0:03

Hello, friends. And welcome to the way I heard it.

0:05

This is episode number 230, and it's called it's not the itching.

0:09

It's the chafing.

0:10

My

0:10

guest

0:10

today

0:10

is

0:10

one

0:10

of

0:10

my

0:10

very

0:10

favorite

0:10

TV

0:10

producers

0:10

of

0:10

all

0:16

time. And one of my favorite humans too, her name is Sarah your ground.

0:19

And she is quite possibly the most positive, upbeat, optimistic glass, half full kind of gal to ever work in television.

0:27

Sarah is so sweet that she makes my teeth hurt sometimes, but I love her anyway because her relentless unwavering brand of optimism is not an act.

0:38

Sarah, your growl truly loves her fellow man and is dedicated to making our world a better place by working on TV shows that highlight the best of our species.

0:49

We spent a few years together, Sarah and me working together on one such show, the Emmy award winning program called returning the favor.

0:59

For those of you who don't know returning the favor was a Facebook show that celebrated people who did nice things to make their communities a better place.

1:09

We celebrated these people by well, by lying to them, by making them think we were making a documentary, getting to know them and then surprising them with an elaborate gift.

1:20

At the end of each episode, it was a feel-good show like dirty jobs.

1:24

RTF was programmed by the viewers.

1:27

We had a large, super engaged audience, and I figured I'd be hosting it for the next five or 10 years, because honestly I've never worked on a show that was more apropos to a divided country than returning the favor.

1:42

We went on the air shortly after the election in 2016, which as you might recall, was somewhat contentious.

1:49

And I think we did a really good job of proving that people on both sides of the aisle were still capable of kindness and decency, but then to the surprise of Sarah and me and everybody else involved, including roughly 2 million loyal fans, Facebook canceled returning the favor after a hundred episodes.

2:10

So full disclosure, the conversation you're about to hear might sound a little indulgent, worse.

2:19

It might even sound in parts like were pissed off about Facebook's decision to cancel our show at the height of its popularity for the record.

2:26

We're not, we're not angry.

2:28

We're still a little confused, but here's the thing not a day goes by that.

2:33

Somebody doesn't ask me why returning the favor was canceled and whether or not it's ever coming back.

2:39

And the short answers are, I don't know.

2:42

And I don't know, but I do think the fans of the show might like to listen in on a candid conversation between Sarah and me, since truth be told, Sarah was in many ways more connected to returning the favor than I was.

2:57

And because really who among us today, couldn't use a blast of unbridled sunshine called Sarah your ground with that said, this is episode number 230.

3:08

It's

3:08

not

3:08

the

3:11

itching. It's the chafing.

3:18

This holiday season. A lot of people are going to be doing something they haven't done in quite a while.

3:22

They're going to be spending time with family and that's great.

3:26

Families are great, but hanging out with family, especially on the holidays can also be, oh, what's the word?

3:33

Exhausting.

3:33

After

3:33

long

3:33

days

3:33

filled

3:33

with

3:33

family,

3:33

friends

3:33

and

3:33

fun

3:33

that

3:33

you

3:33

might

3:33

want

3:33

to

3:33

consider

3:33

winding

3:33

down

3:33

a

3:33

bit

3:33

with

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4:30

That's calm.com/mc.

4:39

I can't believe we're going to start another one of these things by bitching about my producer and the audio, Sarah.

4:45

But, but we're going to, Could

4:48

you expect anything less than me? I'm consistent in my performance.

4:51

These are just mere props for me.

4:55

Where are you? It looks like you're in a bunker.

4:58

Yeah, I'm in a pretty unfortunate environment at the moment.

5:00

So I just returned from six weeks traveling where two weeks prior I moved into, I finally did it and I moved to California.

5:08

Something I've been wanting to do for years after 10 years in New York.

5:12

And so I'm in this beautiful home that I loved from all the hardwood floors, but from a listening perspective, it's just awful.

5:21

Yeah. And I understand the place is full of Jews.

5:24

The bubbling with Jews I've just returned from two weeks in Israel, right?

5:30

A place that like, if anyone has family who's Jewish or mainly Israeli there's, the walls are merely a metaphor, right?

5:37

There's no such thing as a wall or a door.

5:39

And so now I have that is followed me home.

5:43

So it's this really sort of cultural ballet downstairs.

5:49

People are in your house right now At the moment, six to nine at any given moment tonight.

5:57

And It actually never, never ends.

6:05

And I am just, it's an identity crisis under siege.

6:08

I can only speak to an extent if they come up with a whole other vocabulary word I'm out of the conversation.

6:14

I'm just out.

6:16

Yeah. Like what kind of terms are being just thrown around right now?

6:20

I've given them a task because my father-in-law is a plumber and a really, really incredible craftsmen with these things.

6:26

So I'm like, listen, if you're going to be here, you're going to work.

6:29

So

6:29

they're

6:29

right

6:29

now

6:29

dismantling,

6:29

I

6:29

don't

6:29

know

6:29

what

6:29

they're

6:33

doing. They're breaking all kinds of building codes, just classic classic Israeli.

6:37

So we have these conversations that like him and I, I'm very clearly a verbal person.

6:42

I could talk to a wall. I love people and him and I, we like barely can be in the same room together because we can't speak, he has this shame about not speaking English.

6:52

And I have this sort of exhaustion about my Hebrew level.

6:56

Right. Cause I'm very, I can go in order, like, you know, a juice on the streets and I can make everyone think I'm a local, but do not talk to me further than that.

7:04

So I plan my wedding in Israel as you know, Mike, and there was a whole genre of language I just had never used before.

7:12

They didn't teach us that in Hebrew school. Right. I didn't know how to say, like not in the contract or it toughens you up real fast.

7:22

And the literal translations back to English are very abrupt.

7:26

Like a lot of give me just like, I don't like that.

7:31

Things like that, they don't have the same sort of padding their bowling alleys don't have bumpers on it.

7:36

Let me just say that. Yes, your people, I mean, not to stereotype seamlessly, but you're not really known for gilding.

7:43

The Lily, there is a directness, but you, one of the first things I noticed about you was just this annoying and chronic level of kindness and optimism and eagerness to both be understood and to make sure everyone around you is always comfortable.

8:02

You're just so annoyingly.

8:05

Nice. I'll never forget the day we met on returning the favor and by the way, thank you for doing this with me.

8:11

I haven't really talked to anyone publicly since the show was canceled.

8:17

And part of the reason is because for the life of me, I don't understand it.

8:24

It's absolutely one of the most baffling decisions.

8:27

I've not to overstate it or make it personal, but the most baffling decision I've ever seen in show business.

8:35

And so here we are Christmas, your favorite holiday.

8:40

And I thought, what better time to look back and reflect a bit with the most optimistic person I know here on the heels of her nuptials and her great traveling adventure.

8:52

There's so much I want to talk to you about, but I love the fact that we just kind of stumbled into this thing around travel, because I think that might be part of the essence of who you are Deeply.

9:04

Thank you, Mike.

9:05

I always feel very seen by you even reluctantly.

9:08

You've always seen me.

9:11

Yeah. Miss you like stepping into gum you're everywhere, But

9:15

it's always your favorite flavor. Isn't it?

9:17

I

9:17

also

9:17

felt

9:17

this

9:22

really. I mean, it's been this huge, there was a grieving process right after RTF because we were in it.

9:27

We were, the momentum was still rushing and gushing and the people, I mean the messages and the sort of almost desperate calls for action that they were just flooding inboxes with about why is this program gone?

9:39

And this is such a huge part of our lives and it was a movement.

9:42

And I'd say it's taken probably six months to really wrap my head around this identity shift.

9:48

And then also now a real desire to return and continue in this wave in some way, continue in this work because it's who I am.

9:58

I would venture to say, it's who you are too in your corner, in the decks of your heart.

10:03

No, it's not. It's not, no, not even close.

10:06

I'm slightly nicer, I think, than most people in this industry.

10:10

And maybe a little bit kinder than the average homosapien.

10:15

But next to you, I'm Jeffrey Dahmer next to you.

10:21

I'm a mass murderer. You are a little Ray of sunshine and I didn't realize it right away, but returning the favor was it was your show in a weird way.

10:31

You were the dominant producer and you wormed your way with so much screen time.

10:38

I've really never seen anybody just sandbag, a host like the way you just took over that show.

10:45

You and I on camera had a really great vibe because you are unapologetically and aggressively optimistic and I'm older than I've ever been somewhat bitter broken.

10:55

And I think between the two of us, the viewer got a pretty honest sense that two people who really liked each other were out in the world to try and find people that you wish you had for neighbors.

11:05

And that's why our little show wasn't really a show at all.

11:09

It was a mission with cameras following us around.

11:12

Can you see the Emmy in the background?

11:15

Okay. There, Sarah, do you See it clear as day, Mike?

11:18

I see it clear as day.

11:20

Good. Because about two weeks after I got it, that's when they canceled the show.

11:23

How

11:23

the

11:23

hell

11:23

is

11:27

that? I genuinely have no idea.

11:29

And really when it ended, like I felt like we have this deep mission that we had started and we needed to get, like, if anything, it has shown us.

11:38

It is proof of concept that I will be doubling down on in some capacity.

11:43

Let's use the data, the numbers, the boring terms that gets fixed green-lit sometimes, but it's so much more it's superseded its platform.

11:51

It was beyond, it was a movement.

11:53

It was really a movement.

11:55

It was a speaking beyond a lot of the junk food that people get served to say, no, we actually want and demand something more nourishing.

12:01

And we want to see our higher selves reflected back in us in an accessible way.

12:07

Not in this weird, you know, my favorite part about these last few years has been this really demise, I think, where this massive shift in our celebrity culture, right?

12:17

And this idea of like, these are the gatekeepers for conversation or for impact or anything.

12:22

And I think the power of our show and you and I have talked about this at length sometimes on camera, sometimes off the power is that it's the people that it's the everyday people.

12:32

It's the people who also are grumpy in the morning at times, or, you know, mark, their almond butter is peanut butter.

12:39

It's cheaper or something.

12:41

They're not these perfect creatures, but there are people who have, once you get a taste of what service can feel like, and once you get a taste of what it feels like to amplify a cause and a mission bigger than ourselves, there's just no filling that with anything else.

12:57

Right? It's the best drug in the world.

12:59

Yes. Everything in moderation is where I come from.

13:01

So I usually draw the line before things lapse too far into that earnest, sickeningly sweet goal that you hold.

13:10

So dear, but for me, this'll sound weird to people I'm sure, but I genuinely love finding people.

13:18

I think you should know. And introducing the country to them that I think is my job more so than hosting shows.

13:24

That's my job.

13:26

It's your life.

13:27

It is your whole thing.

13:29

And so you were different than the other producers on the show, Jacob and Michael and all those guys, Chuck, I don't know how much you knew about their background, but these poor bastards, they were working on real Housewives real week after week after week after week.

13:47

And so it's like the opposite of anything that I would ever watch with respect.

13:51

And so to see Michael Rourke truly, you know, I mean a TV guy for decades, all of a sudden get this show on the air.

14:00

He pulled me aside one day, I think we were at a, oh, we were over in Richmond.

14:04

Not far from me here, giving away musical instruments, music, man.

14:09

Yes, the music man.

14:10

And he pulled me aside. He said, Mike Rowe, you always call me Mike Gross.

14:14

Like John Rich, he couldn't call me. Mike is like Mike Rowe.

14:17

My family pulled me aside the other day and said that this project is the first time they saw anything that made them proud of me.

14:31

And this is a man approaching 50 at that time I ever know in his fist, It's

14:34

about approaching he's. He waved goodbye to 55 years ago to watch the most jaded TV people weep during some of these reveals.

14:46

And just sit down after the show and just talk about what a joy it was to work on it.

14:53

Honestly, that kind of thing makes my teeth hurt, but I couldn't help, but be touched by it.

14:58

And so we were really lucky, Sarah, we did a hundred episodes of a show that snuck its way into social media and was downloaded over 400 million times.

15:09

We had a good run.

15:11

I had a great run. And to me, that's the deep inspiration of the run.

15:15

10 continue. I have such deep hope that this is a transition happening on a larger level.

15:21

For sure. I mean, we really changed the game in that in terms of being a show, I think predominantly because of your insistence at the beginning, that this needs to be a transparent experience.

15:31

We need to remove that fourth wall that makes it actually feel accessible versus feeling like, oh, this is smoked.

15:37

Mirror is Hollywood. My minds can't make that jump to doing it in my own life because it already feels so separate from you removed that barrier showed all of it showed the sloppiness, showed the grind because Stevie making is a grind, right?

15:52

This is how it all comes together.

15:54

But I'm just so inspired and revved up.

15:58

I believe in people, I really believe in people.

16:01

And once you get a taste of that, there's nothing else that really palatable.

16:07

So if you take that basic belief that you just described and then kind of filtered through the world we're living in right now and after a year and a half of lockdowns, I want to get your take because you have been all over the world.

16:19

Since I saw you last I've said from the beginning that people are dealing with this, whether it's Alma, Cron, or Delta or alpha, or the lockdowns or the loss of their jobs or whatever, like the five stages of grief, but everybody's going through the stages at different speeds to this day, walking around, you can still see it, right?

16:40

There's anger, there's denial.

16:42

There's bargaining.

16:43

Oh, look, that was just depressed.

16:46

That would accepted it.

16:47

So what are you seeing out there in your travels and where are you as if I didn't know you accepted this thing about two seconds after it was announced, I'll

16:59

first start with where I'm at and then I'll take you on a little tour because there is definitely a massive difference.

17:04

And I do think the seven stages of grief is a really great way to us to view Don't

17:10

make it worse. There are only five, there are only five left.

17:14

You have all people want more grief.

17:16

No, I think we need seven.

17:17

We need abject despair and hopelessness.

17:22

You know, I like to throw that in, But

17:24

Well

17:24

I

17:24

stopped

17:24

with

17:28

depression.

17:30

Yeah. Depression, depravity, despair, contempt, hopelessness, and resignation.

17:36

Beautiful. Okay. So the five, the strong five full five, number one I've been in and out of therapy since I was eight years old because my mom's a child family therapist.

17:46

So learning how to identify a name, my feelings is a very, it's a practice.

17:51

Like even if I was talking about a painting I painted and I had nothing to talk about.

17:55

I learned how to talk about it. And so I'm really fascinated by resilience and optimism for me becomes a strategy it's like hope is a cognitive function versus an actual arrival.

18:07

It's really retraining.

18:09

Can you hear them sawing outside my father-in-law and my husband.

18:12

Okay, let me just, Let me just let it go.

18:16

Do We like it? We just feel like the leaf blower it's become this, this intense sort of drill into my skull has become just like ambient noise for me.

18:25

I want to see how a fundamentally optimistic soul handles that soul deadening grip of environmental torture.

18:32

I just want to see All

18:34

that to be said is I got my first reaction when all this hit really right away, I feel a lot of sense of self in.

18:42

I think you can only amplify your light gets built by the more time you spend in the shadows, right?

18:48

That's actually how I can amplify it by being in the shadow and helping to spread that light more.

18:53

And so I felt deeply sort of mission centered and full of purpose.

18:59

And my tank filled during this time.

19:03

And I think by virtue of like, listen, I got the privilege of having almost four years in my tank of seeing people, seeing incredible people, doing incredibly selfless things and then getting to award them and pour rocket fuel on whatever their missions were and getting to dive in there and seeing them light up.

19:23

Even seeing them light up, traveling around with you, who was beloved by all like so many of these people and gave such a sense of hope.

19:29

I mean, my tank was full.

19:31

So I have to acknowledge that to where I was at at that time.

19:34

But I really believe like my optimism is a daily practice.

19:38

It's a daily choice. It got fiercer and stronger throughout this whole time.

19:42

And now I feel like more than ever, people are wondering these five stages of grief.

19:47

I'll speak specifically.

19:48

When I went to Israel, people looked, shell shocked, they looked traumatized and they look tired.

19:55

I can see a degree of fatigue in everybody that I meet regardless of the countries that I'm in, because there is just like even the managing of that change the constant, I mean, life is nothing but transition, right?

20:09

And it's our relationship with change that determines how, what sort of life we're going to live.

20:13

Right? But this has been an incredible amount of change in such a short amount of time.

20:18

And not everyone has had the resources to deal with it.

20:20

You know, everything, we know all the pretense around that.

20:23

Let me talk you through what I felt in the countries I went to, I was filming in Lisbon.

20:27

Lisbon is, hold it out Portugal.

20:30

It was as if they were not, I don't want to speak to anyone's experiences who has been living there and had another experience.

20:36

But I do tend to feel like those who live by the sea.

20:39

They have a lot of nature.

20:40

They have a breathing space.

20:43

Hold on a sec, Chuck, just by way of explanation.

20:45

Part of the reason I wanted to talk to Sarah today, it was probably four or five months ago.

20:50

I think I was down in Florida doing something and I was at a Marriott and it was like two in the morning and I was all jet lagged and I'm flipping the TV around.

