these artists play these bad versions

30:35

of their famous songs? They go over to

30:37

the dorm or

30:40

apartment complex where the the cleaning lady

30:42

from Salal lives. But they all live.

30:45

Yes. So this is like, it's

30:47

very Agatha Christie. It's very like we get there, all

30:49

of the sort of characters are assembled. And the implication

30:51

that they all live there or that they had a

30:53

rage or it was New Year's Eve. I

30:56

don't know. I think maybe it's supposed to be

30:58

like a kind of like

31:00

housing situation. But I do think

31:02

that like it's it's really more

31:05

these women all coming out and

31:07

at once being held accountable, but also telling

31:10

their story about what happened and what what

31:12

happened is they find out

31:15

because of their invisibility to these scientists,

31:17

their their their work around this research

31:19

station, they basically figure out what

31:21

Annie found out and what happened to her.

31:24

These women knew a lot about the unique

31:26

shape of the stab wounds. Yes. And rather

31:28

than going to the police, they decide to

31:31

exact justice themselves. Right. Round up the

31:33

men, put them in the back of

31:35

a truck, take them out into the ice, undress

31:38

them and be like, see

31:40

what happens. See what happens. And I could

31:43

have guessed what happened. And we all know the

31:45

slab avalanche slash demon out in the

31:47

night country gets them. And did

31:49

that house remind you at all of

31:51

where you lived in Roxbury in 1999.

31:53

It's just like another dude coming out.

31:55

I was into the promise ring, too.

31:57

Really took me back. And

31:59

then And they kind of all

32:02

agree to cover it

32:04

up. I mean, just as they will

32:06

with Hank's death, with Otis's death, with

32:09

the Salal station guys, with Clark.

32:12

The final sort of real scene

32:14

is a montage of Evangeline

32:16

leaving Ennis, moving on

32:18

with her life. I would only stop you to

32:21

say it's not just a montage, it is a

32:23

classic true detective internal affairs investigation with the framing

32:25

of two cops. Yeah, that's what I was gonna

32:27

get to. So they're interviewing Danvers, she's giving her

32:29

sort of version of events. Her story. Which

32:33

is essentially like, some

32:36

things can't be explained and some questions don't

32:38

have answers, which obviously goes against her philosophy

32:40

as an investigator. And we don't know who

32:42

put the tongue. I have a

32:44

bunch of what we don't know. Oh, I'm sorry. No,

32:47

it's okay. But the series ends with Liz

32:50

sitting on a beautiful deck looking

32:52

over an incredible body of water. And

32:55

she is joined while insisting in

32:57

her voiceover to the inspectors that Evangeline

33:00

is gone for good. She

33:02

is joined by Evangeline. Now, whether or not that's

33:04

a spectral version of her or like emotionally,

33:07

psychologically, like she's there. And

33:10

I should add that I was confused by that. Yeah, you

33:12

thought it might be Leah. I thought it was her daughter.

33:14

That's okay. I, partly because- Well,

33:16

she's talking about Evangeline in that scene though.

33:19

Yep. I guess I thought it meant that

33:21

Liz was somehow healed. Like

33:24

her family was somehow gonna move

33:26

forward because again, I don't understand.

33:30

This might just be my ignorance. I

33:32

don't fully understand the Evangeline arc, you

33:35

know, is

33:37

she walking out? I guess the idea is that

33:39

she just, she walked out, but she came back.

33:41

Yeah, I mean, also like, I think she walked

33:43

out towards that

33:45

sunrise. I don't

33:47

know, she did whatever she needed to do. Yeah. Did

33:50

you have any reaction to the Northern Lights? Cause I thought it

33:52

was interesting that once Pete, well,

33:55

once Rose stabs the oxygen out

33:57

of dead Hank's lungs and they-

34:00

dump him into the frozen water. Yeah.

34:02

Like Yahweh is like a light

34:04

show to celebrate your achievement. Is that

34:07

Yahweh? You have done it. What

34:10

is, why is he kind of like the

34:12

movie phone guy? My religion is- Why don't

34:14

you put your dad into the frozen sea?

34:18

Why don't you tell me what kind of bad society you'd

34:20

like to commit? My religion is very private to

34:23

me, so I won't be speaking on that, but I

34:25

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netsuite.com/ringer. That is netsuite.com/ringer. Here's

36:55

some kind of takeaways. Hank

36:57

was the inside man all

36:59

along obstructing the anti-investigation, closing

37:01

of her body. Rose,

37:03

who there was a lot of speculation of, like,

37:05

who is this woman who can see her dead

37:09

lover Travis, who may or may not

37:11

be Rusticole's father? Like,

37:14

what's up with her? Is she the yellow

37:16

queen? Does she have some sort of connection

37:18

to, like, a pagan evil? No, she's Rose.

