0:00

On Friday, a judge in New York City said

0:02

Donald Trump had to pay $355 million plus interest

0:08

for repeatedly manipulating the value of

0:10

his assets. On Saturday, Donald Trump

0:12

launched a new sneaker line. Coincidence?

0:16

You be the judge. And

0:19

we're going to remember the young people and

0:22

we're going to remember sneaker con, you

0:24

know that. Some people

0:26

think he's trying to win votes with

0:28

the never surrender high tops and the

0:30

POTUS 45 whiteness. This

0:34

is connecting with black America because they

0:36

love sneakers or interest sneakers. They love

0:38

the, you know, there's a big deal

0:40

certainly in the inner city. We'll take

0:42

your word for it Fox News. They

0:44

are definitely a collectible item. What's clear

0:46

is the former president needs money, lots

0:48

of money. And on today's explain, we're

0:50

going to remind you why and talk

0:53

about the implications for Americans and the

0:55

rest of the world. That's the real deal.

0:59

That's the real deal.

1:06

In 1937, two researchers had a

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kind of dangerous idea. So

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they figured the perfect place to test it out

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was in an elementary school on kids

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idea was air would go through these things

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week on unexplainable, could a century

1:29

old hunch about ultraviolet light save

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us from respiratory disease? And

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if so, what's the catch? Listen

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to unexplainable new episodes every Wednesday.

1:40

Is living in the United States bad for the health

1:42

of black Americans? When black immigrants

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come to United States, their health

1:47

status is on par with white

1:49

Americans. But what happens is after

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one to two generations, their

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health status actually declines to that

1:56

of black Americans. ages

2:00

black people taught is not just

2:02

me on the weekends. New episodes

2:04

every Wednesday. Bink,

2:10

bink, bink, bum, bum, bum,

2:12

bum, bink. Thanks,

2:15

Blaine. Sean Ramos-Virme here with reporter Andrea Bernstein,

2:17

who was sitting in the same courtroom as

2:19

the former president for his civil fraud trial

2:21

in New York, which must have been totally

2:24

exciting, right? I mean, it

2:28

was excruciatingly boring.

2:32

One of the things that was so interesting

2:34

to me is Trump came 10 times to

2:36

this business fraud trial. That

2:39

meant that he was sitting every day in the courtroom

2:41

from 10 until about 1 and 2.15 until about 4.30

2:43

watching, as

2:46

lawyers from the attorney general's office said,

2:48

things like, let me direct your attention

2:51

to cell number 168

2:53

on sheet G of this

2:55

spreadsheet. Is that your notation? And

2:59

reporters took to bringing binoculars to the

3:01

courtroom so that they could read these

3:03

spreadsheets. Absolutely. That was a pro tip.

3:06

So there was a lot of that. And because

3:09

there was no jury in this case, sometimes it

3:11

was really confusing to figure out, like, what was

3:13

it they wanted to get out of this witness?

3:15

What was it they wanted to learn? But

3:18

they put in this torrent of documents.

3:20

And we'll take one witness, say, for

3:23

example, the former president's daughter,

3:25

Ivanka Trump. Ivanka Trump was not

3:27

a defendant in this case. And a

3:29

lot of the sort of reviews of her

3:31

testimony is, oh, she was so disciplined. She

3:34

kept her cool, all

3:37

of which was true. But while

3:39

she was testifying, the attorney

3:42

general's office kept saying to her, do you recognize this

3:44

document? Is that your email? And she would say yes.

3:47

And these emails were

3:49

central to the case, because

3:52

she arranged these very, very

3:54

low interest rate loans from

3:56

Deutsche Bank. There was all

3:59

the documentation. The regular

4:01

banks wanted to charge her family maybe

4:03

in the low double digits of interest.

4:06

The interest rate they got was 2, 3%. So

4:09

there's a huge difference there, and that is a

4:12

lot of what the money

4:14

that the Trumps have to pay back to New York is,

4:16

is the difference in the interest rates. There

4:18

in Ivanka Trump's email, it's all laid out how

4:21

she went to the commercial real estate division,

4:23

she tried to get the loan, they didn't

4:25

like the number, so they went to this

4:28

other division and got this way lower rate

4:30

that no one else could get, and to

4:32

get it, they had to

4:34

attest to Donald Trump's statements of values

4:37

that we now know were completely fraudulent. So

4:39

a lot of granular detail from the

4:41

Attorney General in New York, how does

4:44

the former President's defense team defend

4:46

him? So one of

4:49

their big defenses is, no one was hurt

4:51

here. Deutsche Bank wanted us as a customer.