20:58

And there is this woman being shot on this long lens, like walking in, slow motion through fields.

21:06

And I don't know where she is, but she looks familiar and I'm like lying there.

21:10

I'm like, damn it. That looks like Sarah.

21:12

That's so weird.

21:14

It looks so much like Sarah. And then the woman starts talking in voiceover about what it's like to wander through the sores and Portugal.

21:22

I'm like, that's Sarah.

21:24

So she's one of these bond, voice travel specialists now telling her story, you know, I was so tired, but I couldn't fall asleep now.

21:33

I mean, I'm there in a Marriott watching Sarah I'm like, what is she doing?

21:36

Why is she in the ASRS? Anyway, go ahead.

21:39

Because obviously you said Lisbon, that must've been what you were filming over there.

21:44

So sterically, first of all, absolutely hysterical.

21:46

I was looking For

21:48

exactly

21:52

What a bummer, the opposite of what you were looking for.

21:55

No doubt telling you some sort of slow humdrum about, I

22:01

don't want to hear about wheat fields and family trees.

22:04

That's not what I'm looking for at two in the morning and a Marriott brown chicken brown cow.

22:11

I'm looking for a mini bar and a little quiet time.

22:18

I got that dead ball going to my door. I'm ready to rock.

22:21

Do not disturb, do not come in here.

22:25

Now I'm

22:31

going to be popping up for the next two years.

22:34

I would keep scanning through your channels quickly.

22:39

It was beautiful by the way, all kidding aside, it was beautifully shot.

22:42

And you told a great story about, I think if I remember the Jewish diaspora, right?

22:48

Or diaspora, your people all over looking for your roots, did you find them?

22:54

Totally. I found aspects of it.

22:57

So my family traced back, thanks to good old 23 and me and some help from ancestry.com.

23:01

I have found that my family traces back to the ASRS and there's this one synagogue, this left on the ASRS and my dad who used to own a documentary film production company back in the day, did this voyage across, over there and built these sort of initial relationships for me to be able to go in there and the aging process of every year of your life.

23:25

Whenever you're confronted more with your mortality, I get everything gets more poetic.

23:29

You have more interesting curiosity to figure out where you're from and connect you to something bigger.

23:34

We found that we're from this small enclave of Jews that were kicked out in the inquisition and like we're underground.

23:43

Really. We're probably masquerading Christians at that time or Catholics.

23:47

And we're really observing and keeping Jewish tradition within these beautiful Hills and in these sort of cave, temples and all these places.

23:58

But what really struck me and moved me and probably impacted me most about even just studying.

24:03

This is just how, as anyone in the diaspora story is the only thing that maintains, right?

24:09

Like half of your, most of my family was in Western Europe during world war two Jews.

24:15

It wasn't exactly like an ideal time to be there.

24:18

So you lose a lot of things.

24:21

So you don't have the same tangibles to return to.

24:24

And I could argue, most people don't have that as a carrier to the line, but story is really just what maintains.

24:30

I'm sure these things get amplified.

24:32

Someone draws a little, something extra on a cave wall.

24:35

Larry's always exaggerating adding another cow to the dowry.

24:39

I

24:39

mean,

24:39

these

24:39

are

24:39

stories

24:39

that

24:39

my

24:39

grandfather,

24:39

my

24:39

dad's

24:39

grandfather

24:39

told

24:39

us

24:39

through

24:48

time. And through that game of telephone, it's just been so powerful to travel that area with another set of eyes and a sense of sort of connection deeper because America is so we're such a hodgepodge.

24:59

We're all from somewhere else and we've arrived here.

25:03

And I would argue all rallying behind this idea.

25:06

The ideal of America that we want to defend is an idea, but we're all from so many different places that I'm seeing us develop more of a, I don't know, relationship with that as our world gets more global, it's just happening in real time for me.

25:20

So I'm sort of in it and observing it simultaneously As

25:28

a guy who enjoys four cups of coffee, every single morning, a glass of wine at dinner and a sensible bourbon in the evening hours.

25:35

I'm not inclined to scold those of you who still smoke cigarettes or suck on a vape pipe or jam great wads of chewing tobacco between your cheek and gum, and then proceed to spit brown juice into a styrofoam cup all day long.

25:49

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27:06

So by and large, it's still fun, right?

27:09

Losing, returning the favor was kind of a shock.

27:12

I worry about some of the other people who were involved in the show, because I know it really was like, wait a second.

27:19

You seem to have just kind of doubled down on being Sarah.

27:23

Are you expecting this thing to resurrect itself in some way, shape or form somehow or another?

27:31

I would very much love that. I just can't see any scenario I have about the future.

27:37

That's authentic and happy and full and real in me.

27:40

It has huge amounts of RTF in it, right?

27:45

Whatever new manifestation of that.

27:47

And I feel like I kind of feel this responsibility to continue moving forward.

27:54

Right. I have the power and the energy and the interest and on a selfish level, nothing that makes me feel more full and whole then elevating the right people and stories, getting people to rally around that and mainly getting people.

28:07

I think the thing that makes me most exhilarated, you know, I'm a musical theater personified, sorry, Chuck.

28:13

You're not as probably used to the No,

28:17

I grew up in .

28:18

Yes,

28:18

yes,

28:21

yes. Oh, you're my people. Okay, great.

28:23

Or I'm yours?

28:25

What I've been really like during this whole year, because I also wanted to sit back and the world is changing rapidly, right?

28:32

The stories that we're needing and people are tired, right?

28:35

People are really tired right now exhausted.

28:37

And so it's a little bit of a different world where we were riding that upswing with RTF.

28:43

And now people are just needing that rest on the plateau for a moment.

28:47

And then we get our energy to climb another mountain or whatever.

28:50

Our next thing is, RTF made me realize we can do things so differently.

28:54

We can do things so, so differently.

28:56

And I want to inspire people in whatever way I can, whether it's amplifying stories or sharing different messages, or just rallying my energy behind.

29:05

I want to ignite people's sense of agency to feel like as an individual, they do have the ability to impact a collective.

29:12

They recognize the power of what it means to start in their community and at home, and what an act of kindness really can do beyond a buzzword.

29:21

Wow. When was the moment when you thought, oh crap, this thing is bigger than I thought.

29:27

Maybe we got a tiger by the tail.

29:32

At one point we sort of stopped needing words to connect with each other.

29:37

And there was this real improv magic of understanding each other and the ball throwing back and forth and back and forth while we were building something bigger than ourselves.

29:46

That was just such a nourishing.

29:49

I don't even know what better word for it, but just such a full wholehearted.

29:54

It's the feeling you get probably Chuck when you're performing and you have your lines and you're in that moment and you've built a paradigm in that reality with any of the other players on the stage.

30:05

And it's really the special paradigm that you've built, that all the noise of the outside world melts away and you're just present.

30:12

You're just focused so deeply on, on these moments.

30:14

And because I'd done so many shows before this, so many, you have to really work at that.

30:20

And you're usually alone kind of the one trying to not be negative while everyone changed, smokes their cigarettes and has 96 cups of coffee.

30:30

I can tell you as an observer of this, seeing you, I don't remember what the episode was, but I do remember the first time I saw you interacting with Mike.

30:40

And I was like, oh wow. Because it really was special.

30:43

You guys had a great chemistry straight out of the gate.

30:46

And let me just say this as a guy who doesn't like, I can be sappy, I suppose.

30:52

But you mentioned before about how breaking the fourth wall was such an important thing.

30:57

Mike insisted on that and said, this isn't a feel good show.

31:00

This is the making of a feel-good show.

31:02

And I think it made all the difference in the world because I never watched an episode of this show that didn't get me a little Misty at the end.

31:10

And usually it was because it was so casual, a lot of back and forth because we were seeing the warts and all aspect of it, all of a sudden, when something real got there, it was like, oh wow.

31:22

You know, this is really good stuff. It was just beautiful.

31:25

And I never should have gone away.

31:27

I agree. And I do think though that there's, the audiences voted, right.

31:31

They voted with their attention in a time.

31:34

That's the only kind of metric that really matters in real impact way.

31:38

They very clearly showed up for that.

31:39

It showed us that people are able to draw a connection between what they're observing behind a screen to their real lives.

31:46

Right? Like I always said, we're an online show that creates offline action.

31:49

And it's the constant, which, you know, I do attribute to my completely for holding that cultural pillar that he sort of continued, that torch passed along to me as well.

32:00

So he's now also like really maintaining that and demanding that, that it's got to feel like you've kicked your shoes off and you're curling up with something warm on a friend's couch and it's gotta be a Trojan horse.

32:11

Like we need to be entertained.

32:13

I do. Tainment is real.

32:15

I learn best when I'm laughing, I can relate.

32:17

What do they say? That laughter is like a, another form of prayer, the highest form of prayer, even if we're telling fart jokes.

32:25

And I'm one of one women with 900 guys, but I would argue that I could hang and handle it.

32:30

I have a twin brother.

32:33

I been in the cab with you, that Ford Explorer we were coming back from that Mexican joint.

32:37

We were running late. You were super excited.

32:40

You're barking out orders.

32:41

And suddenly I'm like, you want to crack a window, Sarah.

32:44

I mean, honest to God, what happened Family?

32:51

We lived on the road. People said, Chuck, in regard to the dynamic, you're talking about that.

32:56

The show worked best. When we finally let Hudson be Hudson, the production company and let Mike be Mike.

33:02

But the truth is Sarah was somewhere between the two of us.

33:06

She was the connective tissue that allowed a pretty traditional production company who wanted to do a fairly straightforward show.

33:15

And by the way, that's what Facebook wanted to write.

33:17

They wanted to move that bus. They just wanted to go straight for the fields, but you can't get straight to the fields without manipulating people.

33:24

And so I didn't want to do that.

33:26

And that was the tricky balance.

33:29

And Sarah is actually Sarah's filthy Chuck.

33:33

I mean, you don't get it, but shit, a filthy sense of humor.

33:35

She's really inappropriate.

33:37

She'll fart.

33:38

If she feels like it, she'll tell off-color jokes, but she's so sweet.

33:43

And she's so relentlessly optimistic that that's what makes her interesting.

33:48

But finally, to give credit where it's due, I'll take my share of it because the idea of a documentary camera or a BTS camera originated with dirty jobs, the smartest thing I did on that show, and the only reason it's coming back next month is because we got that component introduced into the production back in 2005.

34:09

It wouldn't have happened here, but for Mary Sullivan, you know, Mary, Sarah, you love Mary who doesn't love Mary.

34:17

I love Mary, but I passed on this show three times.

34:21

No hell no.

34:24

And are you out of your mind?

34:25

Stop asking me right?

34:27

There was just no way I'm going to do a feel good show no way in the world.

34:31

But it was Mary who pulled me aside and said, look, dummy, just do the same thing you did with dirty jobs.

34:37

Just document the making of the show.

34:39

Everything else will be what it is.

34:41

I didn't know what that meant, but she was right.

34:44

It's so difficult today to get a hit show in general, as everybody on this call knows, but to get a hit show, that's unique and not derivative.

34:55

That's nearly impossible.

34:57

And to get a hit show, that's unique that has 2 million followers on Facebook who every single week are going, Hey, that was great.

35:07

What about this? What about him?

35:09

You know, to have the show programmed for you by fans of the show that is insanely rare.

35:15

It's lightning in a bottle it's very weird to get.

35:19

And that's why I think we were all surprised when Facebook said, no, you know what?

35:22

I think, you know, we're good. We did a hundred. We want to do something else.

35:25

It's their sandbox, no harm, no foul.

35:27

But boy, it was just a straight up surprise for anybody who works in this industry.

35:34

As we all have to have a network slash platform go, wow.

35:40

Yeah, that was amazing.

35:41

I guess we're done.

35:42

Like what done?

35:45

I would argue there was harm and foul.

35:47

It was just such a missed Opportunity.

35:54

The difference between this show, everything you just said, I agree wholeheartedly completely.

35:58

And we were flabbergasted.

35:59

And as we all accelerated through those stages of grief, everyone's at different levels with this whole RTF community, it felt like this isn't even a show.

36:09

This is about real people. They're real people now who are missing out on the ability to be amplified.

36:14

They're real people who need this lift.

36:17

This is where all the television money should go to.

36:20

These are the people who need that endless amount of advertising cash or whatever it is.

36:25

This is the stuff that's really moving the needle.

36:27

And if you want to walk your talk, there's no better treadmill than RTF, right?

36:32

We had a formula going, but it was about real people and it still is about real people.

36:36

And that makes it bigger than my sadness or bigger than my frustration or bigger than my loss of that paycheck.

36:44

Absolutely. Look, first and foremost, we're just friends and we're talking casually and off the cuff.

36:49

And honestly, but I know that the fundamental feeling for this whole thing is one of gratitude.

36:54

We were given an extraordinary platform, the chance to reach a billion people and a lot of money.

37:02

We gave away millions of dollars on this show and we all got paid fairly.

37:08

I don't mean any of this to sound critical of Facebook.

37:12

They gave us an extraordinary platform and a hundred swings at the periodic and we hit it every time.

37:20

It's just that Facebook is not a network.

37:24

Facebook is a different animal.

37:27

I don't believe.

37:28

I mean, I can't speak for them, but I don't think they looked at this as a show either.

37:34

They looked at it as a thing to do for awhile and then they need to do another thing.

37:40

And that's okay.

37:41

We just weren't used to it.

37:43

Unfortunately, neither were the fans.

37:46

I don't know about you, but not a day goes by where I don't hear from dozens of them.

37:50

I mean, literally dozens, when's it coming back.

37:53

And also how is so-and-so doing?

37:56

Do you keep up with any of them?

37:59

Totally. You're absolutely right.

38:00

And I will also say that Facebook gave us tremendous freedom.

38:03

My critique is more of just, it's an optimistic critique because I do think there's new portals open and new.

38:10

We've challenged some convention.

38:12

These last few years, you've been challenging convention since 2005 before that, but we've challenged some convention that makes me think there are now other ways to move around there.

38:23

Other gatekeepers, there are other ways to get back to the people which really matters, but Facebook did give us tremendous freedom and an amazing platform for that.

38:31

I get messages like that all the time as well.

38:34

I do my best to keep up. I have insane Google docs of everybody that I know any community organizer, even someone who maybe helped us or assisted or do gooder or insider and their wife and just little notes, you'd make it like a hostess stand.

38:50

You know, like Larry blue eyes, dad jokes or something like that.

38:55

Like he just something that clusters.

38:57

And I'm just looking at this document and it's this beautiful mosaic of the other America.

39:04

That's very real and that's alive and is true.

39:09

The multiple truths of all times.

39:11

But there are so many do gooders in this country.

39:15

And I argue everyone's capable of it. You know where I stand.

39:17

I know where you stand gets a bit like I watched.

39:20

It's a wonderful life yesterday for maybe the 500th time in my life.

39:24

It gets me every time.

39:27

And I see something new in it.

39:30

Every time I watch it, I think of that movie so much.

39:34

Or I thought of it so much when we were filming this series because we really are connected.

39:40

And sometimes it's not the reward.

39:43

It's not the money that we were giving these people.

39:47

It was just paying attention and putting them up on that platform.

39:50

Think about Luke Mickelson.

39:52

That may have been the episode where I met you As

39:57

my first episode. Twin falls.

39:59

Yeah. It wouldn't be false was when I got out of the van and I met him in real time on camera.

40:07

Yeah. And I started correcting her in the car, like we're driving along and she's in the back seat.

40:12

She goes, well, our honoree this week is especially good.

40:15

And I'm like, I know Sarah.

40:16

They're all equally good.

40:19

Okay. You're going to suggest this guy is special.

40:22

You might as well just say the rest of them are dog crap.

40:25

Okay. Don't do that. Okay. Okay.

40:27

Okay. And then she said something else that I correct her again, just cause I'm just seeing where the line is with this woman.

40:32

But the line is nowhere. You can get away with anything with Sarah she'll roll with anything.

40:37

My point was, you loved Luke Mickelson, your enthusiasm for him.

40:44

This was the dynamic that I wanted in the show that I hadn't experienced yet.

40:50

I wanted a producer who was jumping out of their skin with enthusiasm to introduce me to someone.

40:55

And that's what you got immediately.

40:58

And you did.

40:59

And then we did, and then it goes on the air.

41:03

And this guy went from what? Eight chapters.

41:05

When we met him, I

41:07

think he has almost 600. Now.

41:09

I remember the year after he was, We've

41:13

been heavenly peace. This is the guy that makes the bunk beds for poor kids in really rough parts of town.

41:19

Kids have been sleeping on the ground every night in this country, millions of kids sleep on the floor.

41:25

They don't have a bed. It's incredible.

41:27

And this guy, Luke Mickelson just said, Nope, not my town started making beds.

41:32

He had eight chapters when Sarah introduced me to him.

41:35

And now I think he's well over 500.

41:37

I don't know how many you think about the impact of that day.

