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Quick favor. Could you hit the subscribe

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button? It really helps get the show out

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there so that more people can be inspired

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by the personal growth that our guests are talking

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about and take those lessons into their

0:10

own lives. Welcome

0:14

to wellness with Ella, the deliciously

0:16

Ella Podcast. This is a podcast

0:18

that aims to inspire you, to empower

0:20

you, to leave you feeling uplifted. And

0:23

each week, I want to share what wellness

0:26

really looks like. As we unpack

0:28

the simple tools that have helped each one

0:30

of our guests, turn a negative, into

0:32

a positive, and unlock true

0:34

happiness and genuine health And

0:37

by health, I don't mean how they look.

0:39

I mean their energy, their excitement, their

0:41

fulfillment. The question is,

0:43

how can we all get more from life? So

0:48

today's guest, I've been wanting to have in the

0:50

show for about six months. I

0:52

read her book last summer and her

0:55

story and facets of what she talked about

0:58

deeply resonated with me. The

1:00

focus of today is really on the fact that

1:03

First of all, the solutions are always

1:05

internal. They're not external. You can

1:07

read every single self help book out there,

1:09

but unless you really want to make a change.

1:12

Is unlikely anything will happen. And

1:14

also this idea that

1:16

fundamentally, again, are

1:18

self worth our self esteem, our

1:21

self awareness, our propensity

1:23

for self love are really

1:26

what underpins genuine health

1:28

If you're not able to decaf

1:30

to yourself and feel worthy of looking after

1:32

yourself, it's very difficult to

1:34

make the changes even when you know what changes

1:37

may help you. So

1:39

Angela Scanlon is our guest.

1:41

She's a presenter and broadcast working

1:44

on things like the BBC's One Show,

1:47

and her whole journey started

1:50

in her early twenties just as her career

1:52

was taking off but the catalyst was the birth

1:54

of her first daughter, which is an unusual

1:56

catalyst think in lots of ways. But

1:58

looking back at the conversation, I think that's

2:00

one of the most roar and vulnerable

2:03

and genuine conversations. I've ever had

2:05

the privilege of having on this show about

2:07

how these magic fairy

2:09

tale moments can sometimes put so

2:11

much expectation and pressure on ourselves

2:13

that we feel like a failure.

2:16

So I really appreciate our vulnerability,

2:19

our bravery, up honesty. I hope

2:21

there's a lot that resonates for you

2:23

in this episode. So let's

2:25

get into it. Andrew,

2:29

welcome to the show. Thank you for having

2:31

me. I'm excited to be here. I've been

2:33

waiting, what, six months we've

2:36

first talked about this. Yeah. As I first read your book

2:38

then and knew we had a lot to talk

2:40

about, so it's exciting to be here.

2:43

I wondered if we could start by just

2:45

you're introducing yourself and I don't

2:48

mean in terms of like a professional bio,

2:50

lots of people will know

2:51

you, you know, is a very successful woman,

2:53

you know, got your own business, an amazing career

2:56

in broadcasting. You got your brilliant

2:58

podcast. But who who's Angela?

3:01

Oh, god. This is the worst

3:03

question you could ask me. This is

3:05

the question that actually turned me,

3:07

like, threw me into a tailspin

3:10

a number of years ago. But when

3:12

I went to my agency and we were having

3:14

like, oh, what are we doing for the year? Kind of

3:16

chat. Am I right about this? Enjoy

3:18

writer as one of those moments where I thought,

3:20

oh, something is is kind of

3:22

off because it was like who so, you know,

3:25

who who are you? Who do who do you wanna

3:27

be? And I I really, really struggled

3:30

with finding an answer to that and

3:32

distilling that down. didn't know what I identified

3:35

as. I didn't know. Who I what

3:37

I liked even. And that sounds like a really

3:40

simple thing, but I think a lot of people will relate

3:42

to maybe tweaking and

3:44

changing their behavior and their

3:46

way of being in their likes and their dislikes based

3:49

on the audience. And I say that, you know, in

3:51

not in terms of a TV audience

3:53

necessarily, but based on who you're talking

3:55

to in any given day, whether that's a parent or

3:58

a friend or an office colleague, And

4:00

so I had become really, really good at

4:02

swapping and changing out those kind

4:04

of faces if you like. And then when I

4:06

was asked that really simple

4:09

question. Who are you? I had

4:11

no answer for that. I felt really deeply

4:14

kind of wounded

4:16

really by by not being able to answer

4:19

that question. So

4:21

now, I

4:23

mean, I'm a mom, which

4:26

I used to really bork when people identified

4:28

as that. I don't know why. I was like, it

4:30

felt really reductive to me. But

4:32

I feel now that actually that role

4:35

is something I have grown

4:37

into maybe and that is deeply

4:40

fulfilling for me in a way that I possibly

4:43

didn't think would

4:46

be. At a point. I'm

4:48

a wife. I'm

4:50

a sister owned daughter. Like, all of

4:52

those things, but ultimately I'm

4:54

a kind of slightly messy,

4:57

fumbling human who

4:59

is trying to grow,

5:02

sometimes publicly, sometimes privately,

5:04

I'm a kind of interverted weirdo

5:07

who's on a stage. So,

5:11

yeah, that's a bit of a a bag full.