4:53

They were willing to give us these incredibly

4:55

low rates because it was

4:57

good for them. They benefited. There was

4:59

no victim. That was one.

5:02

Another one was, our accountants figured

5:04

it out, our employees figured it

5:07

out, we left it to them, we trusted

5:09

them. And then

5:11

there was like, nobody really

5:13

relied on these statements, and

5:16

also it didn't make a difference. Okay,

5:19

so Trump's legal defense team essentially says,

5:22

show us a victim, everyone got paid,

5:24

this was good for everyone, but the

5:26

judge ultimately decides

5:29

that's not the case. Well, the

5:31

law decides it, right? I

5:34

mean, this law, 6-6-12, was a very powerful

5:36

law in New York. And it was

5:38

written in the middle of

5:40

the last century with the idea that if

5:42

you have a fraudulent marketplace,

5:45

you corrupt the business market in New York.

5:47

And it is the Attorney General's job to

5:49

defend against that and to make sure that

5:52

people don't do this as a course of

5:54

business, no matter who

5:56

the victims are, because the idea is that

5:58

hurts all business in New York. today

6:01

the court once again ruled

6:03

in our favor and in

6:05

favor of every hard-working American who

6:07

plays by the rules Donald

6:10

Trump and the other defendants were ordered to pay 463.9

6:14

million dollars that

6:18

represents 363.9

6:21

million dollars in disgorgement plus

6:25

100 million dollars in interest which

6:27

will continue to increase every

6:30

single day Until

6:32

it is paid. Where does that

6:34

number come from Andrea? It's big. Okay,

6:37

so let me introduce a concept Which

6:40

I know today explained listeners can

6:42

handle which is called disgorgement, right?

6:44

It's not actually a fine Oh what

6:48

the law says is if you Have

6:52

these ill-gotten games based on the fact that

6:54

you lied over and over and over again.

6:56

You have to pay a back Donald

6:59

Trump may have authored the art of the

7:01

deal But he perfected

7:03

the art of the steel So

7:06

a very big portion of

7:08

the money that Trump has to pay comes

7:11

from The cash that

7:13

he kept by keeping his

7:15

interest rates so low So, you know if

7:17

you have to pay 12% interest versus 3%

7:20

interest hypothetically, those are not

7:22

the actual numbers But for

7:24

example, you save a lot of money in

7:27

this case The difference in the

7:29

interest was about a hundred and seventy million dollars. So

7:31

that is considered an ill-gotten gain got to pay it

7:34

back then the

7:36

judge said well Because they had all

7:39

this extra cash that they weren't entitled to They

7:41

were able to pour money into a number

7:44

of properties to in particular

7:46

the Trump International Hotel in Washington

7:48

DC and the Ferrypoint Golf

7:50

Course, which is in Bronx, New York

7:53

They were able to pour so much money because they

7:55

had all this extra cash and then sell it and

7:57

make even more money So All of

7:59

that comes. Back to so that's how they get

8:01

to the Three Fifty Five. Okay,

8:04

And this is on top of the a three

8:06

point three million he already has to pay. it's

8:08

eg, and care. Totally separate case,

8:10

correct in the eg, in carol.

8:12

Case the jury awarded heard

8:15

something like sixty million dollars

8:17

more. Than. Her lawyers were

8:20

asking for in this latest case

8:22

because of disgorgement defined as three

8:24

hundred fifty five million big numbers.

8:27

Do you think he might be

8:29

getting hit harder in either case,

8:31

then say oh less famous former

8:34

president New York City civilian would.

8:36

Solicit. Didn't care of someone of

8:39

things that was so interesting and

8:41

eat. And as right before the

8:43

plaintiffs wrapped up their case, they

8:45

played a video deposition of Trump

8:47

from the business fraud trial. And

8:50

into this is franchise. And says

8:52

I have four hundred nine hours

8:54

and cash. That is very unusual

8:56

for developers. developers don't usually have

8:59

that much cash. Marla. Dell

9:01

is worth one point five million. Doral.

9:03

Dove courses were two point five billion.

9:06

Does he take the rally? the doral could

9:08

be was. So. In a opinion

9:10

by itself that there's. Those

9:12

valuations have been found to be

9:15

fraudulent by a judge and glance,

9:17

but the German know that. Race:

9:20

So the jury is.

9:23

Watching. This and Eating Carols

9:26

lawyers say to the jury.

9:29

Trump. Says he has a lot of money. Please.

9:31

Have him pay a penalty that will

9:34

get him to stop. Him: you.

9:36

Determine how much that amount is. So.