41:41

That one day, that one meeting and then returning the favor it goes on and his entire world changes.

41:47

That's not a TV show.

41:50

It's not a TV show. And you see it. Like I remember, I think we shot that the following year, less than a year later, I was living in New York and I met him in New York, down by central park where he was being nominated.

42:02

I came in with him and his wife, Heidi, an amazing woman.

42:05

And they invited me as their guest.

42:07

Cause I was living there to attend.

42:09

He was nominated for a CNN hero award.

42:12

So he gets to be put in other camps and he gets to be recognized.

42:15

And it was just that beautiful acceleration of I've always had a strange time with the people that we amplify culturally, particularly after, you know, no shame and escapist reality television neuron, like in the Bravo world or things like that.

42:30

I sometimes feel sad about the overemphasis we have on that with the underemphasis of some other people like people that you would highlight in dirty jobs.

42:37

Right? And so this show proved that that wasn't just a sweet, lovely, charming little concepts that actually could make you money on a bottom line level in terms of people being interested in it.

42:51

And it really actually inspired offline action, right?

42:55

It was not this that fourth wall was bringing it, it engaged the viewer.

42:58

It was a reciprocal process, right? The creation of the art, the reception of the art, putting it back in, it was just really, I can't think of another example of that show in any genre, right.

43:10

That really broke that We very nearly screwed it up a couple of times early on, because you just mentioned a four-letter word that really chaps my ass hero.

43:19

It's used all the time.

43:21

And in my opinion, it's misused more often than not.

43:25

Heroes are real and heroes are important.

43:28

It's something more than simply being kind and good and big hearted.

43:33

And that's part of the reason I was kind of a jagged little pill on returning the favor because I didn't want to turn these people into heroes.

43:41

I just wanted to thank them for being slightly better than the average bear producers have a hard time with that.

43:47

Producers want the hero.

43:49

We want the incredible in the first season, I remember sitting in on some production meetings and hearing things like, well, this guy is doing great work, but he got us some trouble years ago did a little time.

44:01

So we really can't put him out there as the embodiment of the kind of person we're looking for.

44:08

I was like, that's exactly what I want to do.

44:11

I would like to show people that even the fallen and the flawed are capable of doing something good And

44:18

arguably more, more capable, right?

44:21

When you felt what it feels like to have the fall, you can empathize with the people in that.

44:25

You know, you need to feel all the full range to be able to give the full Range.

44:29

You need to show the full range.

44:30

I'm suspicious to you.

44:32

I'm not sure this is a sentence I'm allowed to save.

44:35

I'm suspicious of diversity for diversity's sake, whatever.

44:40

I see every box checked in just the right way.

44:42

It makes me think, okay, well somebody is checking boxes, but on this show, it was really important.

44:47

And we featured many people of color.

44:51

We featured people of all orientations.

44:54

We featured, I think as many men as we did women, maybe even more.

45:00

And then from my own personal bias, Sarah, we leaned into cops.

45:05

We leaned into the military.

45:08

I mean, how many shows did you?

45:10

And I do looking at organizations who were wrestling with PTSD and finding alternative ways to move that needle.

45:19

I'm damn proud of that.

45:21

And I'm honestly more proud with every passing month.

45:25

When I look back on that, what was your moment?

45:29

If there's one honoree for you?

45:31

And I know that's a stupid question because just this morning, somebody hit me with the old, what was your dirtiest job?

45:37

Mike? I've got a satellite media tour this morning because as you may have heard the, is coming back on the 2nd of January Jadah clock, This

45:47

January, January 20, 22, It's

45:50

coming right now. Just a couple of weeks.

45:52

Yeah. It's back, man. It's a bloodbath.

45:55

People have been starving For it.

45:57

I think so. I think that's it.

46:00

Yeah. What the country needs is more of me.

46:02

I

46:02

don't

46:02

want

46:02

to

46:02

say

46:02

you're

46:02

a

46:06

hero. Mine. I am at a loss for another word.

46:09

I'm right with you, Chuck. I'm at a loss.

46:13

Exactly. So who is it?

46:15

The person who I feel like, so I can't say Luke, cause that was very clear.

46:19

That was my first thing. Right? That's the thing that works for me wide open.

46:22

And I was like, and it, and I kept questioning, is this really as wonderful as it seems.

46:26

And it was every single time I had the ability Chuck, to be able to like use my super power of, of warmth and genuine curiosity for people to actually connect them with money.

46:36

Right. I was like, I gotta put my head down. I got a double down and I gotta work my ass off.

46:40

It's not about me. It's for like, I have an opportunity to do something bigger golf course melts my heart.

46:46

Bill doesn't melts.

46:48

My heart. Bill Denson was one of the few phone calls I took when I got married in Israel.

46:52

Chuck in 2019, right for the world shifted and bill Dunson was one of the only phone calls I took from abroad for him, wishing me off telling me I'll build Danson on paper.

47:06

We're all like, what the hell is this?

47:08

A golf course like defending the right to have golf courses is great.

47:13

But when you're putting it against the opioid crisis and foster care and homelessness, you needed to do a little more digging and you needed to be convinced more.

47:22

And this man became emblematic for me as this really understanding what kind of impact you have on your community with just community care in general, like truly a do gooder Just

47:37

to help the listener out, please. He was 89 at the time, I think maybe.

47:41

And he lived on a mountain in the back of beyond what town was it?

47:45

Sarah? It was right outside of Spokane, Washington.

47:49

Yeah. He lost his brother.

47:50

Not too long before we met him.

47:54

And those two were just thicker than thieves.

47:56

They lived together and they built this municipal golf course together on their property, which they opened for free to anybody who wanted to golf and they maintained it.

48:06

They cut all the grass. They took care of the greens.

48:08

They did everything and they did it all for whatever donations you could leave behind.

48:12

And I remember when they pitched it to me, I was like, this sounds perfect.

48:16

And to your point, they were like, yeah, but it's not like he's curing cancer.

48:20

I'm like, no one's curing cancer.

48:23

What he's doing, he's making every day a little bit better for the people who share his geography.

48:30

And so that's awesome.

48:32

Let's go meet the old guy and man you're right.

48:36

That day was genuinely fun from sunup to sundown.

48:41

From the moment we landed and I scooped you up out of the minivan and I hopped in my golf cart and we rattled down the hill, this man, he's just, he's someone who makes you believe if you forget, he really is.

48:55

This just pure hearted, giggly, goofy.

48:59

He's human.

49:01

He'll tell a dirty joke.

49:03

He'll be playful. He's just warmth.

49:05

He's the best of us.

49:07

That to me becomes one of the more powerful episodes because it's so deeply accessible and it reminds you that all we need are people to come alive and whatever makes them feel alive.

49:20

And that's the stuff we need. We don't need you to go out there.

49:23

Like I don't have the skin to be in the foster care community.

49:26

I wish. And I salute them.

49:28

I don't have the skin.

49:30

Right. I don't have the skill set for awhile by our fighter.

49:33

I don't have the courage, but I do have warmth and I can love on my neighbor and I can be generous when the opportunity presents itself.

49:41

And that's the stuff we need from people, right?

49:46

You know, It's the danger in swinging for the fences all of the time as a producer, you want the hero you want the big story you want.

49:55

The home run. What you really want to do is build a hit show.

49:58

And the way to build a hit show is with singles and doubles.

50:01

Just keep putting runs on the board.

50:05

And bill Dunson was just a solid right down the middle.

50:10

It was, I mean, that's a great point.

50:11

We featured some people who go so far and beyond who are so altruistic, who are so completely given over to their cause that it's a little unrelatable.

50:24

The average person looks at that and goes, I never dedicate my whole life to that, but anybody could do would build it and to be 89 and to be so present, he touched a lot of people.

50:37

And then remember he did something else.

50:40

Pretty extraordinary, something that makes a show like this matter in ways that we often don't think about, but he died.

50:48

Our friend bill died and he died not long after we profiled him and the letters I got from fans, the letters I got from his family, from people who knew him, who were just Mike, thank you.

51:04

Thank you for shining a light on our friend.

51:08

This will happen unfortunately to you more and more as you work in television and you get older and older, there's a guy who we feature in this episode, this run of dirty jobs coming up, who died a month after we filmed him.

51:25

No one's met him yet.

51:27

And people are going to love him.

51:29

And then I'm going to hop on after the show and explain what happened.

51:34

And so if you're going to do a show, that's real.

51:38

If you're going to do a show about life, then you're also ultimately going to do a show about saying goodbye to If

51:49

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53:02

And I'll tell you, man, if we're going to talk about reality, my very first trip to Dutch Harbor on deadliest catch, I went to six funerals.

53:10

There have been probably 15 people who have been featured on dirty jobs over the years who have died.

53:16

And when bill died on returning the favor, I'll tell you I was sad obviously, but I was also just reminded of the incredible reality of the form in which we're working.

53:31

Right? Right. And there's nothing.

53:33

I mean, there's no greater muse than mortality.

53:37

Nothing. There's nothing that drives you harder than mortality.

53:40

In that way.

53:42

I think that I would venture to say cautiously, these last few years have been a gift.

53:46

Even if it's been a painful one at times, it really wakes you back up and the spirit gets amplified after it's left the body too.

53:56

There's this way of feeling like you want to honor someone who's made an impact on you.

54:00

I feel like I feel so motivated to continue when I know that person's not doing the legwork, right?

54:06

It's like being part of a school project where you've been kind of slacking and then your all a student gets sick and you have to rally somewhere along there.

54:13

That's a good metaphor. It's a show made me feel just we weren't alone.

54:17

Separation is a myth we're so connected.

54:20

We walk around in different bags of skin and different experiences.

54:24

And we have different narrative arcs and different resources when you tap into that core part of people that so deeply human and the messiness of it and the slippery playfulness of life that it can be as that's the stuff that made everything melt away.

54:38

That RTF, I really feel like narrowed down on.

54:41

And I would say you protected that you made, because we came from a world where I was working a lot of jobs, the UN prior to this, like I hadn't worked on the same kind of shows with the shows that I had worked on.

54:52

You didn't have another option. You almost didn't question it right there.

54:55

Wasn't a pushback. This is just, we get the sloppy, weird model.

54:58

We have to plug it in. This is the way it is.

55:00

Keep moving robotically.

55:02

And you really rewired my brain in that way.

55:07

And the show then continued to reinforce that as a truth and a possibility.

55:11

So this full circle, I'm more in RTF and I'm so fueled to continue the work in the world.

55:19

Like I just feel so inspired by that.

55:22

Good, Good. I'm glad you do.

55:24

I think at this point, you're definitely too young to be bitter and broken, but you're maybe too young to, I don't know.

55:30

The thing about the moments you're talking about is that you can't really appreciate them until some time goes by.

55:38

Like I knew that bill was super special when I met him because he reminded me of my grandad and my grandad is the reason dirty jobs went on the air in the first place.

55:47

And my personal feeling about the way we've become disconnected from the elderly in our country is well, it's personal.

55:58

And it makes me angry.

55:59

And it makes me, I feature a lot of old people on the shows that I, that I work on it whenever I can.

56:06

You still don't know, you have to shoot it and then you have to leave.

56:11

And then somebody else has to take it and they have to edit it.

56:14

And then it has to sit and then it airs.

56:17

And then you still don't get to decide the viewers, get to decide you just put it out there.

56:22

You make the best guess you can.

56:24

I felt pretty sure that people were going to love bill and they did.

56:28

I've been wrong before too.

56:30

I've bet heavily. It's humbling.

56:32

Sarah, you just don't know right now I've got a ridiculous song on the charts called SANAS has got a dirty job right now.

56:41

That thing turned into a thing last week.

56:44

It was the most downloaded song in the world.

56:45

I did, I was half in the bag when I did it with the guy I just met and we just did it as a fundraiser.

56:51

And it turned into this giant thing that Mike

56:55

Rowe sentence and experience I've ever heard in my life.

56:58

What you just said, that entire experience from top to bottom.

57:02

Yeah. I mean, if it's not that I'm going to marry up flicking around and I see Sarah walking through a field of flowers and I'm like going, what, how much weirder can my life?

57:09

But the point is, I've got treatments around here that I written years ago and I've got pitches for all kinds of ideas that I really think are good and I've worked on them and I I've done everything I can to make them work and they don't work.

57:22

The stuff that works is the stuff that I don't know.

57:25

You just never know which piece of mud is going to stick.

57:28

I think the point I was trying to get toward was I can't believe you brought up bill.

57:33

That was going to be my answer. But what about mama with Abigail?

57:38

My Harper, My Harper for crying out loud, Abigail she's from the stand I'm conflating fiction with non-fiction my heart, My

57:48

heartburn. I still talk with my Harper.

57:50

I haven't talked to they're probably in on now.

57:53

It's like probably seven months.

57:54

She is kicking and striving.

57:57

Mo Harper is a delicious human being ma Harper Rand a oh, I can't remember the name of it.

58:03

It's in, I'm stuck on delicious.

58:05

I don't know that you can describe humans as delicious Sarah.

58:09

Especially once we run a kitchen.

58:12

Yeah.

58:13

We're switching positions. I've been spending too much time on that with the Dahmer family.

58:17

Maybe over the last few seasons.

58:22

I see That's

58:26

the next hit mall. Harper is a woman who understood how to give love and really was relentless with not, she didn't give up on souls.

58:37

She ran a kitchen and it was employed almost, I think exclusively by ex cons.

58:43

She hired ex cons to do everything, to cook, to wait.

58:49

And she was like maybe 140 years old.

58:53

Surely my Harper's San

58:57

Antonio, Texas.

58:58

She ran a tight ship.

59:00

She was sweet.

59:01

She was ancient.

59:03

We gave her some money and threw her a little surprise party.

59:06

At the end. I was touched by that when too, because the enthusiasm and the gratitude of her own family and the people who came out there, it was one other, one of my favorites because it was small and big at the same time it was micro and macro.

59:21

That's a good one that was mine as well. Part of my job was to sort of get boomeranged out into this community.

59:27

And I had to sort of go build relationships and build trust with the community.

59:31

So I sat in a lot of church pews and diners and living rooms, which, you know, I feast it off of.

59:36

I love that. I love that anthropology major with ma Harper's kitchen.

59:40

I went in there and I was immediately dancing some sort of local dance they were doing in her kitchen.

59:46

We were just dancing around there for so long.

59:48

And this woman is tiny. She's a Polly pocket of a human being truly.

59:52

And she's just booming with life and vibrancy.

59:56

And she immediately feels like everyone's grandmother, but just that special kind of love that you can't get from.

1:00:03

And she just never gave up on her soul.

1:00:05

She's had about 900 strokes.

1:00:07

I don't know if any of her organs are the organ she was born with.

1:00:11

No, like this woman is resilient and she just kept her kitchen open.

1:00:15

I mean, it was not a for-profit business at the end of the day.

1:00:18

Even if it was functioning as that, if you needed a hot meal, you came to my Harper.

1:00:22

If the world felt cold and lonely, you came to my Harper.

1:00:26

She'd give you tough love. She'd give you a meal, but more than a meal, she'd give you a job, right?

1:00:30

You don't want to be fed. You want to work. You want a job.

1:00:33

She was incredible. You just felt so at home with her guys, my computer's dying.

1:00:38

When more, Computer's

1:00:39

dying. Classic. Of course, she's a producer.

1:00:43

She's been operating with a computer. That's not plugged in this whole time.

1:00:47

She's very enthusiastic and very pretty, but she's not that bright.

1:00:51

I got to tell you my favorite.

1:00:53

Like it just hit me really hard.

1:00:55

I remember really getting emotional with it was operations like saver.

1:00:59

I'll tell you what got me more than anything was not necessarily the story of the individuals.

1:01:06

Like you're talking to guys who are missing limbs and stuff like that.

1:01:08

But what got me was that all the cops showed up.

1:01:13

The firemen showed up, the bikers showed up, like the whole community came out to surprise this guy.

1:01:22

And I was like, wow, this guy, that's a, it's a wonderful life moment.

1:01:26

You see all those people were affected.

1:01:29

That was every ending episode of RTF, all of the people in the community.

1:01:34

But that one got me really.

1:01:37

I think I cried every single save for like one or two, depending on how challenging the episode had been just with the battling of the elements.

1:01:46

I'm just thinking of broth areas, finale.

1:01:49

There weren't as many tears had that eye, the sweat glands had emptied all of the water in my body.

1:01:55

At that point, the show became addictive.

1:01:57

You were running for that feeling of this is real life and you're having it.

1:02:04

This is a wonderful life moment all the time, but it's real life.

1:02:07

The people coming together, rallying behind this person, that was the most moving part of every episode.

1:02:12

For me, It was also the thing that I worried the most about as we got into the second and third season, because the act of observing a thing, changes a thing, the uncertainty principle Heisenberg and so forth that is true in TV, on steroids.

1:02:29

When people know they're on TV and they've seen a show, this started to happen with 30 jobs early on, and I've found a way to fix it where people would start to perform because there was some sort of expectation.