37:21

She seems to know a lot about the cost of

37:23

killing someone, but that's all we really find out. We

37:25

never really hear her story about that. That's okay. I'm

37:27

fine with that one. Pete is back together with his

37:29

wife because it wasn't Danvers. It was his dad that

37:31

had the hold on him. That's my take. Yeah.

37:34

So it's cool to work a lot.

37:36

The mine has been closed because

37:39

someone, probably Liz, leaked the

37:41

video of Clark hopefully recording

37:44

a complete statement and testimony

37:46

about how Solon and the

37:48

mine had been poisoning the town. Now, my

37:50

understanding, again, tell me if I'm wrong here,

37:52

because I was definitely lost on Incredulity Island

37:55

at this point in watching the episode, but

37:57

the assumption that I

37:59

took from that was that... during the time Liz was

38:01

taking a nap, but before she allowed him to

38:03

walk to his death in the ice, Navarro

38:05

did a more traditional interrogation and

38:07

filmed Clark admitting everything. So she would have

38:10

a record. That because when I think also

38:12

when Liz is like, how the fuck could

38:14

you let him leave? I think

38:16

maybe the implication is like, she got what she needed out

38:18

of this guy. And then let him

38:20

do what he wanted to do. And maybe that's why she kept

38:22

asking him if he loved her. Because it would seem to be

38:25

that was the most important thing to Navarro is whether or not

38:27

this was like tragic

38:29

for him or whether he was like a homicidal

38:31

asshole. So the mind is shut down.

38:34

The great work nature is healing. The great

38:36

work has ceased. The incredible

38:40

potential of the frozen

38:42

prehistoric ice snake. Are you denied humanity?

38:45

Are you thinking of zagging and being pro-salal

38:47

station? I'm a hundred percent. What do you

38:49

mean zagging? I'm pro-salal station. I

38:52

am a hundred percent pro-salal station. Are you sure?

38:55

I'm not going to get a sense of perspective here. Okay.

38:58

What if I just had to sacrifice the few to

39:01

help the many? It

39:03

seems pretty cut and dry to me. No offense.

39:06

But like, a lot of people get can't that's why they didn't name it,

39:08

I guess. But yeah, I'm just saying.

39:11

I also think you're going to do it in that

39:13

kind of fashion, though. I don't trust you to, you

39:15

know, like, what if I'm just if I have to

39:17

like, take a vaccine of

39:20

prehistoric bone marrow. Yeah, like, you're probably going

39:22

to be charging me through the nose for

39:24

that. Oh, you think it's

39:26

like GlaxoSmithKlineTuttle? Yeah. I

39:28

think if

39:30

the main thing the pollution did was

39:32

just melt the ice a little bit, like, I

39:35

don't think that's the main thing. Someone's causing stillverts. No,

39:37

no, that was the bad thing. Yeah. But

39:40

the good thing was relatively minor. Okay. And

39:42

as someone who defrost a lot of bagels in

39:44

the morning, things like that, I feel like there

39:46

was another there was a third way here. Have

39:49

you tried using pollution to defrost your bagels? I'm

39:51

just saying like, just pure sewage room. Tuttle

39:54

has a lot of money. I buy a lot of like,

39:56

hairdryers and hire some people to stand there just like, yeah,

39:58

just softening things up a little bit. Why do we have

40:00

to throw the whole project out? Mine

40:03

closes Quavik, you know,

40:06

probably one of my favorite dudes in the show. That's

40:08

my guy. He gets a Spongebob

40:10

toothbrush back from Navarro before she leaves town.