5:13

But, yeah, that's kind of where I'm

5:15

at. As you said, I think

5:17

we can all deeply relate to that of

5:19

that sense of not

5:21

really knowing who we are or who we want

5:23

to be and being a bit of a chameleon

5:25

-- Yeah. -- because it's easier in lots

5:27

of ways than having that quite tricky

5:29

conversation with ourselves. And before

5:32

we get into that experience

5:34

and kind of how you came,

5:37

not out the other side, but started to form a

5:39

different pathway, How are you doing today?

5:41

I'm good

5:42

today, Ashley. Yeah. I've

5:44

got I haven't had much sleep. I've

5:47

got a teething baby and so she was

5:49

up five AM. But actually,

5:51

I'm I'm gods. Yeah.

5:53

And I always say that as in, like,

5:56

with an an element of surprise. Like

5:58

I said, I'm gods. You know,

6:00

checking over my shoulder. But, yeah,

6:02

I'm I'm I'm solid, which is a

6:04

word that I didn't think was very sexy up until

6:06

recently, but actually, that kind of sense

6:08

of being grounded, that sense

6:10

of being, yeah, of some sort

6:12

of stillness, I think, is is something that's

6:14

really comforting and valuable to me now

6:17

instead of

6:18

boring, which is what I thought it was.

6:20

Yeah. I'd say it's probably my ultimate goal

6:22

now. She is feeling sort of solid

6:24

in the sense of contented and grounded

6:26

versus Excited.

6:29

Yeah. Highs and lows.

6:30

Yeah. Because there's a lot about your story that I

6:32

relate to you very, very heavily, and I think

6:35

lot of people who ride the highs and lows

6:37

and and struggle little bit with it.

6:39

And so as I said, I

6:41

bought Joy Ryder last year.

6:43

I actually realized we'd met a few years

6:45

before that at event in Ireland. But

6:47

didn't put two and two together for a little bit anyway.

6:50

I devoured the book. And I love

6:52

reading. So when I like something, it's

6:54

gone in, like, a day or two. Yeah. Addictive

6:56

personality.

6:57

Yeah. I hear And I was just very moved by it, as

6:59

I said, because I related to so much of it.

7:01

And I'd absolutely love to go through this

7:03

journey, and I'm always hesitant to use word journeys.

7:06

It sounds a bit cliche, but I think that is what

7:08

lots of us actually are on and this

7:11

idea of how do we move from a to b

7:13

and can we go back to the kind

7:15

of early days of your career?

7:18

For one for a better expression before you realized

7:20

something wasn't right in a

7:22

way, what were you chasing at

7:24

that point in your sort of late

7:26

teens, early twenties? So,

7:28

I mean, late teens early twenties, I

7:30

was absolutely lost,

7:33

I would say. I was a bit wild.

7:35

I had a lot of fun, but I think

7:38

there was a a real disconnect between

7:40

how I presented with

7:43

friends, with family outwardly and

7:45

how I was behind closed

7:47

doors if you like. And I think that I

7:49

really, really struggled. I didn't

7:51

know which one was real.

7:54

And that was very very difficult

7:56

because I didn't know whether I was faking this

7:58

and this, you know, the the outwards

8:01

facing person and

8:03

whether that kind of heavy heaviness

8:06

that I felt privately was

8:08

the real me, so to speak. Which

8:11

just didn't tally with who I was at

8:13

all or who I identified as as

8:15

being or maybe more so how

8:17

I believed it was acceptable to

8:20

be. Truthfully. I think

8:22

I was confused which was confusing

8:24

to people in hindsight because at the time

8:26

I appeared as very confident and foreign

8:29

I was always like and so. And

8:31

work wise for me, it took a long time for

8:33

me to kind of figure out where I was going. I

8:35

knew that I wanted to work for myself.

8:37

That was a non kind of non negotiable

8:40

for me really from quite early on.

8:42

I didn't want to do a normal job.

8:44

There was a rebelliousness in me and there was

8:46

kind of entrepreneurial spirit I think that I got

8:48

from my parents, that I I

8:51

wanted to build something for myself.

8:54

That took many different shapes

8:57

and forms as as time has has

8:59

gone on, but I definitely wanted to

9:01

do something different. And I had a real sense

9:04

that I was supposed to be doing something

9:06

kind of big. And I couldn't articulate

9:08

that, certainly not to anyone around me because it

9:10

seemed I don't know, frightening to

9:12

say it laid by the way, lads. I think I'm I

9:14

might be kind of a big deal. I

9:18

was like, riding things in books and I would

9:20

see people in magazines and things, I could

9:22

do that. Like, out of nowhere, there was no

9:24

basis for that belief. There was

9:26

no trajectory. There was no

9:28

connection, but I had this kind

9:31

of sense. Oh, I think I should be

9:33

there. How I was getting there was

9:35

I had no idea. And so I worked

9:38

in lots of different things. I set up my

9:40

own stalls selling handbags and

9:42

and jewelry. And then I

9:44

worked in personal shopping. So fashion was an

9:46

outlet for me even though I had studied business.