9:39

In that case, they

9:41

asked. The. Jury for.

9:44

An amount of money in damages

9:46

to rehabilitate her reputation. But. then

9:49

they said give us and punitive damages you

9:51

figure out this guy says he has billions

9:53

of dollars you use an amount that will

9:55

make him stop and that's how they came

9:57

up with the sixty five million plus the

9:59

eight million for her to

10:02

repair her reputation. Does

10:05

Trump have to hand over this nearly

10:07

half a billion dollars like tomorrow? When

10:09

does he actually have to pay? The

10:12

355 million doesn't include the

10:15

pre-judgment interest, and the Attorney General's office has said

10:17

it will be upwards of $450 million when you

10:19

put that all in. Now,

10:23

Trump is appealing. They say the

10:25

verdict is wrong. As past

10:27

is prologue, they will take

10:30

every opportunity to appeal this case. It can

10:32

be appealed first to the first

10:34

level of New York Appeals Court, which is called

10:36

the First Department, then to

10:38

the highest court, which is called the Court of

10:40

Appeals, and in most cases that

10:43

would be the final word. However,

10:45

being Trump, they may argue that there's

10:47

a federal issue involved, so it would

10:49

theoretically go to the U.S. Supreme Court. So

10:53

all of that has to happen before the money

10:55

is finally transferred to New York

10:57

State, but there

11:00

is talk about putting up a

11:02

bond, putting the money in escrow.

11:05

He can't just go

11:07

off and say, well, I'm not going to pay it until

11:10

we're done. That isn't the way the law works. Maybe

11:12

the half a billion dollar question is, will he

11:14

still have to pay if he wins

11:17

the election later this year? Assuming

11:19

he loses all his legal appeals,

11:21

the answer is yes. I

11:24

wouldn't be surprised if the case is

11:26

not resolved, and were he to win

11:28

the election to hear his lawyers make

11:30

an argument that even to address this

11:32

issue is too distracting for the president.

11:34

Now, there is Supreme

11:36

Court law in Bill Clinton and

11:39

Paula Jones that certain aspects of a civil

11:41

suit can continue, and this is a civil

11:43

suit. So I

11:46

hate to say this

11:48

because it's so overused in this context,

11:50

but it's uncharted waters. In

11:52

theory, yes. In theory, the judgment

11:54

has been made. If Trump loses all his appeals, he has

11:56

to pay the money. He has to

11:58

find the money now. to guarantee that

12:00

he will be able to pay it in the event

12:03

he loses all his appeals. But

12:05

what would happen would he try to argue that?

12:08

If past is prologue, it's not another question.

12:16

Andrea Bernstein, she's the host of a

12:18

podcast called We Don't Talk About Leonard,

12:20

about the American judiciary's shift rightward. Find

12:23

it wherever you listen. She's also the

12:25

author of American Oligarchs about the Trumps

12:27

and the Kushner's. Find it wherever you

12:30

read. Donald

12:33

Trump owes about half a billion

12:35

dollars after two unfavorable rulings. Sounds

12:38

like a Donald Trump problem, right?

12:40

When we're back into the explained,

12:42

Vox's policy correspondent Abdullah Fayyad says

12:45

it's actually everybody's problem. Support

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16:23

we're back and Vox's Abdullah Fayyad is

16:25

here to tell us why Donald Trump's

16:28

half a billy in legal debt is

16:30

everybody's problem. It's everybody's problem

16:32

because he's running for president of the

16:34

United States. And what it

16:36

generally means when any candidate running for

16:39

public office, let alone the presidency, when

16:41

they're in debt, is that there

16:43

can be a lot of leverage used against them

16:45

when they're in office by their creditors. In

16:48

this particular case, it's not just a

16:50

matter of Trump being in debt, it's

16:52

a matter of him potentially being cash

16:55

strapped, you know, facing nearly

16:57

half a billion dollars in civil

16:59

damages from just two civil lawsuits

17:01

alone. And being on the

17:03

hook for that money while he's running for

17:06

office again means that any

17:08

donor, any special interest group, any

17:10

bank, any foreign government that's

17:12

looking to curry favor in a potential

17:14

second Trump term could swoop in and

17:17

help bail him out. It

17:19

doesn't necessarily mean it would be

17:21

kind of an explicit quid pro

17:23

quo. I want no quid pro

17:25

quo. But this is exactly how

17:27

money and politics works. You

17:30

know, we see it for every candidate when it

17:32

comes to fundraising for their campaign. In

17:34

Trump's case, it's kind of fundraising for

17:37

his own kind of survival as a

17:39

businessman. And a lot of people can

17:41

step in and essentially advance their interest

17:43

in their second term by having that

17:46

relationship with him and having

17:48

that leverage over him potentially as his creditors.