1:02:40

This show is especially difficult because it was a surprise.

1:02:44

And so the first season, Chuck, part of the reason that episode with Jason Zimmerman got you.

1:02:51

Part of the reason operation bike saver worked so well is that Jason and his wife thought I was there to do like a dirty job.

1:03:00

They were like, why is the dirty job guy here?

1:03:02

This is so cool. You know? Cause they knew me from that.

1:03:05

And so the possibility that there were going to come around the corner and see the entire community waiting for them with $80,000 worth of new parts and equipment and tools and painted structure and all this stuff, it was inconceivable that it would happen.

1:03:25

And that I thought was pretty great.

1:03:27

And then season two comes along and I'm like, okay.

1:03:30

So that episode was viewed over 50 million times.

1:03:34

So now we got to do it again and now people are going to be like, oh, it's you?

1:03:38

Oh my God. I'm going to get pres and what's it going to be?

1:03:42

And I'm like, okay, so you probably don't know this.

1:03:45

I just went. And I said, look, we had a good run, but we only have two columns here, kill the show or replace the host.

1:03:52

I was ready to step aside.

1:03:54

I said, it's a Facebook.

1:03:56

And I said it to Michael. I said, look, I'll step aside.

1:03:59

I think you have a good thing going here, but how are you going to surprise people if they know I'm there?

1:04:06

And so I really struggled with how to do that.

1:04:10

And then for awhile it was like, well, you're the surprise, Mike.

1:04:14

So they'll know when you show up that something good is going to happen.

1:04:17

They just don't know what it is.

1:04:18

And I thought, well, I guess it's Christmas morning.

1:04:21

You know, you're going to get something.

1:04:22

You just don't know what we settled into that.

1:04:26

And then it, You

1:04:28

really maintained the integrity belts on the whole show.

1:04:31

In that way. It's a good motivator to get fundraising outside fundraising.

1:04:34

And we wanted a project that was bigger than maybe what we were given by the network to give, you know, on the show being seen, being philanthropic tends to motivate people to want to double down and get on stage.

1:04:46

That's fine. That's great. We use that in our favor and everyone won.

1:04:51

It was a thing. I mean the amount of fake production companies, the amount of pseudonyms we responded to, we were filming a high level operation trying to get my again.

1:05:02

And there were some people that were just, we would love when it was someone who had been living under a rock and didn't know, or just had never seen Mike before.

1:05:10

Those are few and far between, but we would love that because it was just this very rare moment where we could really, we had a little more time.

1:05:19

Cause they always figured it out.

1:05:20

We have probably like a half hour window before they really started to be like, well, wait a second.

1:05:25

That voice, that face something You

1:05:28

want to hear, what's really screwed up. Sarah.

1:05:29

I haven't admitted this before.

1:05:31

And by the way, the integrity belt, that's very funny, like a chastity belt.

1:05:36

Only with honor, I went from saying, look, I'm going to step away from this thing because people know me and I don't want to wreck it to exactly what you described coming across people in season three and four who didn't know me and walking away and saying to myself, the hell's the matter with these people?

1:05:55

How did they not know who I am?

1:05:56

Do not know me, do Not own a television.

1:06:03

You know what, no money for, you know, a surprise for you.

1:06:09

Maybe next time you'll pay a little more attention.

1:06:12

Not

1:06:12

know

1:06:12

who

1:06:12

I

1:06:15

am. It's just so strange being in TV, making TV, trying hard to get out of your own way.

1:06:22

That's really the thing.

1:06:23

So many of our conversations, both on and off camera have been about.

1:06:28

Can we get out of our own way with this?

1:06:29

How can we just let the show be the thing we want it to be?

1:06:33

It's like the Hippocratic oath for producers.

1:06:35

Don't bitch it up job one.

1:06:40

And somehow there's a lot of beautiful comradery that comes from when you have a healthy set and everyone's operating with a culture of collaboration and we are really working for something bigger.

1:06:50

And, and I swore an oath years ago that I really couldn't compartmentalize.

1:06:53

It's not a balanced lifestyle production.

1:06:56

And that world, you really are fully in it.

1:06:59

It's 15, 18 hour days.

1:07:01

You're traveling all the time.

1:07:02

You don't have standard dynamics in your life.

1:07:05

You're really choosing to give your life to this thing I made the oath.

1:07:09

I'd say probably four years before RTF did not do anything that wasn't uplifting or didn't really, I can't sell something.

1:07:15

I don't believe in. It's not worth my time.

1:07:18

My energy isn't served well, but this show was so much more than a show.

1:07:23

It's a movement that I think is still deeply.

1:07:26

It's bubbling.

1:07:27

It's there. It's dormant and it's waiting.

1:07:30

It's active, but these people are going to keep going because that was how we chose people.

1:07:34

Chuck too, would these people continue to be doing this?

1:07:37

If a camera was not in their face, would they be doing that off camera?

1:07:40

I would say every one we featured 99.9% of it.

1:07:45

They're still operating. They were operating the day we left.

1:07:48

They were operating the day before we arrived.

1:07:49

That's the critical component that makes it so much more than a show.

1:07:54

The camera makes people very strange.

1:07:57

The camera can be a crazy maker.

1:07:59

It really pulls out some wild parts of people and it can amplify some of the darker points of people as well.

1:08:05

But this show, which is the amount of background checks we would do that fortunately then were pushed beyond our standard background check to say, is this person really living a life now?

1:08:14

Right now, we love a seedy past.

1:08:16

It's a process, but not a CD present.

1:08:20

Indeed. I keep badgering. This point, I am deeply inspired and energized and exhilarated by the future.

1:08:27

That's now been sort of carved by RTF.

1:08:30

We have way too many numbers for this to be something that doesn't move the needle.

1:08:34

If it gets repackaged or pitched differently or something, Look,

1:08:41

I mean, that's part of the reason I wanted to have you on.

1:08:42

Believe it or not a fair amount of people listen to this thing.

1:08:44

And some of them work in the business.

1:08:46

It doesn't have to be Facebook.

1:08:47

It doesn't have to be called returning the favor.

1:08:49

Netflix could green-light pay it forward.

1:08:52

We could pick up right where we left off.

1:08:54

Do you remember? Yeah, I think his name was Barney.

1:08:56

I think it might've been maybe the first thing we did after the lockdowns food pantry.

1:09:03

Barney's food pantry.

1:09:04

That

1:09:04

was

1:09:04

an

1:09:04

important

1:09:04

one

1:09:04

too,

1:09:04

because

1:09:04

it

1:09:04

was

1:09:04

just

1:09:04

so

1:09:04

great

1:09:04

to

1:09:04

see

1:09:04

you

1:09:10

again. It was so great to be out in the world and actually shooting something when nobody else was it's worth remembering too.

1:09:16

We did what 18 of these things in this exact setup, me sitting right where I'm sitting now, you guys out in the world trying to pull the returning favors long distance.

1:09:26

Are you kidding those things?

1:09:29

I'm sure I'm not supposed to say this, but those things got better numbers than the show itself.

1:09:34

Cause everybody was stuck at home.

1:09:38

We can call some people make some way.

1:09:39

Have you ever read Rebecca Soltan?

1:09:42

Third, last name is Sultan.

1:09:45

I'm butchering her name. She has a book called a paradise built in hell.

1:09:48

And it talks about these utopian instincts that we have in devastation.

1:09:52

And the devastation can be anything from a shared calamity.

1:09:56

Like someone has a house fire.

1:09:57

It brings out, you know, to something larger that we all experienced and, and pre COVID.

1:10:02

I did a lot of like my master's study on this of just how do we bring out that more utopian, philanthropic nature in people outside of a catastrophe, but RTF, the people on RTF is how right?

1:10:16

Just spending more time with these people to remember that you can make a difference in the smaller ways.

1:10:21

That's why I did love these stories like bill Dunson and Mo Harper and things like that.

1:10:26

Those tended to be the ones that really stuck to me even more just because they were so accessible.

1:10:31

They left me out of excuses too.

1:10:34

I ran out of Well. They're modest.

1:10:35

It's modesty.

1:10:36

That's all there is to it. If there was any ongoing debate between me and production, it always had to do with modesty because the size of the reveal was often bigger, was better, bigger.

1:10:49

The reveal, the better it is. So let's get a football field.

1:10:52

Let's fill the stadium, let's do it from the moon.

1:10:54

It'll never stop. And it's like, no, it's actually not that.

1:10:57

And it's the same point. You're talking about a paradise built in hell.

1:11:01

When you wait for the calamity to call the Cajun Navy.

1:11:05

But the truth is somebody doing some Cajun Navy stuff right now, right down the street.

1:11:11

Somebody somewhere in your neighborhood is doing a thing that is actually noble, where they're going to memorialize that right?

1:11:21

Or ignore it. The choice to pay attention to those small acts was the reason I ultimately did returning the favor that combined with the behind the scenes camera.

1:11:30

That was it for me. Anything else that was on somebody else's dime or in somebody else's lane?

1:11:36

My job was to keep it small, try not to get in our own way and see what happened.

1:11:42

We all did our jobs actually.

1:11:45

And you said something to me once in one of those SUV's I think you were a driving, which would explain why my sphincter was slammed, shut so tight.

1:11:53

Sara's many things.

1:11:55

Chuck driving his drivers, not one of them to be fair.

1:12:00

She had a lot going on, right?

1:12:02

She's thinking of a lot of things.

1:12:04

She's producing a show, she's driving an SUV.

1:12:08

She's trying to get us to the proper location, but she's also on camera.

1:12:13

We have three, four cameras in the SUV.

1:12:15

So she's on camera.

1:12:17

She's navigating.

1:12:18

She tried to have a conversation with me.

1:12:20

Try not to get in our own way, try to do all these things, but she's also driving and it's terrifying.

1:12:26

It's just straight up terrifying.

1:12:27

I think we were in Snoqualmie up there at these remember Shayla's

1:12:36

lodge, Shailesh

1:12:39

lodge or the sailing.

1:12:43

Terrific. And we very nearly got cut in half by an 18 Wheeler, but we lived, I forget exactly what I said.

1:12:50

And Sarah got weirdly serious for a minute.

1:12:52

I think you were quoting somebody, but you said, look, my job is to make sure no one is ever humiliated in my presence, Frankl.

1:13:02

Okay. And I thought what a great sentiment, what a great thing to bring into TV, especially in the world of reality where people's discomfort at people's pain, people's humiliation is the stuff of hits returning.

1:13:19

The favor was the opposite of that.

1:13:20

You are the opposite of that.

1:13:23

And here with another Christmas around the corner, I've thought one of my favorite Jewish friends could come on to spread a little sunshine as you're they're hunkered down in your bunker with six to nine Jews working away on plumbing and drilling.

1:13:37

It's your computer quietly loses its power original Last

1:13:43

Remaining carpenter. We joke, but that's probably a good place to start to land the plane.

1:13:47

When you think about Luke Mickelson on Mormon, maybe with the funny underwear for all I know.

1:13:54

And I think about you yes.

1:13:56

In Heidi with her integrity belt, nevermind the chastity.

1:13:59

I think we're what four or five kids.

1:14:01

I'm pretty sure I know how, which way the wind's blowing over there.

1:14:04

It was an incredibly diverse cast.

1:14:07

It was a really accurate cross-section of our country with people of various backgrounds and religions and identities, all with really one thing in common, trying to make their little slice of their zip code, a better place to be.

1:14:23

It was a good thing. We did miss y'all grow a good thing.

1:14:28

I shouldn't say get back out there. I have faith.

1:14:29

This isn't the end in some capacity.

1:14:31

Just we've seen too much.

1:14:34

I'm not itching. I'm actually chafing, which I believe is even worse.

1:14:38

It starts with an itch Chuck.

1:14:41

And then the next thing you know, you're chafing and then you're ordering the blue star ointment off the infomercial.

1:14:46

Oh, he knows You're

1:14:49

using, You know, a ruler or a golf club that scratches that back.

1:14:53

Have you seen the blue star?

1:14:56

Sarah? What are you working on now Right

1:14:58

now? So I'm actually building my own little venture.

1:15:01

That's operating on kind of a five-year plan.

1:15:04

That's really the thing I've determined for anything that's real.

1:15:08

It's that fun. You can make a plan and then God laughs and shakes it up.

1:15:12

So my long-term plan.

1:15:13

So I'm building a production company that I've had for years, but I'm shifting it over to something called common ground studios, which I want to just be a part of creating and launching any kind of uplifting, amplifying of character stories that make people feel inspired and think, and mainly giving people the tools and the skills and the inspiration to reignite their own agency, to not wait around for something else, to make a change in their world in any capacity to make a change in their lives, make a change in their communities.

1:15:46

And so I'm starting a podcast that I would love to have you on Mike and Chuck come along for this.

1:15:52

You guys together. It's just going to be helping people to believe in the possibility of a better future and exposing them to the voices and the people who are already making that happen.

1:16:03

Right? Cause we need to see to believe How

1:16:05

are you going to make it non Ernest?

1:16:07

How are you going to make it not so sickeningly sweet that my teeth are going to start hurting again.

1:16:13

Exactly. This is my Achilles heel.

1:16:15

I want to make it feel the tone of the show is it's always a Trojan horse.

1:16:21

Cause those are the horses that get through the gate.

1:16:23

Right? And so this is going to be wrapped up in, it's going to be playful and goofy and it'll be self-deprecating, it'll be entertaining.

1:16:30

And then within it, you're going to walk her in, Excuse

1:16:35

me. But you know what happens after the Trojan horse gets through the gates.

1:16:40

Right. Okay. Sorry. So the horses go To

1:16:43

the rest of the story. You understand men crawl out of the belly of the horse and murder and rape everyone in the walls, everyone.

1:16:51

So that's where I intercept. I take these men.

1:16:53

I doubt some in sunshine or twist off their skulls.

1:16:57

I put in someone with a beating heart.

1:17:00

They come in there and you end up feeling like, well, shit, I'm motivated to do something nice today because I already have it in me.

1:17:08

It's really a fan to fan people, sort of dormant resilience and optimism because optimism is a, it's a strategic way to live your living better for you to hope and feel like you have the power to actually make an impact, right?

1:17:22

It's not a naive choice. I would argue.

1:17:23

It's a leadership qualities in your own self, right?

1:17:27

To be able to, to say, I have no idea how it's going to turn out, but if I have a binary choice, good or bad, I'm going to go towards the good.

1:17:35

And I'm going to keep my eyes on the possibility.

1:17:36

And because I would say that our show, what made me feel like this really is more than just a moment in time.

1:17:44

It's that it ignited something we all know, right?

1:17:48

Whatever faith you are, whatever organizations you're a part of.

1:17:51

When you tap into the power of service and you tap into really how good that feels for you, how unbelievably good it feels.

1:18:00

It's not a selfless act. It's a selfish act in a beautiful way, right?

1:18:04

It feels so damn good to feel like you can make a difference and to just even, you know, sharing generosity of your spirit, whatever it is.

1:18:12

But I was shocked over this year to realize how many people just felt so powerless in that and really kind of delegated their powering, gave it away.

1:18:22

And we're waiting on either the government or larger industry or something to make a change in their lives.

1:18:28

And to after all of these people that we've talked with and know intimately on RTF, I realized that one thing that they all have is they have a resilient optimism to get stuff done.

1:18:38

They believe that they can make it happen.

1:18:40

Well, why are we accepting something like this?

1:18:43

What are the things we can do versus just lamenting and stirring up all that toxin inside.

1:18:49

So You're an optimism activist.

1:18:52

I am an optimism Activist.

1:18:55

I actually Actually

1:18:57

own that trademark from four years.

1:19:01

Shut up. Really?

1:19:02

I just infringed on your IP with a compliment It's

1:19:08

my lawyer will be contacting, You

1:19:12

know, good luck with that.

1:19:15

I, a joy that I would surrender before, I would Not

1:19:20

want to mess with the Irish hammer And I love your lawyer.

1:19:23

So that's another conflicting quality, but that's going to come into that dynamic.

1:19:27

We wouldn't be having this conversation if it weren't for her.

1:19:29

Because again, it was her suggestion that got the BTS camera on the set.

1:19:33

It was that camera that got me on the set.

1:19:36

And here we sit the itch, the chafe.

1:19:40

That's the thing I want to leave you with.

1:19:42

That's the way to take the piss out of this.

1:19:45

That's the way to keep a feel good show from turning into a lecture or a polemic or something that hurts your teeth.

1:19:53

Just remember that sooner or later, something's going to itch probably in an uncomfortable place, a private place, and you're going to have to scratch it.

1:20:03

And you're probably going to get caught scratching.

1:20:05

It just, you farted in the SUV that with me, it's going to happen.

1:20:10

And one day the itching is going to go to chafing and then you're going to come back and you're going to say, tell me more about the blue star ointment.

1:20:16

I think that's a good place to leave.

1:20:18

This that's really what the world needs is ointment.

1:20:21

We need blues.

1:20:22

Do you know what this is?