40:13

Here's some unanswered questions for me. And

40:16

this is without doing like a deep read,

40:18

deep dive, but I imagine some of our

40:20

listeners are probably thinking some of the same

40:22

things. What was the shy and trine trailer

40:24

thing? I really wanted to

40:26

know more about the nature of Annie

40:28

and Clark's relationship. Were they

40:30

on this like trip together where they were like, we

40:32

can see into the fucking nth

40:36

dimension through this pictogram? Or was

40:38

it simply just two

40:41

kids kind of falling

40:43

in love, but then she finds out her

40:45

boyfriend is in fact an evil scientist? Again,

40:48

I think that one of the

40:50

strengths of the whole project of

40:52

True Detective has been the balancing

40:55

act between specifics and

40:57

suggestion. And

40:59

I, everyone knows my

41:01

criticisms of the previous seasons,

41:03

but I do appreciate that the

41:06

metaphysical stuff was window dressing essentially

41:08

towards a more specific story about what people

41:10

do. I also

41:13

don't mind the implications on the

41:15

margins here of something connective, something

41:17

demonic or whatever. But

41:20

at a certain point, we need some

41:22

clarity. And instead we have a show

41:24

that was about a complete nonbeliever, Liz,

41:27

and someone who is a completely credulous

41:29

believer. But what does any of that

41:32

mean? What it means in the practice of the show

41:34

is that Navarro sees wild shit a lot. Yeah. Well,

41:37

welcome to watching True Detective. Well, thank you. No, I

41:39

mean, like that is, but this is, but your point,

41:42

which is, is there anywhere

41:44

in the Venn diagram of indigenous belief

41:46

and oral tradition and story culture and

41:48

this weird town that might be a

41:51

way station for the underworld, where's

41:54

the Venn diagram where all these things overlap

41:56

with Carcosa and Tuttles and who did what?

41:59

I just need to. Plant me somewhere where

42:01

I understand what these things are saying. I

42:03

don't other so. Is that

42:05

symbol? I kidding I didn't die and

42:07

spin myself out and speciale at lake about what

42:09

what they were looking for. It's like you know

42:12

is as a suggest the total. Corporation.

42:14

Is a holding company for all these places that

42:17

I don't even want to know the tunnels are

42:19

looking for. I want to know a clark and

42:21

any are doing making you know making a like

42:23

dark Alexander Calder. Exhibit I thought

42:25

that was savaged. So fucking cool. You

42:27

know what a one gallon why were

42:29

they doing that? What was their secret

42:31

demonic love that and ruptured when she

42:33

became he's you became Tessa. Three maneuvers

42:36

and sound spring telling Another one of

42:38

the actually the last unanswered questions I

42:40

have is just like to what extent

42:42

were some the things that we saw

42:44

the show actually things that happened vs

42:46

things that either any or danvers perceived.

42:49

The tongue Israel. Because. They

42:51

actually run forensics down. investigations are research into

42:53

it does figure out like when our that

42:55

is and who it belongs to and stuff

42:57

like that's by at the end of the

43:00

concession. So to speak of a the ladies

43:02

there like that was in us. We didn't

43:04

cut anybody's tongue, I wasn't our story. But.

43:07

We don't find out who story was. It's not just

43:09

we didn't cut it out, we didn't. Put. It there. Yeah,

43:12

Okay, we don't know what's going on with that now.

43:14

I also don't know when you're an article level. that

43:17

was would. That. Was why he

43:19

became the any investigation in addition to

43:21

be the otherwise. There. Was no.

43:24

There. Is no there there? I yeah connect these stories.

43:26

yes until he found out the clerk. Any connect it

43:28

with the tattoos probably would have eventually started to pull

43:30

together A by. The.

43:32

Last one I had was just like

43:34

the ones who is the murderers scientists

43:37

in the station. When he's

43:39

also the guy who's basically at tree

43:41

stumps. By. The end of

43:43

his and his you know they go visit him

43:45

in the hospital is Groot. And he

43:47

wakes up at is like your mother. A

43:50

vacuum of resists. Believe your mother's as a

43:52

lower. Some delays like the Mark Wahlberg isn't

43:54

yet, but he is. A fucking

43:57

possess Daemon, but only of Angeline.

43:59

Here's some. Can add you don't

44:01

ever say. By the way, one woke up

44:03

and had some stuff to say. so. Was

44:05

one some sort of deeper evil? Was

44:08

he possessed by some kind of like. Supernatural.

44:11

Powers or whatever. Like what are we supposed to

44:13

take from that? And other than

44:15

that like yeah there's a bunch of other questions I had

44:17

about like a when they saw that will. So.

44:20

Is that real? Was that in their heads?

44:22

The Christmas tree and the dredging station. Stuff

44:24

like done. But. As that's about it, Well.

44:28

I could have answers to these things out. What

44:30

if I surprise do And I did. I have

44:32

to. I've

44:35

to bigger. Points of

44:37

of concern: Concerts Commentary.