17:50

But I gotta ask, we don't ever

17:53

really know how rich, how

17:55

broke Donald Trump is, but

17:57

we know he owns some

17:59

serious real estate. estate, couldn't he just

18:01

sell a building or two, a

18:03

tower or a rosy,

18:06

gaudy mansion in Florida or something

18:08

and be done with all of

18:10

these debts? He could.

18:12

And I think what should be clear

18:14

to most people is that even after

18:16

all of this, Trump is still going

18:18

to be a rich man. The question

18:20

is just how much cash he has

18:23

on hand to pay these civil damages

18:25

right now. So he's on the hook

18:27

for over $450 million. That's

18:30

due soon. Even if he appeals, he has

18:32

to front a considerable amount of money, potentially

18:35

the entire amount and even some interest while

18:38

that appeals process plays out. And the question is

18:40

where he's going to come up with that cash.

18:45

Based on his own accounting last April in

18:47

a deposition, he mentioned that he had $400

18:50

million in cash, which is a lot

18:52

of money even for a billionaire in

18:54

cash. But that's still not enough to

18:56

cover these damages, which means that yes,

18:59

he will have to liquidate some of

19:01

his assets. For him, that's an uncomfortable

19:03

thing to do because A, it's

19:06

a big part of his personal identity. It's

19:08

part of his political identity. And it kind

19:11

of shows that he's in a lot of

19:13

trouble. It kind of shows the kind

19:15

of a weakness on his part that he

19:17

really does not like to do on the

19:20

public stage. And so will he survive this

19:22

as an individual being able to pay his

19:24

bond? Of course he can. His net worth

19:26

is estimated somewhere between $2 and

19:29

$3 billion, though obviously it's very opaque and

19:31

we actually know very little about his finances.

19:34

But it's still going to do a good

19:36

amount of damage both politically, but also in

19:38

the short term financially. I mean, the fact

19:40

that he would have to liquidate some of

19:42

his assets means that his business

19:44

is going to suffer. He's going to lose

19:47

some of his assets in the short

19:49

term. And that actually could deal a

19:51

blow to his businesses, which is by

19:53

design. This is what these penalties are

19:55

supposed to do. They're partly supposed to

19:58

be punitive. And so that's why There's

20:00

such a high sum. It's because he has such

20:02

a high net worth Okay,

20:05

so you're saying basically yes, he

20:07

could sell his assets But he

20:09

probably won't want to and that's

20:11

why we should be concerned not

20:14

exactly that It's just a matter of

20:16

you know him having to front so

20:18

much money in the short term That

20:20

even if he does liquidate some of

20:22

his assets in order to maintain His

20:25

finances he's probably going to have to take

20:27

on more debt and take on more loans

20:30

And you know just for context when he was

20:32

running for reelection in 2020 He

20:35

was per the New York Times reporting on his tax

20:37

returns which were leaked before the election in 2020 He

20:40

was running with about 400 million

20:42

dollars in debt most of

20:44

which was coming due in the next four years So

20:47

had he won a second term in 2020? Creditors

20:50

as the New York Times put it

20:52

back Then would have been put in

20:54

the unprecedented position of potentially having to

20:56

foreclose on a sitting president of the

20:58

United States That's never really happened before

21:00

we might be facing a similar situation

21:03

Now you know if he has to sell

21:05

some of the assets He's still going to

21:07

have to take on more loans in order

21:10

to fund his businesses And you know the

21:12

fact that his business will be dealt

21:14

a blow through these civil damages He

21:17

is going to have to likely take

21:19

on more loans And that just puts

21:21

him in a bad situation with creditors

21:23

Even if they are big creditors big

21:25

major financial institutions that are quote-unquote trustworthy

21:29

But you know it's still kind of

21:31

a serious liability for any candidate to

21:33

just have that much amount of debt

21:35

in public And just one more thing

21:37

on this is you know federal government

21:39

employees generally are graded on certain criteria

21:42

To see whether or not they can qualify for

21:44

security clearance Having an enormous amount

21:46

of debt is one thing

21:48

that's used against giving people security

21:51

clearance because it's Primarily seen as

21:53

a tool that can be used

21:55

to target people for bribery and

21:58

things of that nature just

22:00

kind of improper conduct while in office. So that's

22:02

kind of a window into the ethics problems that

22:04

could come up should he win a second term.