1:20:24

Sarah Chuck, get her for Christmas.

1:20:29

Get my Jewish friend for Christmas, a tin of blue star ointment.

1:20:33

In fact, when we're done Google it, you can probably find an old ad for it, but it literally, it's a cream.

1:20:38

You rubbed on the parts of your body that might be itching or chafing, but it's also good for things like psoriasis, ringworm.

1:20:47

There's a long list of things that they have on the commercial.

1:20:51

But the one that really stuck with me over the years was Tedder Tedder, T E T E R.

1:20:58

What is this? I'm still not sure.

1:21:01

It's not good. It's not something you want.

1:21:03

It's a skin condition.

1:21:05

It could be a form of ringworm, but it's just one of the many things that blue star ointment, who is not a sponsor of this podcast, by the way, maybe they should make a note.

1:21:16

I want you to do. I want you to reach out to blue star ointment.

1:21:19

I got a sponsorship deal and then get Sarah some of the products because the itching, the chafing, the ringworm and the Tedder, Google Tedder, Chuck right now, while we're talking, I want to understand what it is.

1:21:32

Cause I literally saw the ad for this last night and it says it cured Tedder, which I think can happen.

1:21:40

I think three or forties.

1:21:43

Yeah. It's three tees altogether. A skin disease in humans or animals causing itching or pustular patches such as eczema.

1:21:52

It is. I would also argue there's no more appropriate present to give to your Jewish friends than a tin called blue star.

1:21:59

I think that maybe we may have invented that.

1:22:04

Yes, look, typically, as Chuck has seen this happen now countless times I talked to my guests until somehow we Forrest Gump our way into a place where it all comes back together.

1:22:15

And sometimes it takes a long time, Sarah, but here I think we did it.

1:22:19

This episode is really about the idea that returning the favor was the blue star ointment that our country needed at the time.

1:22:29

And right now, when I look around this great land, I see a Ching.

1:22:32

I see chafing. I see ringworm and I see Tedder, but I also see my friend, Sarah armed with blue star ointment running out there among the great unwashed smearing, this miracle cream all over their Pasteur walls and making life a little better.

1:22:50

That's the feel good stuff that I want to leave the listeners of this podcast with you armed with blue star ointment and a house with six to nine years.

1:23:02

Yeah. Any Given moment?

1:23:06

Oh, that's beautiful. Anything else you want to plug before we go out there and go crazy with the blue?

1:23:10

Yeah, no that did look out for possible.

1:23:12

Future podcast.

1:23:13

We'll get our friend Mike on this and our front truck.

1:23:17

Just Chuck, just come with everything and keep looking out and pitch us some shows.

1:23:21

We're hungry. We're chafing. We're we're tethered up and we want to go.

1:23:27

Okay. All right. I don't think, I don't think you're using that word the way it's supposed to be actually tethered up.

1:23:35

If people want to follow you or reach out to you with something, Why

1:23:40

wouldn't they? I mean, aside from the eczema, the seven Maria, the ringworm, the psoriasis, she's really lovely.

1:23:47

She's a lovely person, fairly contagious, Contagiously

1:23:52

optimistic. You can find me on social media.

1:23:54

You can find me at Sarah, your brow, Y O U R G R a U Sarah, with an H.

1:24:02

And then you can write to me on Sarah, your grow.com.

1:24:05

And I love getting the emails on there.

1:24:08

She really does do creepier.

1:24:10

The better guys. She really enjoys the creepy ones.

1:24:15

I have a great special folder for those I'm

1:24:21

here with blue star, This

1:24:25

a protective seal. We're all sort of stumbling back into the waking life.

1:24:29

We're going to need more tools and more support than ever, and more things to hold onto and more mirrors of our better possibilities and our better nature.

1:24:37

Speaking of tools, one quick pro tip, just to leave you with, as you embark upon this whole podcast thing, get a microphone that works.

1:24:47

You can expect far better. Audio quality.

1:24:49

The miss you can expect There's

1:24:52

only one way to go, huh? There's only one way to go.

1:24:55

Yeah. Yeah. Start with a mic that works after that.

1:24:57

All

1:24:57

right,

1:25:00

sweetie. I love you. Thank you for making time.

1:25:03

This was really for the fans of returning the favor.

1:25:06

I know they're still out there. Hope Springs eternal, especially when you're chatting with the copy written owner of the optimism activist.

1:25:16

So something to keep in mind, if you don't want to get sued and you might want to lay off that turn of phrase.

1:25:21

Thank you, Charlie.

1:25:22

Thank you Sarah.

1:25:25

Bye guys. Great bye.