44:40

That and. Come out Of this. And

44:43

I think both of them are really I think

44:45

as he many ways the show is emblematic of

44:47

where we are with with tv. Good.

44:49

And bad in there's plenty of good and I apologize

44:51

or we're not. Dwelling on a lot of

44:54

it because I I really had a lot of

44:56

time for the show. At the beginning, I really

44:58

enjoyed Jodie Foster's performance. I thought that and I

45:00

mean this sincerely that for someone who has not

45:03

worked in Tv before to be writing and directing

45:05

six episodes or something to deliver on. A.

45:09

Particular vision I think. He said.

45:11

It. It delivered the show that I think she's

45:13

very much wanted to make it is proud of

45:15

an I think that's not a small thing. it's

45:17

very hard to do that on the scale and

45:19

execute but I do think there's there continues to

45:21

be of really worrying disconnect between. The.

45:23

Attitude of people who make Tv. As

45:26

being into things are business as usual. meeting

45:28

will figure it out eventually. We're. Sunk

45:30

cost we've hired said we we booked

45:32

locations in Iceland. We have these talents.

45:34

We're going to figure it out. We.

45:37

Don't know went on behind the scenes of the

45:39

show, But we have to put it, we keep

45:41

pointing out the fact that there were two writing

45:43

teams credited with the penultimate episode, which suggests that

45:45

there was something still being done when they were

45:47

filming earlier in the process. He. Tied

45:49

it. Can't just figure it out when you

45:51

are a closed and six hour show, you

45:53

can do it when you're a open ended

45:55

comedy. And. You're figuring out it's

45:58

funnier if if Michael Scott is. In

46:00

on the Germany, that or whatever race he kind

46:02

of can't do that. You have to you if

46:04

you're spending as much money doing this high stakes

46:06

and still limited way. You have

46:08

to do. I think you have to do more to.

46:11

He. Put in. Before. You get into it.

46:13

And I see this as someone who loves the improvisatory

46:15

nature of how lot of Tv is made. The.

46:18

Second thing that I kind of cake it over with a

46:20

show is it just reminded me that. I. Would

46:22

really, really love more programs. That.

46:25

Are about the present. I don't mean

46:27

that are like Rick from the Headlines

46:29

Twenty Twenty Four, but I mean about

46:31

the present engaged lives as it's characters

46:33

because. We. Are more

46:35

as human beings, not even fictional characters? We

46:37

are more than just like. Walking

46:39

around Skyn Sacks of our trauma in

46:41

history. Yes. We. Are more than

46:43

that. I agree and I think that Tv

46:45

storytelling has gone with some great You know

46:47

I may destroy you as a show about

46:50

trauma mean and not try to paint with

46:52

a wide wide brush year. but I think

46:54

that this mode of exploiting Tell hear about

46:56

was the promises this show for me and

46:58

as opening episode yeah that it was actually

47:00

something closer to Danvers and Navarro having different

47:02

approaches to address. And here's a crazy thing

47:05

that happened. Yeah and let's go and that

47:07

at Navarro is gonna kind of be an

47:09

extension of the community that she's police and

47:11

Danvers is gonna be more. Adversarial and what

47:13

happens in these two people are put

47:15

on an inexplicable cry together. Wonderfully said.

47:18

Absolutely absolutely. But it in said

47:20

we should. We are constantly pulled

47:22

backwards with not just loses or

47:24

loss of her son and a

47:26

car crash but also the wheel

47:28

or thing. I'm. Whatever happened

47:30

to have our own war? And. Then

47:33

of our as War story plus her sister

47:35

who is dispatch with pretty quickly it's whistles

47:37

meant to be. Taking that in it's just

47:39

it's is not a load bearing thing I

47:41

think us to comments are connected. Because

47:43

yeah you could do a long form exploration of people's

47:46

backstory while telling the story for it. But in more

47:48

than six episode sell. So. I.

47:51

know that i know i've been negative i feel like

47:53

you've been little more fair minded but i i i

47:55

think i for some reason i confronted look at the

47:57

my experience of the series and total okay so saga

47:59

total and in relationship to the larger franchise?