22:07

The timing here is kind of interesting because of

22:09

course the president is in the midst of

22:13

raising a war chest to go

22:15

up against Joe Biden. How's that going for

22:17

him? Well, it's actually not going well at

22:20

all. There was a report in Axios with

22:22

Biden having much more cash on hand, the

22:24

Biden reelection campaign having much more cash. I

22:27

think they had over $130 million cash on hand compared

22:29

to Trump's $33 million cash on hand at the beginning

22:35

of the year. And the RNC,

22:37

the Republican National Committee, only had $8

22:39

million cash on hand. So comparing

22:43

it to Joe Biden, he's actually not

22:45

doing well at all. That

22:47

said, it's still early. It's still

22:49

the primaries technically, and he

22:51

has a lot of time to make up that

22:54

gap. But part of

22:56

Trump's problem going into the general

22:58

election is that a lot

23:00

of the campaign money has been used

23:02

to cover his legal expenses. And

23:05

actually, one of his political action

23:07

committees, the Save America PAC, has

23:10

spent over 80% of the

23:12

cash it raised on Trump's legal

23:14

fees. And in the last year, it was

23:16

reported that Trump spent over $50 million in

23:18

campaign cash

23:20

on legal expenses alone. So

23:23

going into the general election where they're going

23:26

to have to spend money on television ads,

23:28

on ground operations, he's

23:30

not in good financial shape

23:32

for a conventional candidate. The caveat

23:34

here is that Trump and

23:36

his following are unconventional in

23:38

American politics. And we

23:41

do know that he is very

23:43

capable of turning out voters. So

23:45

he might not need that conventional

23:47

campaign spending that people generally do

23:50

in a general election. But from

23:53

just a campaign finance standpoint, this

23:55

certainly hurts him a lot. You

23:58

say this This

24:00

is everyone's problem, but it's

24:03

worth remembering here that Trump's base doesn't

24:05

really think all of this is a

24:07

problem. They're super stoked to vote for

24:09

this guy, and it looks like all

24:11

of his legal troubles actually help him

24:13

with the Republican base. What

24:17

should we make of that problem? I mean,

24:19

that's one of his gifts as

24:21

a campaigner and as a politician,

24:23

is how he's able to galvanize

24:25

his support and make people look

24:27

the other way when he has

24:30

all of these ethical problems. That's

24:33

certainly true for his supporters, and you see how

24:35

willing they are to help him through this. Actually,

24:38

donating to his campaign every time he

24:41

uses one of these legal

24:43

cases against him and drumming up support from his

24:45

base by getting small dollar donations by saying that

24:47

this is a witch hunt, that they're coming after

24:49

him because they want to come after his supporters.

24:52

You have people paying essentially

24:55

to protect a billionaire who can more

24:57

than afford to pay for himself. So

24:59

this is just part of the cult

25:01

of Trump. It's just kind of hard

25:03

to overcome. But

25:06

the reality is that he has

25:08

a lot of supporters, people who

25:10

vote for him, who do see

25:12

flaws in him, who eventually

25:14

can be swayed. They might be the minority

25:16

of his voters. They're certainly not the base,

25:19

but people who turn out in elections,

25:21

there are people who make up their

25:23

mind right at the end. At some

25:25

point, and this is all speculation, but

25:27

there can be enough baggage on somebody

25:29

that makes somebody feel a little too

25:31

queasy when they go into the voting

25:34

booth. I think overall,

25:36

you see this in polls that

25:38

people do think Trump should be

25:40

held accountable for crimes he committed.

25:45

But obviously it's a very partisan thing

25:47

going into the general election, and

25:49

I think that's the danger here. He's

25:52

able to use that kind

25:54

of support to undermine the

25:56

validity of these cases against

25:58

him. that they're

26:00

a witch hunt, he's undermining kind

26:02

of, you know, his actual accountability,

26:04

that it's, you know, undeserved, that

26:06

he thinks that he's making

26:09

people believe that these really are just

26:11

witch hunts. When in reality, Trump has evaded

26:13

accountability his entire life. And this is

26:15

really just the first time he's actually been

26:17

held accountable on a deserved scale for kind

26:19

of the fraud that he's engaged in throughout

26:22

his business career. Abdullah

26:27

Fayad Vox. Abdullah wrote, Trump is

26:29

suddenly in need of a lot

26:31

of cash. That's everyone's problem. You

26:33

can read it at vox.com. Today's

26:35

episode was produced by Amanda Llewellyn

26:37

and Abhishek Artsy. It was edited

26:39

by Matthew Collett, fact-checked by Laura

26:41

Bullard, and engineered by

26:44

David Herman. It's today explained.