1:25:27

Hello friends, and welcome to the way I heard it. This is episode number two hundred and thirty, and it's called it's not the itching. It's the chafing. My guest today is one of my very favorite TV producers of all time. And one of my favorite humans too, her name is Sarah Yourgrau. And she is quite possibly the most positive upbeat optimistic glass half full kind of gal to ever work in television. Sarah is so sweet that she makes my teeth hurt sometimes, but I love her anyway because her relentless unwavering brand of optimism is not an act. Sarah truly loves her fellow man and is dedicated. To making our world a better place by working on TV shows that highlight the best of our species. We spent a few years together, Sarah and me, working together on one such show, the Emmy Award winning program called Returning The Favor. For those of you who don't know, returning the favor was a Facebook show that celebrated people who did nice things to make their communities a better place. We celebrated these people by well, by lying to them. By making them think we were making a documentary getting to know them and then surprising them with an elaborate gift at the end of each episode. It was a feel good show. Like dirty jobs, RTF was programmed by the viewers. We had a large, super engaged audience. And I figured I'd be hosting it for the next five or ten years because, honestly, I've never worked on a show that was more Apropos to a divided country. Than returning the favor. We went on the air shortly after the election in twenty sixteen, which as you might recall was somewhat contentious. And I think we did a really good job of proving that people on both sides of the aisle were still capable of kindness and decency, but then to the surprise of Sarah and me and everybody else involved, including roughly two million loyal fans Facebook canceled returning the favor after a hundred episodes. So full disclosure of the conversation you're about to hear might sound a little indulgent, worse, it might even sound in parts like we're pissed off about face books decision to cancel our show at the height of its popularity. For the record, we're not we're not angry. We're still little confused, but Here's the thing. Not a day goes by that somebody doesn't ask me why returning the favor was canceled and whether or not it's ever coming back. And the short answers are, I don't know, and I don't know. But I do think the fans of the show might like to listen in on a candid conversation between Sarah and me, since truth be told Sarah was in many ways more connected to returning the favor than I was. And because, really, who among us today couldn't use a blast of unbridled sunshine called Sarajor Grow. With that said, this is episode number two hundred and thirty. It's not the itching. It's the chafing. This holiday season. A lot of people are going to be doing something they haven't done in quite a a lot of people are going to be doing something they haven't done in quite a while. They're going to be spending time with family and that's going to be spending time with family. And that's great. Families are great, but hanging out with family, especially on the holidays can also be, oh, what's the Families are great, but hanging out with family especially on the holidays can also be Oh, what's the word? Exhausting. After long days filled with family, friends and fun that you might want to consider winding down a bit with After long days filled with family friends and fun, you might want to consider winding down a bit. With calm. Calm is the number one mental wellness Calm is the number one mental wellness app. With calm. You can clear your head with guided daily you can clear your head with guided daily meditations. You can improve your focus with columns, curated music tracks, and you can drift off to dreamland with columns, imaginative sleep can improve your focus with Calm's curated music tracks, and you can drift off to Dreamland with Calm's imaginative sleep stories. If you go to com dot com slash mic, you'll find hundreds of hours of programming and new content is added every week. That's why over one hundred million people around the world are using Calm to take care of their minds. For listeners of this show, Calm is off bring a special limited time promotion of forty percent off a calm premium subscription at calm dot com. Slash mic. Go to CALM dot com slash mic for forty percent off unlimited access to comms entire library. That's That's calm dot com slash mic. I can't believe we're gonna start another one of these things by bitching about my producer and the audio, Sarah. But but we're going to. Could you expect anything less than Could you expect anything less than me? I am consistent in my performance. These are just your props for me. Where are you? It looks like you're in a It looks like you're in a bunker. Yeah. I'm in a pretty unfortunate environment at the moment. So I just returned from six weeks traveling, where two weeks prior, I moved into I finally did it. I moved to something I've been wanting to do for years after ten years in New York. And so I'm in this beautiful home that I loved from all the hardwood floors, but from a a listening perspective, it's just awful. And I understand the place is full of Jews. The place is bubbling with Jews. I've just returned from two weeks in Israel. Right? A place that, like, if anyone has family who's Jewish or mainly Israeli, there's the walls are merely a metaphor. right? There's no such thing as a wall or a There's no such thing as a wall or a door. And so now I have that has followed me home. So it's this really sort of cultural LA. Don't stress. How many people are in your house right now? At the moment, six to nine. At any given moment, six to nine. Six to nine and six to nine Jews. It actually never never ends. And I am just, it's an identity crisis under and I am just it's an identity crisis under siege. I can only speak to an extent. If they come up with a whole other vocabulary word, I'm out of the conversation. I'm just out. Like, what, like, what kind of terms are being just thrown around right now? Okay. So I've given them a task because my father-in-law is a plumber. An early, really incredible crap. Fassman with these things. So I'm like, listen, if you're gonna be here, you're gonna work. So so there right now, this man's like, I don't know what they're doing. They're breaking all kinds of building codes, just classic, classic, really. So we have these conversations that, like, him and I I'm very clearly a verbal person. I could talk to wall. I love people. And in the eye, we, like, barely can be in the same room together because we can't speak he has a shame about not speaking English, and I have this sort of exhaustion about my Hebrew level. Right? Because I'm very I can go and order like, you know, juice on the street and I can make everyone think I'm a local, but do not talk to me further than that. So I planned my wedding in Israel as you know, Mike. And there was a whole genre of language I just had never used before. They didn't teach us that in Hebrew school. Right? I didn't know how to say, like, not in the contract. It toughens you up real fast and the literal translations to English are very abrupt. Like -- Mhmm. -- a lot of give me. I was like, I don't like Things like that. They don't have the same sort of padding. Their bowling alleys don't have bumpers on it. Let me just say Let me just say that. Yes. Your people I mean, not to stereotype famously, but you're not really known for gilding the Lily. There is a directness But you, one of the first things I noticed about you was just this annoying and chronic level of kindness and optimism and eagerness to both be understood and to make sure everyone around you is always comfortable You're just so annoyingly nice. I'll never forget the day we met on returning the favor. And by the way, thank you for doing this with me. I haven't really talk to anyone publicly since the show was canceled. Yeah. And part of the reason is because for the life of me. I mean, I don't understand it. It's absolutely one of the most baffling It's absolutely one of the most baffling decisions I've not to overstate it or make it personal, but the most baffling decision I've ever seen in show business. And so here we are, Christmas, your favorite holiday. And I thought Indeed. What's better time to look back and reflect a bit with the most optimistic person I know here on the heels of her nuptials and her great traveling adventure There's so much I wanna talk to you about, but I love the fact that we just kinda stumbled into this thing around travel because I think that might be part of the essence of who you are. Deeply, thank you, Mike. I always feel very seamed by you, even reluctantly you've always seen me. Can't miss you. You're like stepping in a gum. You're everywhere. But it's always your favorite flavor, isn't it? I also felt this really I mean, it's been this huge There was a grieving process right after our ETF because we were in it. We were, the momentum was still rushing and gushing and the people, I mean the messages and the sort of almost desperate calls for action that they were just flooding inboxes with about why is this program We were the momentum was still rushing and gushing. And the people I mean, the messages and the sort of most desperate calls for action, but they were just flooding in boxes with about why is this program gone and this is such a huge part of our lives and it was a movement and I'd say it's taken probably six months to really wrap my head around this identity shift and then also now a real desire to return and continue in this wave in some way. Continue in this work because it's who I am. I would venture to say it's who you are too. No. In your No. No. In the depths of your heart? No. It's not that close. It's not. No. No. Not even close. I'm slightly nicer, I think. Than most people in this industry and may be a little bit kinder than the average sapiens. But next to you, I'm Jeffrey Dahmer. Next to you, I'm a mass murderer. You are a little ray of sunshine and I didn't realize it right away, but returning the favor was it was your show in a weird way. You were the dominant producer. And you warmed your way with so much screen time. I've really never seen anybody just sandbag, a host like that before, the way you just took over that show. You and I on camera had a really great vibe because you are unapologetically and aggressively up optimistic, and I'm older than I've ever been, somewhat bitter, broken. And I think between the two of us, the viewer got pretty honest sense that two people who really liked each other were out in the world to try and find people that you wish you had for neighbors. And that's why Our little show wasn't really a show at all. It was a mission with cameras following a surround. Can you see the Emmy in the background okay there, Sarah, do you see it? Clear as day, Mike. I see it clear as day. Good. Because about two weeks after I got it, that's when they canceled the show. How does that happen? I genuinely have no idea and really won it and didn't like. I felt like we have this deep mission that we had started and we needed to get, like, if anything it has shown us, it is proof of concept that I will be doubling down on in some capacity. Let's use the data, the numbers, the boring terms that gets fixed green-lit sometimes, but it's so much more it's superseded its use the data, the numbers, the boring terms that get thick screenlets sometimes. But It's so much more it superseded its platform. It was beyond it was a movement. It was really a movement. It was speaking beyond a lot of the junk food that people get served to say, no, we actually want and demand something more nourishing. And we want to see our higher selves reflected back in us in an accessible way, not in this weird you know, my favorite part about these last few years has been this really demise, I think, this massive shift in our celebrity culture. right? And this idea of like, these are the gatekeepers for conversation or for impact or this idea of, like, these are the gatekeepers for conversation or for impact act or anything. And I think the power of our show and you and I have talked about this at length, sometimes on camera, sometimes off. The power is that it's the people but it's the everyday people. It's the people who also are grumpy in the morning at times or, you know, mark their almond butter as peanut butter. Or or something. They're not these perfect creatures, but they're people who have once you get a taste of what service can feel like, and once you get a taste of what it feels like, to amplify a cause and a mission bigger than ourselves, there's just no filling that with anything else. Right? It's the best drug in the world. Yes, everything in moderation is where I come from. So I usually draw the line before things lapse too far into that earnest sick thingingly sweet goal that you hold so dear. But for me, this will sound weird to people I'm sure, but I genuinely love finding people I think you should know and introducing the country to them. That I think is my job more so than hosting shows. That's my job. It's your life. It is your whole thing. And so you were different than the other producers on the show, Jacob and Michael and all those guys. Chuck, I don't know how much you knew about their background, but these poor bastards they were working on, you know, real housewives. Real housewives. Real house week after week after week after week. And so it's like the opposite of anything that I would ever watch with respect. And so, to see Michael Rourke, truly, you know, I mean, a TV guy for decades, all of sudden get this show on there. He pulled me aside one day. I think we were at oh, we were over in Richmond, not far from me here giving away. Musical instruments. Music man. Yes. The music man. And he pulled me aside, he said micro. He always called me micro. It's like John Rich couldn't call me Mike. He's like, Mike, bro. Mike family pulled me aside the other day and said that this project is the first time they saw anything that made them proud of me. And this is a man encroaching fifty. At that time. Right? Or no in his 50s. Right? Approaching. He's he waved goodbye to fifty five years ago. To watch the most jaded TV people weep during some of these reveals and just sit down after the show and just talk about what a joy it was to work on it. Honestly, that kind of thing makes my teeth hurt, but I couldn't help but be touched by it. And so we were really lucky, Sarah. We did a hundred episodes of a show that snuck its way into social media and was downloaded over four hundred million times. We had a good run. We had a great run. And to me, that's the deep inspiration of the run can continue. I have such deep hope that this is a transition happening on a larger level for show. I mean, we really changed the game in that in terms of being a show. I think predominantly because of your insistence at the beginning that this needs to be a transparent experience. We need to remove that fourth wall that makes it actually feel accessible versus feeling like, oh, this is smoke mirrors Hollywood. My minds can't make that jump to doing it in my own life because it already feels so separate from you removed that barrier showed all of it showed the sloppiness, showed the grind because Stevie making is a grind, My minds can't make that jump to doing it in my own life because it already feels so separate from. You removed that barrier, showed all of it, showed the and just show the grind because TV Chafing is a grind. Right? This is how it all comes together. But Yeah. I'm just so in fired and revved up. I believe in people. I really believe in people. And once you get a taste to that, there's nothing else that really palatable. You know? So if you take that basic belief that you just described and then kind of filtered through the world we're living in right now, after a year and a half of lockdowns. I wanna get your take because you have been all over the world since I saw you last. I've said from the beginning that people are dealing with this, whether it's Omicron or Delta or Alpha or the lockdowns or the loss of their jobs or whatever. Like the five stages of grief, but everybody's going through the stages at different speeds. To this day, walking around, you can still see it. Right? There is anger. There's denial. There's bargaining. Oh, look. That was just depressed. That one accepted it. So what are you seeing out there in your travels. And where are you as if I didn't know you accepted this thing about two seconds after it was announced? I'll first start with where I'm at and then I'll take you on a little tour because there is definitely a massive difference. And I do think the seven stages of grief is a really great way to us to view I do think the seven stages of grief is a really great way to earliest if you will. Make it worse. There are only five. There are only five left. You of all people want more grief. No. I think we need seven. We need object despair and hopelessness. You know I love shadows. I know that I didn't, but I stop with depression. Yeah. Yeah. Depression, depravity, despair, contempt, hopelessness, and resignation. Beautiful. Okay. So the five, the strong five, the full five. Number one, I've been in and out of therapy since I was eight years old because my mom's a child family therapist. So learning how to identify and name my feelings is a very -- Mhmm. -- it's a practice. Like even if I was talking about a painting I painted and I had nothing to talk even if I was talking about a painting I painted and I had nothing to talk about. I learned how to talk about it. And so I'm really fascinated by resilience and optimism for me becomes a strategy. It's like hope is a cognitive function versus an actual arrival. It's really retraining. Can you hear them outside? Okay. Let me just let me just No. No. It's okay. I like it. Let let go. Do we like it? We just feel like it. Yes. It's like the leaf blower. It's just this intense or drill into my skull has become just like ambient noise for aviation. wanna see how fundamentally optimistic soul handles that soul dead new grip of environmental torture. I just wanna see how you hold up. All that to be said is I got my first reaction when all this hit really right away, I feel a lot of sense of self All that to be said is I got my first reaction action when all of this hit really right away. I feel a lot of sense of self in I think you can only amplify your light gets built the more time you spend in the shadows. Right? That's actually how I can amplify it by being in the shadow and helping to spread that light. More. And so I felt deeply sort of mission centered and full of purpose and my tank filled during this time. And I think by virtue of, like, listen, I got the privilege of having almost four years in my tank of seeing people seeing incredible people, doing incredibly selfless things, and then getting to award them and poor rock get fuel on whatever their missions were and getting to dive in there and seeing them light up and seeing them light up traveling around with you who is beloved by all like, so many of these people and gave such a sense of hope. I mean, my tank was full. So have to acknowledge that too, where I was at that time, but I really believe like my optimism is a daily practice. It's a daily choice. It got fiercer and stronger. Throughout this whole time. And now I feel like more than ever, people are wandering these five stages of grief. I'll speak specifically when I went to Israel, people looked shell shocked. They looked -- Yeah. -- traumatized, and they looked tired. I can see a degree of fatigue in everybody that I meet regardless of the countries that I'm in because there is just, like, even the managing of that Chafing, the constant I mean, life is nothing but transition. Right? And it's our relationship with change that determines how sort of life we're gonna live. Right? But this has been an credible amount of change in such a short amount time and not everyone has had resources to deal with and, you know, everything we know, all the pretense around that. Let me talk you through what I felt in the countries I went to. I was filming in Lisbon. Lisbon is hold about Portugal. It was as if they were not I don't wanna speak to anyone's experiences who's been living there and had another experience, but I do tend to feel like those who live by the sea, they have a lot of nature, they have a breathing race. Hold on a sec, Chuck. Just by way of explanation, part of the reason I wanted to talk to Sarah today, it's probably four or five months ago. I think I was done in Florida doing something and I was in a Marriott and it was like two in the morning and I was all jet lagged and I'm flipping the TV around. And there is this woman being shot on this long lens, like walking in slow motion through fields And I don't know where she is, but she looks familiar. And I'm like lying there. I'm like, goddamn it. That looks like Sarah. That's so weird. I look so much like Sarah. And then the woman starts talking in voice over about what it's like to wander through the azores. And Portugal, unlike SARA. SO SHE'S ONE OF THESE BONVOY TRAVEL SPECIALIST NOW TELLING HER STORY you know, I was so tired, but I couldn't fall asleep now. I mean, I'm there in a Marriott. Why is this there? I'm like, what is she doing? Why aren't she in the Azores? Anyway, go ahead. Because obviously, you said Lisbon, that must have been what you were filming over there. S hysterical, personal, absolutely hysterical. I I was looking for the porn channel, and there are you Exactly. Walking to a porch. What a bummer. The opposite of what you were looking for? No doubt. Telling you some sort of slow drum about Like, don't wanna hear about big fields and and family trees. That's not what I'm looking for at two in the morning in a Marriott. Brown chicken brown cow. I'm looking for a mini bar at a little quiet time. I got that deadbolt going on my door. I'm ready rock. Do not disturb. Do not come in here now. What does happen? I'm gonna be popping up for the next two years, I would keep scanning through your channels quickly. Yeah. And with caution. It was beautiful by the way, all kidding aside, it was beautifully was beautiful. By the way, all kidding aside, it was beautifully shot, and you told a great story about, I think, if I remember the Jewish Diaspora. Right? Or Diaspora? Your people, all overlooking for your roots. Did you find them? Totally. I found aspects of it, so my family traced back thanks to good old twenty three and me and some help from ancestry dot com. I have found that my family traces back to the azure. And there's this one synagogue that's left on the Azores. Mhmm. And my dad who used to own a documentary film production company back in the day, did this voyage across over there and built these sort of initial relationships for me to be able to go in there. And the aging process of every year of your life. Whenever you're confronted more with your mortality, I get everything gets more poetic. You have more interest and curiosity to figure out where from and connect you to something bigger. We found that we're from this small enclave of Jews that were kicked out in the inquisition and, like, we're underground, really. We're probably masquerading as Christians -- Mhmm. -- at that time for Catholics. And we're really observing and keeping Jewish tradition within these beautiful hills and in these like sort of cave temples and all these places, but what really struck me and moved me and probably impacted me most about even just studying this is just how as anyone in the Diaspora story is the only thing that maintains. Right? Like half of your most of my family was in Western Europe during World War two. Jews. It wasn't exactly, like, an ideal time to be there. So you lose a lot of people. Exactly. So you don't have the same tangibles. To return to. And I could argue most people don't have that as it carries to the line, but story is really just what maintains. I'm sure these things get amplified. Someone draws a little something extra on a k wall. Larry's always exaggerating Chaffing another cow to the dowry. I mean these are stories that my grandfather, my dad's grandfather, told us through time and through that game of telephone. It's just been so powerful to travel that area with another set of eyes and a sense of sort of connection and deeper because America is so we're such a hodgepodge. We're all from somewhere else. Mhmm. And we've arrived here, and I would argue all rallying behind this idea. The idea of America that we want to defend is an idea. But we're all from so many different places that I'm seeing us develop more of I don't know, relationship with that as our world gets more global. It's just happening in real time for me, so I'm sort of in it and observing it simultaneously. As As a guy who enjoys four cups of coffee, every single morning, a glass of wine at dinner and a sensible bourbon in the evening a guy who enjoys four cups of coffee every single morning, a glass of wine at dinner, and a sensible bourbon, In the evening hours. 