48:01

Well, I think that the larger franchise, I think

48:03

that this was obviously, I

48:06

think at times, like very well stitched to

48:08

the larger franchise in terms of like, it

48:13

acknowledged without trying to alter the

48:15

DNA, right? So it put

48:19

itself into the larger conversation

48:21

about True Detective and about like the

48:23

world that Nick Pizzolata sort of started

48:25

with those three seasons, but

48:28

it didn't try to ever say, this is

48:30

what Nick Pizzolata was really going for in

48:32

season one or three or whatever, specifically those

48:34

two. I do want to

48:36

evaluate it on like the joy it gave me

48:39

across the first three episodes to

48:41

maybe the disappointment I felt in the last three. I

48:43

think it's worth saying those, especially those

48:45

first three episodes were very

48:47

engaging. Like I was not, I'm not just

48:49

saying like, Oh, it's not bad. Like I

48:51

was fully in for sure and enjoying the

48:53

episode. I was not second screening. I was

48:56

not nitpicking. I mean, even episode, is it

48:58

five where they, I guess it would be

49:00

five where they do the, the

49:02

between the sort of privacy door,

49:05

like you're still into it. That was a beautiful scene. Yeah.

49:07

This was the first episode where there was nothing in particular

49:09

that I could pull out and say, aha, yeah,

49:12

I'm, I'm, I'm vibing with it, which is

49:14

strange because I, I did that recap. I,

49:16

you know, I missed some things. We joked

49:18

about others for an episode

49:20

of this link. I don't really find that

49:22

it ton happened in some ways because the,

49:25

the narrative was really

49:27

tied up in two major scenes, Clark explaining

49:29

what happened and the women explaining what happened,

49:32

you know, and priors, priors, like

49:34

sort of communion with his

49:36

father, like his, his, his bearing of his father

49:38

was really kind of

49:41

surplus to events. There's no consequences from

49:44

it. Nobody is, seems particularly stressed out

49:46

about it except for prior who

49:48

we get like one last shot of him lying awake

49:50

in bed, but I

49:52

don't know. But I want to, I want to go back to that

49:54

point you made, which is one of the things that we found interesting.

49:56

And I, and I want to stress this again. We're Just sitting

49:58

here on the sidelines.. And So. Though. You.

50:00

A Watching the world go by and be

50:02

like oh that's interesting to me is not

50:05

away for a creator of a show to

50:07

be responding or making anything but this is

50:09

something that you and I both picked up

50:11

on and agree about. Which is the idea

50:13

of the collision between who's doing the policing

50:15

and who's being policed in a in a

50:17

in a interesting locations such as Ennis is

50:19

at a powerful and. And I think

50:21

that and as brought up I mean like it's

50:23

really bad but. But.

50:27

I sidelining Pete into the father

50:29

stuff. The. Idea that comes up a

50:31

couple times of Taylor, she's just like I married

50:33

the white boy. This is what I get

50:35

that out, what happens that becomes secondary and

50:37

it becomes even more troubling when she's like

50:39

go do your evil thing and come back

50:41

to our families in the same way that

50:43

after she's had her experience in the ice with

50:45

is totally fine with his stepdaughter applying the

50:47

the the traditional down at at a news

50:49

called Face Face Painting death that she was

50:51

so angry about before. It's just like a

50:53

it's a magical supernatural switch. you get dumped

50:55

in the water and your baptized or believing in

50:58

Ns and you come out. The.

51:00

Conversation about why she wasn't letting that happen

51:02

In what it means to her. There's

51:05

no space for that, so instead she says

51:07

very angry about things she can't control throughout

51:09

we don't because isn't the implication that her.

51:12

Husband. Who's never really spoken over her

51:14

partner is himself indigenous I and died in

51:16

that car access and died in a car

51:19

accident. So what is the story of her

51:21

hostility? And. Could we have looked at

51:23

it more? I mean again, It. Is

51:25

the silliness is the thing though. It's like we is

51:27

the cheapest former criticism to be like why couldn't the

51:29

car gone But it's also like we asked if are

51:31

like I don't need those characters to be there simulation

51:34

of their traumas but if you're going to do trauma,

51:36

show me like you may have else and bolts of

51:38

the eye and tell the story. So it's Geico. I

51:40

also think that. I remain

51:42

a at is probably seems counterintuitive. But.

51:44

I still. I think my

51:47

feelings about the. Successor.