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I just can't see any scenario I have about the future that's authentic and happy and full and real and me, it has huge amounts of RCF it. Right? Whatever new manifestation of that. And I feel like I kind of feel this responsive ability to continue moving forward. Right? I have the power and the energy and the interest. And on a selfish level, nothing that makes me feel more full and whole than elevating the right people on stories, getting people to rally around that, and mainly getting people. I think the thing that makes me most exhilarated, you know, I'm a musical theater personified, sorry, I think the thing that makes me most exhilarated. You know, I'm a musical theater certified. Sorry, Chuck. not as probably used to that. No. I grew up in a fucking kidding me. Hey, Israel. Oh, I did. Yes. Yes. Yes. And, oh, Oh, you're my you're my people. Okay. Great. Or I'm yours. What I've been really like during this whole year because I also wanted to sit back and the world is changing rapidly. Right? The stories that were needing and people are tired. Right? People are really tired. Right? Exhausted, though. Exhausted. And so it's a little bit of different world where we were riding that upswing with RTF, and now people are just needing that rest on the plateau for a moment. And then we get our energy to climb another mountain or whatever our next thing is. RTF made me realize we can do things so differently. We can do things so so differently, and I wanna inspire people in whatever way I can, whether it's amplifying stories or sharing different messages or just rallying my energy behind, I wanna ignite people's sense of agency to feel like as an individual, they do have the ability to impact a collective. They recognize the power of what it means to start in their community and at home and what an act of kindness really can do beyond a buzzword. Wow. When was the moment when you thought, oh, crap. This thing is bigger than thought. Maybe we got a tiger by the tail. At one point, we sort of stopped meeting words to connect -- Mhmm. -- with each other and there was this real improv magic of just understanding each other and the ball throwing back and forth and black and forth while we were building something bigger than ourselves that was just such a nourishing I don't even know a better word for it, but just such a full, wholehearted, it's the feeling you get probably Chuck when you're performing and you have your lines and you're in that moment and you built a paradigm, in that reality with any of the other players on the stage. And it's really this special paradigm that you've built that all the noise that the outside world melts away and you're just present. You're just focused so deeply on these moments and because I've done so many shows before there's so many. You have to really work at that. And you're usually alone kind of the one trying to not be negative while everyone Chafing their cigarettes and has an ID six cups of coffee. I can tell you as an observer of this, seeing you, I don't remember what the episode was, but I do remember the first time I saw you interacting with can tell you as an observer of this seeing you I don't remember what the episode was, but I do remember the first time I saw you interacting with Mike. And I was like, oh, wow. Because it really was special. You guys had a great chemistry straight out of gate. And let me just say this is guy who doesn't, like, I can be sappy, I suppose, but you've mentioned before about how Chafing the fourth wall was such an important thing. Mike insisted on that and said, this isn't a feel good show. This is the making of a feel good show. And I think it made all the difference in the world because I never watched an episode of this show that didn't get me a little misty at the end and usually it was because it was so casual, a lot of back and forth because we were seeing the warts in all aspect of it. All of a sudden, when something real got there, it was like, oh, wow. You know, this is really good stuff. It was just beautiful. And I never should have gone away. I agree. And I do think though that there's the audience has voted. Right? They voted with their attention. In a time, that's the only kind of metric that really matters in real impact way. They very clearly showed up for that. It showed us that people are able to draw a connection between what they're observing behind the screen to their real lives. Right? Like, I always said, we're an online show that creates offline action. And it's the constant which, you know, I do attribute to my completely for holding that cultural pillar that he sort of continued that torch passed along to me as well is now also, like, really maintaining that and demanding that that it's gotta feel like you've kicked your shoes off and you're curling up with something warm on a friend's couch, and it's got to be a Trojan horse. Like, we need to be entertained. Adutainment is real. I learned best when I'm laughing. I can relate and what do they say that laughter is like another form of prayer the highest form of prayer, even if we're telling fart jokes, and I'm one of -- Whatever. -- one women with nine hundred guys, but I would argue that I could hang and handle it. I have a twin I'm twin brother. I'd argue that you Maybe I was even No. I've been in the cab with you. That Ford Explorer, we were coming back from that Mexican joint. We were running late. You were super excited. You're barking out orders and suddenly I'm like, you wanna crack a window, Sarah? I mean, honest to God, what happened? Family baby. We live. We live. We live on the road. People said, Chuck, in regard to the dynamic you're talking about, that the show worked best when we finally let Hudson be Hudson, the production company, and let Mike be Mike. But the truth is, Sarah was somewhere between the two of us. She was the connective tissue that allowed a pretty traditional production company who wanted to do a fairly straight forward show. And by the way, that's what Facebook wanted to And by the way, that's what Facebook wanted to. Right? They wanna move that bus. They just wanted to go straight to the fields. But you can't get straight to the fields. Without manipulating people. And so I didn't wanna do that. And that was the tricky balance. And, Sarah is actually Sara's filthy, Chuck. I mean, you don't get a filthy sense of humor. She's really inappropriate. She'll far if she feels like it, she'll tell off color jokes, but she's so sweet and she's so relentlessly optimistic. That that's what makes her interesting. But finally, to give credit where it's due, I'll take my share of it because the idea of a documentary camera or a BTS camera originated with thirty jobs. The smartest thing did on that show and the only reason it's coming back next month is because we got that component introduced into the production back in two thousand five. It wouldn't have happened here, but for Mary Sullivan. You know Mary, Sarah. You love Mary. Who'd I love Mary? I love Mary. But I passed on this show three times. No, hell, no, and are you out of your mind? Stop asking me. Right? There was just no way I'm gonna do. I feel good show. No way in world. But it was Mary who pulled me aside and said, look dummy. Just do the same thing you did with dirty jobs. Just document the making of the show. Everything else will be what it is. Didn't know what that meant. Yes. But she was right. It's so difficult today to get a hit show in general. As everybody on this call knows. But to get a hit show that's unique and not derivative, that's nearly impossible. And to get a hit show that's unique that has two million followers on Facebook who every single week are going, hey, that was great. What about this? What about him? You know, to have the show programmed for you by fans of the show. That is insanely rare. It's lighting in a bottle. It's very weird to get, and that's why I think we were all surprised when Facebook said, No, you know what? I think, you know, we're good. We did hundred. We wanna do something else. It's their sandbox. No harm, no foul. But, boy, it was just a straight up surprise for anybody who works in this industry. As we all have to have a network slash platform go, As we all have, to have a network slash platform go, wow. Yeah. That was amazing. I guess we're done. Like, what? Done? I would argue there was harm and foul. It was just such a mist. Look for two to do where the truth sorta comes out. You know, that's where you're talking about. Difference between this show, everything you just said, I agree wholeheartedly, completely, and we were flabbergasted. And as we all accelerated through those stages of grief, everyone's at different levels with this whole RTF community, it felt like This isn't even a show. This is about real people. Mhmm. There are real people now who are missing out on the ability to be amplified. There are real people who need this lift. This is where all the television money should go to. These are the people who need that endless amount of advertising cash or whatever it is. This is the stuff that's really moving the needle. And if you wanna walk your talk, there's no better treadmill than RTF. Right? We had a formula going, but it was about real people. And it still is about real people. And that makes it bigger than my sadness or bigger than my frustration or bigger than my loss of that paycheck. Absolutely. Look, first and foremost, we're just friends and we're talking casually and off the cuff, and honestly, but I know. That the fundamental feeling for this whole thing is one of gratitude. We were given an extraordinary platform the chance to reach a billion people. And a lot of money, we gave away millions of dollars on this show. And we all got paid fairly. I don't mean any of this to sound critical of Facebook. They gave us an extraordinary platform. Mhmm. And a hundred swings at the pinata. And we hit it every time. It's just that Facebook is not a network. Facebook is a different animal. I don't believe. I mean, I can't speak for them, but I don't think they look at this as a show either. They looked at it as a thing to do for a while, and then they need to do another thing. And that's okay. Mhmm. We just weren't used to it. Unfortunately, neither were the fans. I don't know about you, but not a day goes by, where I don't hear from dozens of. I mean, literally dozens. When's it coming back? Totally. And also, how is so and so doing? Do you keep up with any of them? Totally you're absolutely right, and I will also say that Facebook gave us tremendous freedom. My critique is more of just it's an optimistic critique because I do think there's new portals open and new we've challenged some convention. These last few years, you've been challenging convention since two thousand five before that. But we've challenged a convention that makes me think there are now other ways to move around, there. Other gatekeepers, there are other ways to get back to the people which really matters, but Facebook did give us tremendous freedom and an amazing platform for are other gatekeepers, there are other ways to get back to the people, which really matters. But Facebook did give us tremendous freedom and an amazing platform for that. I get messages like that all the time as well I do my best to keep up. I have insane Google Docs of everybody that I know, any community organizer even someone who maybe helped us or assisted or do good or or insider and their wife. And just little notes you'd make it like a host stand, you know, like, Larry, blue eyes, dad jokes or something like that. Like, he's just something that clusters and I'm just looking at this document and it's this beautiful mosaic of the other America that's very real. And that's alive and is true. The multiple truths of all times, but there are so many do gooders in this country, and I argue everyone's capable of it. You know where stand. I know where you stand. It's a bit like I watched. It's a wonderful life yesterday for maybe the 500th time in my a wonderful life yesterday for maybe the five hundred time in my life. It gets me every time and I see something new in it every time I watch it. I think of that movie so much or I thought of it so much when we were filming this series because we really are connected And sometimes, it's not the reward. It's not the money that we were giving these people. It was just paying attention. And putting them up on that platform. Think about Luke Mikkelson. That may have been the episode where I met you. That's my first episode. Twin Falls. Yeah. It wasn't false. Was it? It was false. Mike got out of the van and I met him in real time. Yeah. Oh, camera. Yeah. And I started correcting her in the car. Like, we're driving along and she's in the back seat. She goes well. Our honoree this week is especially good. And I'm like, No, Sarah. They're all equally good. Okay? gonna suggest this guy is special. You might as well just say the rest of them are dog crap. Okay? Don't do that. She said, okay. Okay. Okay. And then she said something else that I correct her again just because I'm just seeing where the line is with this woman, but the line is nowhere. You can get away with anything with Sarah. She'll roll with anything. My point was I love it. You loved Luke Mickle your enthusiasm for him. This was the dynamic that I wanted in the show that I hadn't experienced yet. I wanted a producer who was jumping out of their skin with enthusiasm to introduce me to someone. And that's what you got immediately. And you did, and then we did. And then it goes on the air. And this guy went from, what, eight chapters when we met him, I think he has almost six hundred now. That's unbelievable. I remember the year after he was Yes. This peace. This is the guy that makes the bunk beds for poor kids in really rough parts of is the guy that makes the bunk beds for poor kids and really rough parts of town. Kids sleep on the ground. Every night in this country, millions of kids sleep on the floor. They don't have bed. It's incredible. And this guy Luke Nicholson just said, nope, not in my town. Started making beds. He had eight chapters when Sarah introduced me to him and now I think he's well over five hundred. don't know how many. You think about the impact of that day, that one day, that one meeting, and then returning the favor goes on and his entire world changes. That's not a TV show. It's not a TV show. And you see it, like, I remember, I think we got that the following year, less than year later, I was living in New York and I met him in New York down by Central Park where he was being nominated. I came in with him and his life, Heidi, an amazing woman. And they invited me as their guest because I was living there to attend, he was a nominated for CNN Hero Award. So he gets to be put in other camps and he gets to be recognized. And it was just that beautiful acceleration of I've always had a strange time with the people that we amplify. Culturally, particularly after, you know, no shame and escapist reality television around, like, in the Bravo world or things like that. I sometimes feel sad about the overemphasis we have on that with the under emphasis of some other people, like people you would highlight in dirty jobs. Right? And so this show proved that that wasn't just a sweet, lovely, charming little concept that actually could make you money on a bottom line level in terms of people being interested in it, and it really actually inspired offline action. Right? It was not this that fourth wall was because it engaged the viewer. It was a reciprocal process, It was reciprocal process. Right? The creation of the art, the reception of the art, putting it back in. It was this really, I can't think of another example of that show in any genre. No. Right? That really broke that. We very nearly screwed it up. A couple of times early on because you just mentioned the four letter word that really chaps my ass hero. It's used all time. And in my opinion, it's misused more often than not. Heroes are real, and heroes are important. It's something more than simply being kind and good and big hearted. And that's part of the reason I was kind of a jagged little pill. On returning the favor because I didn't want to turn these people into heroes. I just wanted to thank them for being slightly better than the average bear. Producers have a hard time with that. Producers want the hero. We want the incredible in the first season. I remember sitting in on some production meetings. And hearing things like, well, this guy's doing great work, but he got into some trouble years ago, did a little time, so we really can't put him out there as the embodiment. Of the kind of person we're looking for. And I was like, that's exactly what I wanna do. I would like to show people that even the fallen and the flawed are capable of doing something good. Arguably more more capable. Right? Yes. When you felt what it feels like to have the fall, you can empathize with the people in that, you know, you need to feel a full range to be able to give the full range. And you need to show the full range. I'm suspicious too. You I'm I'm not sure this is a sense I'm allowed to say. I'm suspicious of diversity for diversity's sake. whatever. I see every box checked in just the right I see every box checked in just the right way, it makes me think, okay, well, somebody's checking boxes. But on this show, it was really important. And we featured many people of color. We featured people of all orientations. We featured, I think, as many men as we did women. Maybe even more. And then from my own personal bias, Sarah, We leaned into cops. We leaned into the military. I mean, how many shows did you and I do? Looking at organizations who were wrestling with PTSD and finding alternative ways to move that needle. I'm damn proud of that. And I'm honestly more proud with every passing month. When I look back on that, what was your moment? If there's one honor read for you, and I know that's a stupid question because just this morning somebody hit me with you, what was your dirtiest job, Mike? I get a satellite media tour this morning because as you may have heard, the show's coming back on the second of January. Eight o'clock. This January -- January twenty twenty two. -- it's coming right now just a couple of weeks. Yeah. Yes. It's back, man. It's a I don't believe it. But the people have been starving for it. I think so. I'm Chafing a snack. That's it. Yeah. What the country needs is more of me. I don't wanna say you're a hero, Mike. But I am at a loss for another a loss for another word. I'm right with you, Chuck. I have a loss. That you'll see. Exactly. So who is it? The person who I feel like, so I can't say Luke, cause that was very The person who I feel like so I can't say Luke because that was very clear. That was my first was my first thing. Right? That's the thing it to be wide open. And I was like, and it, and I kept questioning, is this really as wonderful as it And I was like and it and I kept questioning, is this really as wonderful as it seems and it was every single time? Yeah. I had the ability Chuck to be able to, like, use my superpower of of warmth and genuine curiosity for people to actually connect them with money. Right? I was like, I gotta put my head down. I gotta double down and I gotta work my us off. It's not about me. It's for, like, I have an opportunity to do something bigger. Golf course melts my heart. There it is. Bill Denson? Smelt to my heart. Bill Denson was one of the few phone calls I took when I got married in Israel Chuck in two thousand nineteen, right, for the world shifted. And Bill Dunson was one of the only phone calls I took from abroad for him wishing me off telling me Aisle, Bill Johnson on paper. We're all like, what the hell is this? A golf course, like defending the right to have golf course is great But when you're putting it against the opioid crisis and foster care and homelessness, you needed to do a little more digging and you needed to be convinced more and this man became emblematic for me as this really understanding what kind of impact you have on your community with just community care in general. Like, truly a do gooder. This is This man was Just to help the listener out. Yeah, please. He was eighty nine. Yeah. That's time, I think, maybe, and he lived on a mountain in the back beyond. What town was it, Sarah? It was right outside of Spokane, Washington. Yeah. He lost his brother not too long before we met him and those two were just thicker than thieves. They lived together and they built this municipal golf course together on their property, which they opened for free to anybody who wanted to golf. And they maintained it. They cut all the grass. They took care of the greens, they did everything, and they did it all for whatever donations you could leave behind. And I remember when they pitched it to me, I was like, this sounds perfect. And to your point, they were like, yeah, but it's not like he's curing cancer. I'm like, no one's curing cancer. What he's doing -- Yeah. -- he's making every day a little bit better for the people who share his geography. And so that's awesome. Let's go meet the old guy. And man, you're right. That day was genuinely fun from sun up to sun down. Seriously. From the moment we landed and I scooped you up out of the minivan and I hopped in my golf cart and we rattled down the hill, this man, he's just, he's someone who makes you believe if you forget, he really the moment we landed and I scooped you up, out of the minivan and I helped you in my golf cart. Let me rattle down the middle. This man, he's just he's someone who makes you believe if you forget. Mhmm. It really is this just pure, hearted, giggly, goofy. He's human. He'll tell a dirty joke. He'll be playful. He's just warmth. He's the best of us. That to me becomes one of the more powerful epic So it's because it's so deeply accessible and it reminds you that all we need are people to come alive and whatever makes them feel alive. Yep. And that's the stuff we need. We don't need you to go out there. Like, I don't have the skin to be in the foster care community. I wish and I salute them. I don't have the skin. Right. I don't have the skill set for a wild fire fighter. I don't have the courage, but I do have warmth and I can love on my neighbor and I can be generous when the opportunity presents itself. And that's the stuff we need. Yeah. From people. Right? You know? It's the danger in swinging for the fences all of the time. As a producer, you want the hero, you want the big story. You want the home run. What you really wanna do is build a hit show. And the way to build a hit show is with singles and doubles. Just keep putting runs on the board. And Bill Dunson was just a solid right down the middle. It was, I mean, that's a great He was I mean, that's a great point. We featured some people who go so far and beyond who are so altruistic. Who are so completely given over to their cause that it's little unrelatable. The average person looks at that and goes, I never dedicate my whole life to that, but anybody could do would build it and to be 89 and to be so present, he touched a lot of The average person looks at that and goes, I could never dedicate my whole life to that, but anybody could do what Bill did. And to be eighty nine and to be so present, he touched a lot of people, and then remember, he did something else pretty extraordinary, something that makes a show like this matter in ways that we often don't think about, but he died. Our friend Bill died. And he died not long after we profiled him. And the letters I got from fans, the letters I got from his family, from people who knew him, who were just, Mike, thank you. Thank you for shining a light on our friend. This will happen unfortunately to you more and more as you work in television and you get older and older. There's a guy who we feature in this episode, this run of dirty jobs coming up, who died a month after we filmed him. No one's met him yet, and people are gonna love him. And that I'm gonna hop on after the show and explain, what happened. And so if you're gonna do a show that's real, if you're gonna do a show about life, then you're also ultimately going to do a show about saying goodbye too. If If you have ever wanted to make your home feel you have ever wanted to make your home feel safer. 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And when Bill died on returning the favor, I'll tell you, I was sad, obviously, but I was also just reminded of the incredible reality of the form in which we're working. Right. Right. And there's nothing thing. I mean, there's no greater news than mortality. Nothing. There's nothing that drives you harder than mortality. In that way, I think that I would venture to say cautiously these last few years have been gift even if it's been a painful one. At times, it really wakes you back up and the spirit gets amplified after it's left the body too. There's this way of feeling like you wanna honor someone who's made an impact on you. I feel like that I feel motivated to continue when I know that person's not doing the legwork. Right. It's like being part of a school project where you've been kind of slacking and then you're all student gets sick and you have to rally somewhere along there. It's a good metaphor. Does show made me feel just we weren't alone. Separation is a myth. We're so connected. We walk around in different bags of skin and different We walk around in different bags of skin and different experiences, and we have different narrative arcs and different resources. When you tap into that core part of people that's so deeply human and the messiness of it and the slippery playfulness of life, that it can be is that's the stuff that made everything melt away that our TFI really feel like narrowed down on. And I would say you protected that. You mean Because we came from a world where I was working a lot of jobs. The UN prior to this, like, I hadn't worked on the same kind of shows, but the shows that I had worked on you didn't have another option. You almost didn't question it. Right. There wasn't a pushback. This is just we get this sloppy weird model. We have to plug it in. This is the way it is. Keep moving robotically, and you really rewired my brain in that way. And the show then continued to force that as a truth and possibility. So this full circle, I'm worn RTF, and I'm so fueled. To continue the work in the world. Like, I just feel so inspired by that. Good. I'm glad you do. I think at this point, definitely too young to be bitter and broken, but you're maybe too young too to I don't know. The thing about the moments you're talking about is that you can't really appreciate that them until some time goes by. Yeah. Like, I knew that Bill was super special when I met him because he reminded me of my granddad. And my granddad is the reason dirty jobs went on the air in the first place. And my personal feeling about the way we've become disconnected from the elderly in our country is, well, it's personal and it makes me angry and it makes me I feature a lot of old people on the shows that I that I work on. Whenever I can, you still don't know. You have to shoot it and then you have to leave and then somebody else has to take it and they have to edit it and then it has to sit. And then it airs. And then you still don't get to decide. The viewers get to decide. You just put it out there. You make the best guess you can. I felt pretty sure that people were gonna love Bill and they did. I've been wrong before too. I've bet heavily. It's It's humbling, Sarah. You just don't know. Right now, I've got a ridiculous song on the charts. Called Santa's got dirty job. Right? Now that thing turned into a thing. Last week was the most downloaded song in world. I did I was Chaffing the bag when I did it. With the guy I just met, and we just did it as a fundraiser, and it turned into this giant thing. That's the most micro sentence and experience I've ever heard in life. What you just said, that entire experience from top to my life. But you just said that entire experience from top to bottom. Unbelievable. Yeah. I mean, if it's not that, I'm gonna marry up flicking around and I see Sarah. Walking through a field of flowers. And I'm like, what how much weird it's in my life, bro? But the point is, I've got treatments around here that I've written years ago, and I've got pitches for all kinds of ideas that I really think are good and I've worked on them and I I've done everything I can to make them work and they don't work. The stuff that works is the stuff that I don't know. You just never know which piece of mud is gonna stick. I think the point I was trying to get toward was I can't believe you brought up Bill. That was gonna be my answer. But what about mama with Abigail? Ma Harper. Ma Harper for crying out loud, Abigail. She's from the stand of conflating fiction with non fiction. Ma Harper. Ma Harper. Good app. I still talk with Ma Harper. I haven't talked with their probably in well, now it's, like, probably seven months. She is kicking and striving. Ma Harper is a delish a human being. Ma Harper ran a I can't remember the name of it. It's in I'm stuck on stuck on delicious. I don't know that you could describe humans as delicious -- Yes, sir. -- especially once we run a kitchen. If you're jeffrey dommers. We're switching positions. I've been spending too much time on the with the damer family, maybe. Over the last few seasons. Christmas with the dollars. This is with the dollars. That's the next hit the next hit. Ma Harper is a woman who understood how to give love and really was relentless with not she didn't give up on soul. She ran a kitchen and it was employed almost, I think exclusively by ex cons. Yep. She hired X cons to do everything, to cook, to wait, and she was, like, maybe a hundred and forty years old. Yes. Truly. My husband's pre intention San Antonio. San Antonio, Texas. She ran a tight ship. She was sweet. She was ancient. We gave her some money and threw her a little surprise party at the end. I was touched by that one too because the enthusiasm and the gratitude of her own family and the people who came out there. It was another one of my favorites because it was small and big at the same time. It was micro and macro. It was a good one. That was my as well. Part of my job was to sort of get boomerangs out into this community. And I had to sort of go build relationships and build trust with the I had to to go build relationships and build trust with the community. So I sat in a lot of church pews and diners and living rooms, which, you know, I feast it off So I sat in a lot of church pews and diners and living rooms, which you know I feasted off of. I love I love that. Yeah. The apology major. Mhmm. With Ma Harper's Kitchen, I went in there and was immediately dancing some sort of local dance they were doing in her kitchen. We were just dancing around there for so long. And this woman is tiny. She's a Polly Pocket of a human being. Truly. And she's just booming with life and vibrancy, and she immediately feels like everyone's grandmother. But just that special kind of love that you can't get and she just never gave up on her soul. She's had about nine hundred strokes. I don't know if any of her organs are the organs she was born with. No. Like, this woman is resilient. And she just kept her kitchen open. I mean, it was not a far profit business at the end of the day, even if it was functioning as that. If you needed a hot meal, you came to my Harper. If the world felt cold and lonely, you came to my Harper, she'd give you tough love, she'd give you a meal, but more than a meal, she'd give you a job. Right? You don't want to be fed. You want to work. You want a job. She was incredible. You just felt so at home with her. Guys, my computers died. One was. Computer's guy, classic, of course, she's a producer. She's been operating with a computer that's not plugged in this whole time. She's very enthusiastic and very pretty, She's not that bright. I got to tell you my tell you my favorite. Like, it just hit me really hard. I remember really getting emotional with it. Was operation like saver. I'll tell you what got me more than anything was done as nearly the story of the individuals, like, you're talking to guys or missing limbs and stuff like that. But what got me was that all the cops showed up, the firemen showed up, the bikers showed up like the whole community came out. To surprise this guy. And I was like, wow, this guy, that's a it's wonderful life moment. You see all those people were affected. That was every ending episode of RTF. All of the people in the community, but that one got me really useful. think I cried every single save for, like, one or two depending on how challenging the episode had been just with the battling of the elements. I'm just thinking of raw fieri's finale. There weren't as many tears that I -- Yeah. -- the sweat glands had emptied all of the water by the show became addictive. You were running for that feeling of this is real life. And you're having it. This is a wonderful life moment all the time, but it's real This is a wonderful life moment all the time, but it's real life. The people coming together rallying behind this person, that was the most moving part of every episode for me. It was also the thing that I worried the most about as we got into the second and third season, because the act of observing a thing, changes a thing, the uncertainty principle Heisenberg and so forth that is true in TV, on It was also the thing that I worried the most about as we got into the second and third season because the act of observing a thing changes a thing, the uncertainty principle, Heisenberg, and so forth. That is true in TV on steroids. When people know they're on TV and they've seen a show, this started to happen with thirty jobs early on and I found a way to fix it where people would start to perform because there was some sort of expectation. This show was especially difficult because it was a surprise. And so the first season, Chuck, part of the reason that episode with Jason Sademann got you. Part of the reason operation bikes saver worked so well is that Jason and his wife thought I was there to do, like, a dirty job. They were like, why is the dirty job guy here. This is so cool, you know, because they knew me from that. And so the possibility that there were going to come around the corner and see the entire community waiting for them with eighty thousand dollars worth of new parts and equipment and tools and a painted structure and all this stuff. It was inconceivable. That it would happen. And that I thought was pretty great. And then season two comes along. And I'm like, okay. So that episode was viewed over fifty million times. times. So now we got to do it again and now people are going to be like, oh, it's now we gotta do it again, and now people are gonna be like, oh, it's you. Oh my god. I'm gonna get a present. What's it gonna be? And I'm like, okay. So you probably don't know this. I just went and I said, look, we had a good run, but we only have two columns here. Kill the show. Or replace the house. You know that. I was ready to step aside. I said, it's a I sent it to Facebook and I sent it to Michael. I said, look, I'll step aside. I think you have a good thing going here, but how are you gonna surprise people if they know I'm there? And so I really struggled with how to do that. And then for a while, it was like, well, you're the surprise, Mike. So they'll know when you show up that something good's gonna happen. They just don't know what it is. And I thought, well, I guess it's Christmas morning. You know, you're gonna get something. Exactly. You just don't know what? We settled into that. And then it I love that. You really maintained the integrity belts on the whole really maintained the integrity belt on the whole show in that way. It's a good motivator to get fundraising outside fundraising when we wanted project that was bigger than maybe what we were given by the network to give, you know, out on the show. Being seen, being philanthropic, tends to motivate people to wanna double down and get on stage. That's fine. That's great. We use that in our favor and everyone want. It was a I mean, the amount of fake production companies, the amount of pseudonyms we responded to, we were filming a high level operation. Trying to get Mike in. And there were some people that were just We would love when it was someone who had been living under and didn't know or just had never seen Mike before. Those are few and far between. But we would love that because it was just this very rare moment where we could really we had a little more time because they always figured it out. We had probably like a half hour window before they really started to be like, wait a second. That voice, that face, something. You wanna hear what's really screwed up, Sarah. I haven't admitted this before. And by the way, the integrity belt, that's very funny. Like a chastity belt, only with honor. I went from look, I'm a step away from this thing because people know me. And I don't wanna wreck it to exactly what you described Chafing across people in season three and four who didn't know me and walking away and saying to myself, tells a matter with these people. How do they not know who I am? How do you not know me? Are you aware of this reward? Are you aware of this? Do you not own a television? You know what? No money for you. No surprise for you. Maybe next time, You'll pay little more attention. Not no, William. It's just so strange being in TV, making TV, trying hard to get out of your own way. Yeah. That's really the thing. So many of our conversations, both on and off camera, have been about can we get out of our own way with this? How can we just let this show be the thing we want it to be? It's like the hippocratic oath for producers. Don't bitch it up. Job one. Don't go to page. And somehow, there's a lot of beautiful camaraderie that comes from when you have a healthy set and everyone's operating with a call culture of collaboration, and we were really working for something bigger. And and I swore an oath years ago that I really couldn't compartmentalize. It's not a balanced lifestyle, production. And that world, you really are fully in it. It's fifteen, eighteen hour days. You're traveling all the time. You don't have standard dynamics in life. You're really choosing to give your life to this thing I made the You're really choosing to give your life to this thing. I made the oh, I'd say probably four years before RTF did not do anything that wasn't uplifting or didn't really I can't sell something I don't believe in. It's not worth my time, my energy isn't served well, but this show was so much more than a show. It's a movement that I think is still deeply. It's bubbling. It's there. It's dormant and it's Chafing. It's active. But these people are gonna keep going because that was how we chose people Chuck too. Would these people continue to be doing this if a camera was not in their face? Would they be doing that off camera? would say everyone -- Right. -- we featured ninety-nine point nine percent of it. They're still off operating. They were operating the day we left. They were operating the day before we arrived. That's the critical component that makes it so much more than show. The camera makes people very strange. The camera can be a crazy maker. It really pulls out some wild parts of people and it can amplify some of the darker points of people as well. But this show, which is the amount of background checks we would do, that fortunately then we're pushed beyond our standard contract to say, is this person really living a life now? Right? Now we love a CD passed. It was a process. It was a process. I'm not a CD passed. Indeed. I keep badgering. This point, I am deeply inspired and energized and exhilarated by the this point, I am deeply inspired and energized and exhilarated by the future that's now been sort of carved by RTF. We have way too many numbers for this to be something that doesn't move the needle if it gets repackaged or pitched differently or something. Look, I mean, that's part of the reason I wanted to have you on. Believe it or not, a fair amount of people listen to this Chafing, and some of them work in the business. It doesn't have to be Facebook. It doesn't have to be called returning the favor. Netflix could green light pay it forward. We could pick up right where we left off. Do you remember? Yeah. I think his name was Barney, I think it might have been maybe the first thing we did after the lockdown. It's Barney's food pantry. Barney's food Barney's food pantry. That was an important one too because it was just so great to see you again. And it was so great to be out in the world and actually shooting something when nobody else was. It's worth remembering too. We did what 18 of these things in this exact setup, me sitting right where I'm sitting now, you guys out in the world trying to pull the returning favors long We did what? Eighteen of these things in this exact setup. Me sitting right where I'm sitting now, you guys out in the world trying to fully returning favors long distance. And Chaffing those things, I'm sure I'm not supposed to say this, but those things got better numbers than the show itself. Oh, no. Because everybody Nobody knows why. We can call some people. Make some way. Have you ever read Rebecca have you ever read Rebecca Sultan third, last name, Sultan. I'm butchering her name. She has a book called a Paradise built in hell, and it talks about these utopian instincts that we have in devastation. And the devastation could be anything from a shared calamity like someone is a house fire. It brings out, you know, to something larger that we all experience. And in pre COVID, I did a lot of, like, my master's study on this of just how do we bring out that more Ethiopian fill and drop topic nature in people outside of a catastrophe. But RTF the people on RTF is how. Right? Spending more time with these people to remember that you can make a difference. Mhmm. In the smaller ways, that's why I did love these stories like Bill Dunton and Ma Harper and things like that, those tended to be the ones that really stuck to me even more just because they were so accessible. They left me out of excuses too. I ran out of the way. Well, they're modest. It's modestly. That's all there is to it. If there was any ongoing debate between me and production, it always had to do with modestly. Because the size of the reveal was often -- Yes. -- bigger was better. Bigger the reveal, the better it is. So let's get a football field. Let's fill the stadium, let's do it from the Let's fill the stadium. Let's do it from moon. Yeah. It'll never stop. And it's like, no, it's actually not that. And it's the same point you're talking about a Paradise Building Hell, when you wait for the calamity to call the cage in navy. But the truth is, somebody's doing some cage in navy stuff right now, right down the street. Somebody somewhere in your neighborhood is doing a thing that is actually noble. We're either gonna memorialize that -- right? Or ignore Right. -- or ignore it. The choice to pay attention to those small acts was the reason I ultimately did returning the favors. That combined with the behind the scenes camera. That was it for me. Anything else that was on somebody else's dime or in somebody else's lane? My job was to keep it small, try not to get in our own way, and see what happened. We all did our jobs actually. And you said something to me once in one of those SUVs. I think you were driving, which would explain why my sphincter was slammed shut so tight. I Sarah's many things, Chuck. Driving is A passenger gal. Driver's not one of them to be fair. She had a lot going on. Right? She's thinking of a lot of things. She's producing a show. She's driving an SUV. She's trying to get to the proper location, but she's also on camera. We have three, four cameras in the SUV. So she's on camera She's navigating. She tried to have a conversation with me. Try not to get her own way. Try to do all these things. But she's also driving. And it's terrifying. This is straight up terrifying. I think we were in Snowquame up there at these Indeed. Salish Lodge. I do. Remember? It's a saleless sludge. Yeah. I was like this the saleless sludge or the saleless The saleless sludge seems terrific. And we very nearly got cut in half by an eighteen wheeler, but we lived. I forget exactly what said. And Sarah got weirdly serious for a minute. I think you were quoting somebody, but you said, look, my job is to make sure no one is ever humiliated in my presence, I think you were quoting somebody, but you said, look, my job is to make sure no one is ever humiliated in my press. Frankel. Okay. And I thought, what a great sentiment? What a great thing to bring into TV especially in the world of reality where people's discomfort and people's pain, people's humiliation. Is the stuff of hits. Returning the favor was the opposite of that. You are the opposite of that. And here with another Christmas around the corner, I thought one of my favorite Jewish friends could come on to spread a little sunshine as you're there hunker down in your bunker with six to nine Jews working away on plumbing and drilling. If your computer quietly loses power. The Jews were the original carpenters. Our last remaining carpenter. We joke, but that's probably a good place to start to land the plane. When you think about Luke, McGelson on Mormon, maybe with the funny underwear at all, I know. And I think about you, yes. In Heidi with her integrity belt, nevermind the Heidi, with her integrity belt, never mind that chastity. I think with what four or five kids, I'm pretty sure I know how. Which way the wind's blown over there? It was an incredibly diverse cast It was really accurate cross section of our country with people of various backgrounds and religions and identities, all with really one thing in common, trying to make their little slice of their zip code a better place to be. It was a good thing we did, miss a good thing. I'm itching to get back out there. I have faith this isn't the end. In some capacity. Just we've seen too much. I'm not I'm not itching. I'm actually chafing, which I believe is even worse. It starts with an itch. Chuck. And then the next thing, you know, you're chafing, and then you're ordering the Bluestone appointment off the info commercial. Mhmm. Oh, he knows. To get a moment You're using, using absolutely, you know, a ruler or a golf club to scratch that back. Have you seen a new start? Sarah, what are you working on now? Right now? So I'm actually building my own little so I'm actually building my own little venture that's operating on kind of a five year plan. That's really the thing I've determined for anything that's real. It's that fun. You can make a plan and then God laughs and shakes it up. So my long term plan So I'm building a production company that I've had for years, but I'm shifting it over to something called common ground studios, which I wanna just be a part of creating and launching any kind of uplifting, amplifying of character stories that make people feel inspired and think and mainly giving people the tools and the skills and the inspiration to reignite their own agency. To not wait around for something else to make a change in their world in any community, make a change in their lives, make a change in their communities. And so I'm starting a podcast that I would love to have you on, Mike, and Chuck come along for this, you guys together. It's just gonna be helping people to believe in the possibility of a better future and exposing them to the voices and the people who are already making that happen. Right? Because we need to see to believe. How are you going to make it non earnest? How are you going to make it not so sickeningly sweet that my teeth are gonna start hurting again. Exactly. This is my Achilles heel. I wanna make it feel. The tone of the show is it's always a Trojan horse because those are the horses that get through the gate. Right? And so this is gonna be wrapped up in it's gonna be playful and goofy and it'll be self deprecating, it'll be entertaining, and then within it, you're gonna walk right in. Well, excuse me. But you know what happens after the Trojan horse gets through the but you know what happens after the Trojan horse gets through the gates. Right? Okay. Sorry. So the horse is something you need to go to the store here. You understand men crawl out of the belly of the horse and murder and rape everyone in the walls. Everyone. So that's where I So that's where I intercept. I take these men I doused me sunshine. I twist off their skulls. I put in someone with a beating heart. They come in there. And you end up feeling like well shit. I'm motivated to do something nice today because I already have it in me. It's really a fan to fan people sort of dormant, resilience, and optimism. Because optimism is a it's a strategic way to live. You're living better for you to hope and feel like you have the power to actually make an impact. Right? It's not a naive choice. I would argue it's a leadership quality. In your own self, right, to be able to to say I have no idea how it's gonna turn out. But if I have a binary choice, good or bad gonna go towards the good and I'm gonna keep my eyes on the possibility. And because I would say that our show, what made me feel like this really is more than just a moment in time. It's that it ignited something we all know. Right? Whatever faith you are, whatever organizations you're part of, when you tap into the power of service and you tap into really how good that feels for you, how unbeknownst believably good. It feels it's not a selfless act. It's a selfish act in a beautiful way. Right? It feels so damn good. To feel like you can make a difference and to just even, you know, sharing generosity of your spirit, whatever it is. But I was shocked over this year to realize how many people just felt so powerless in that and really kind of delegated their power and gave it away and were waiting on either the government or larger industry or something to make a change in their lives and to after all these people that we've talked with and know intimately on RTF, I realized that one thing that they all have is they have a resilient optimism to get stuff done. They believe that they can make it happen. Well, why are we accepting something like this? What are the things we can do versus just lamenting and stirring up all that toxin inside? So You're an optimism activist. I am an optimism activist. I actually actually That's exactly what you're saying. I actually own that trademark. From four years ago. Shut Yeah. Really? Yes. I just infringed on your IP with a compliments. But, please, it's my lawyer will be contacting yours. Anybody. No. You know, good luck with any other lawyers. Good luck with that. I enjoyed that. Never I would surrender before. I would just You that I wanna yeah. Maybe not wanna mess with the Irish hammer. And I love your I love your lawyer. So that's another conflicting quality, but that's going to come into that that's another conflicting quality that that's gonna come into that dynamic. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it weren't for her because, again, it was her suggestion that got the BTS camera on the set It was that camera that got me on set. And here we said, the itch, the Chafing. That's the thing I wanna leave you with. That's the way to take the piss out of this. That's the way to keep a feel good show from turning into a lecture or a polemic or something that hurts your teeth. Just remember that sooner or later, something's going to itch probably in an uncomfortable place a private place, and you're gonna have to scratch it. And you're probably gonna get caught scratching it. Just like you farted in the SUV that goes with me. It's gonna happen. And one day, the itching is going to go to Chafing, and then you're gonna come back and you're gonna say, tell me more about the blue star Ointment. I think that's a good place to leave this. That's really what the world needs. Is ointment. We did boost. Do you know what this is? I don't. I don't. Chuck, get her for Christmas. Get my Jewish friend for Christmas a tin of blue star ointment. In fact, when we're done, Google it, you can probably find an old ad for it, but it literally it's a cream you rubbed on the parts of your body that might be itching or chafing. But it's also good. For things like psoriasis, ringworm, there's a long list of things that they have on the commercial. But the one that really stuck with me over the years was Tethr. Tethr, TETERTER. What is is this? I'm still not sure. It's not good. It's not something you want. It's a skin condition. It could be a form of ringworm. But it's just one of the many things the blue star ointment who is not a sponsor of this podcast, by the way, maybe they should. Chuck, making the I like you to do I like you to reach out to Bluestart Ointment. I've got a sponsorship deal and then get Sarah some of the product because the itching the chafing, the ringworm, and the Tethr. Google Tethr, Chuck, right now, while we're Chaffing, I wanna understand what it is because I literally saw the ad for this last night. And it says it cured Tethr, which I think can happen. I think Three t's, three or four t's? Yes. Three teas altogether. A skin disease in humans or animals causing itching or pus killer patches. Such as eczema. There it is. There it is. Right. I would also argue there's no more appropriate present to give to your Jewish friends than a tin called blue star. I think that maybe we may have invented that. Right? I guess. Look, typically, as Chuck has seen this happen now countless times. I talk to my guests until somehow we forest gump our way into a place where it all comes back together. And sometimes it takes a long time, Sarah. I love it. But here I think we did it. This episode is really about the idea that returning the favor was the blue star appointment that our country needed at the time. And right now, when I look around this great land, I see itching, I see shaping. I see Ringworm. Tethr. Tethr. I see Tethr. But I also see my friend Sarah armed with blue star ointment running out there among the grade on washed, smearing this miracle cream all over their pustules, and making life a little better. That's the feel good stuff that I wanna leave the listeners of this podcast with you armed with blue star wait and Thank you, my friend. House with six to nine Jews. Okay. Yeah. And then he give it a moment. Oh, that's That's beautiful. Anything else you wanna plug before we go out there and go crazy with the blue star? No. That's it. Look out for possible future podcasts. We'll get our friend Mike on this and our friend Chuck. Just Chuck. Just complete everything. And keep looking out and pitch us some shows. We're hungry. We're chafing. We're we're tethered up and we wanna go Oh, okay. Alright. I don't think I don't think you're using that word the way it's supposed to be used actually. Tethered up So, Sarah, if people wanna follow you or or reach out to you with something, how many of you, why wouldn't they? Please, I'm also very Aside from the eczema, the savorya, the ringworm, the psoriasis. She's really lovely. She's a lovely person. I've also got the killer. Contagious. And Tiduciary optimistic. You can find me on social media. You can find me at sarah Y0URGR au, sarah with an h. And then you can write to me on sarahyourgirl dot com, and I love getting emails on there. She really does do She really does. I do. Creepier the better, guys. She really enjoys the creepy ones. I have a great special folder for those I have a great special holder for those. I'm here with blue star, to the blue star point, but -- Gotcha. -- protective seal. We're all sort of stumbling back into the waking life, we're gonna need more tools and more support than ever, more things to hold onto and more mirrors of our better possibilities and our better natures. Speaking of tools, one quick pro tip just to leave you with as you embark upon this whole podcast thing. Get a microphone that works. You can expect far better audio quality than this. You can expect. There's only one way to go, hon. There's only one way to go. Yeah. Yeah. Start with a mic that works. After that, it's very clear. It's gonna explode. Great suggestion. Great. Alright, sweetie. I love you. Thank you for making time. This was really for the fans of returning the favor. I know they're still out there. Hope springs eternal. Yeah. Especially when you're chatting with the copy written owner of the optimism activists. So something to keep in mind, if you don't wanna get sued, you might wanna lay off that turn of phrase. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you, Sarah. Bye, guys. See you all next week. Great. Bye.