51:49

Failures or whatever you may want to calm

51:51

about the season could be put into a

51:53

different perspective in context If H B O

51:55

is committed to. Handing. The keys

51:57

to more people like of I would

51:59

love. It. They. Wouldn't do this for

52:01

any number of receptive desert town to to

52:03

trade. I add that will never do this

52:05

for both for reasons both financial, creative and

52:07

logistical. But if. He. Does this

52:10

is This edition was well get good ratings

52:12

or whatever. Did well for H B O

52:14

guess I would love it if Casey went

52:16

on stage and exam. He addresses people and

52:18

is just like hear the to people who

52:20

are getting the keys next. I. Don't

52:22

have more details but like the and then makers that

52:24

we date. Then. It becomes like

52:26

a said. it becomes kind of incredible. Like

52:29

like the Sundance Lab. It's like what's your

52:31

detective story. That what's your

52:33

true detective fight. Each unit

52:35

in a it it is tough to consider. that

52:37

is how the of it when you have three

52:39

seasons of one Very very specific dude. And

52:42

then this. Yes, and also,

52:44

I think a chunk of the

52:46

audience being engaged with it because

52:48

they're like I wanna see some

52:50

connective tissue to. The mothership

52:53

that I. Really? Adore. Yes,

52:55

I am. I don't know like demographically how that

52:58

breakdown in terms of the audience, like how many

53:00

people out there were like. Mcconnell

53:02

he's going to show up in, he's going to

53:04

be in this last season or something. It's also

53:06

just so weird to be like. What

53:08

is we? We should have been doing this before but

53:10

we have been doing it for weeks. But like what

53:13

is what makes a true detective and like. At

53:15

You and I both had a lot of

53:17

time for season three to season three work

53:20

better if it's not called for to Texas

53:22

like if it's just the Herschel are we

53:24

showcase that accommodates like called. Soldier Story.

53:26

Yeah, don't know a fair I I I,

53:28

I don't know, but again, I think I'll

53:30

be more. I think I would be more

53:32

chill about some of the allegiance and relationships

53:35

if they were part of a larger. Project.

53:38

Yeah, I'm not interested to read some of

53:40

the stuff the he says as coming out

53:42

of this. And. Some of the

53:44

sort of like explanations about some of the material,

53:46

obviously. some. Simply. Strings? I don't know

53:48

and they made props like she would come back to

53:51

this material at some point. I.

53:53

Look forward to reading some of her her statements

53:55

about like the show itself I also would just

53:57

say like. Have to

53:59

add to my. a collection of things I'm

54:01

suddenly announcing as emblematic of television. Like

54:04

the kind of Joaquin Phoenix gladiator thumb

54:06

on an entire project that people spent years

54:09

on because we got six hours

54:11

of it is tough. You know,

54:13

I think that there were a lot of things to like in

54:15

this show. I've already seen

54:17

even in advance of the finale people being

54:19

like, well, why was so much time spent

54:21

on John Hawks being catfished by his

54:24

Russian bride? But I'm like, that made the show

54:26

good too. Yeah, it also made Hank something other

54:28

than this nefarious white guy standing in the background

54:30

of scenes where you're like, I know you guys

54:32

hired John Hawks to be something more than the

54:34

sixth cop. Yeah, I mean, then also Christopher Eggleston

54:37

showing up for two scenes. I mean, he actually

54:39

was only in a for two scenes. I mean,

54:41

I guess you could say like he was part

54:43

of the conspiracy. In his interviews, he was like,

54:45

they said, come to Iceland and do scenes with

54:47

Jodie Foster, who's one of my heroes. So he

54:49

was happy to do anything. But

54:51

I'm saying like those details matter. The attention

54:53

that she paid to things within these stories

54:55

doesn't matter and are significant for the medium

54:58

for storytelling and they are good. Like I

55:00

will continue to say like what she did

55:02

with the cremation scene at the top of

55:04

the last episode is really fascinating and

55:06

very, very unique and suggest

55:09

a different way. I

55:11

think the imagining

55:13

of the station, the imagining of the ice cave beneath

55:15

the station, the idea of the hatch, like there's so

55:17

much stuff to like in this. I just don't think

55:20

story wise, like it eventually like added up for

55:23

me. And I think that, to

55:25

be frank, I think that that is a, ultimately

55:28

a lot of this are the problems with the box, not what

55:30

you're putting in the box. Yeah. Okay,

55:32

let's wrap there. We're gonna be back on

55:35

Thursday. We'll talk a little Mr. Spade, maybe we'll talk some

55:37

Abbott Elementary, maybe we'll talk some Tokyo Voice. There's so much

55:39

stuff on right now. Thanks to Kaya for producing us and

55:41

thanks to everybody for listening to our True Detective pods over

55:44

the last couple of weeks. See you in

55:46

Carcosa, Branson. Bye.

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