9:49

And then I got into TV

9:51

that way, so as like an expert on

9:53

TV talking with fashion people, you know, what

9:55

they wore to the Oscars and stuff like that.

9:58

And I was producing bits. Again, I didn't

10:00

have the terminology. I didn't understand what producing

10:03

a segment on a TV show was, but

10:05

I was booking models, and I was doing this on my

10:07

lunch break from personal shopping. And so I

10:09

was kind of there was a real

10:11

hustle in me the

10:13

first time I I did TV.

10:16

I remember thinking, oh, this

10:19

is it. Fashion had had started

10:21

to become a little bit tired for me. People,

10:23

you know, consistently asked me what they

10:25

should wear. I was like, honestly, couldn't give a

10:27

monkey's what you wear. Obviously,

10:30

my job was to style them, but actually it was

10:32

to connect with them and and make them, you

10:34

know, feel good about themselves. I suppose trends

10:36

were less of an interest to me, I

10:38

suppose. But when

10:41

I did TV, I

10:44

kind of I

10:46

felt unsettled and

10:48

excited and that sense

10:50

of it being alive and of anything potentially

10:53

happening was so thrilling

10:56

to me. And so it felt so

10:58

exciting and other worldy but also

11:01

completely natural. And I was like, oh,

11:03

this is actually what I've been kind

11:06

of looking for. And so

11:08

I made a really clear choice

11:11

to pursue TV. And

11:13

like I say, there was there was no connection. There

11:15

was no I didn't know anyone in in the business.

11:19

But I I was kind of into at

11:21

that point, vision boarding. I'd

11:23

started looking at rewiring my

11:25

mind about a bit visualizing things.

11:28

And I would visualize, like,

11:31

with real feeling, which is

11:33

obviously what you have to do. I say, obviously.

11:36

And I would be see myself interviewed

11:38

on on chachos. And

11:41

and things happened with, like,

11:43

wild speed. That it should have never

11:45

happened. And I maybe understand now

11:48

having explored all of those

11:50

things since but I

11:53

if I felt like I found something

11:56

that really fit for me and TELI, and

11:58

so went after that with Gusto.

12:01

And only in hindsight did I realize that

12:03

maybe all of the energy

12:05

was a little manic. I

12:09

mean, it worked. But it was a bit it was a

12:11

bit manic. It was a trans a transference

12:14

of, you know, some behaviors that were

12:16

unhealthy for me and eating disorder that I lived

12:18

with for fifteen years. I basically was like, oh,

12:20

I'm gonna just shift this to

12:23

work. And I'm like, when I do

12:25

things, I like to think I'm good at them.

12:27

And so I I mean, I went for

12:29

it. One of the things I'm quite fixated

12:31

on at the moment is this

12:33

contrast between what we see and

12:36

reality. Yeah. And I don't just mean that

12:38

with people that we might see in a more public

12:40

facing role. I mean that with our colleagues,

12:42

friends, peers, anyone

12:44

we know. But outwards

12:47

success, we've always been told

12:49

doesn't equal happiness, but I think it's just becoming

12:51

clearer and clearer that we look

12:53

at other people and they she

12:55

said, like, appear with a stone energy,

12:58

and they look fantastic, and they're clearly

13:00

good at their jobs and delivering. And we think,

13:03

I wish I could be like that person. I

13:05

wish I had that confidence. I wish

13:07

I had that drive. I wish

13:09

I had that career. Then

13:11

I would be really, really happy. And I know I've

13:13

been in that position a hundred percent. I'm

13:16

not naturally a confident person. I remember

13:18

that was my ultimate thing growing up.

13:20

Was all the really confident girls and looking

13:22

at them being

13:23

like, I wish I could just walk into

13:25

a room like that -- Yeah.

13:26

-- or I wish I would just have the courage to, like, make

13:28

a joke will stand out because I always wanted

13:30

to blend in. Mhmm. And I'm

13:32

really interested in that kind of as

13:35

you said at the beginning, this kind of push and pull

13:37

between what people saw in the out side, which

13:39

was very successful and

13:41

and

13:42

brilliant, but then what you felt on the inside, which

13:44

was you said it's kind of like a stone -- --

13:46

on you. You're right. Sometimes it's more

13:48

pronounced when you're in the public eye because there's

13:50

an idea and people project their ideas onto

13:52

you and also. Although I like

13:54

to think and when I meet people, they're like, oh, you're the

13:57

same as you are on Kelly, and I think I

13:59

didn't train as a TV presenter. I don't know

14:01

how you're supposed to stand. I'm not sure how you're

14:03

supposed to technically interview somebody.

14:06

I I'd show up and I talk

14:08

to people and I'm nosy and I'm

14:10

curious. And I like to think that that's probably

14:12

why I'm going at my job. Rather

14:15

than because I'm super polished, because I'm

14:17

nice. That's not how I am. But

14:19

I think, everyone, there's

14:22

a disconnect or there may maybe disconnect

14:24

is is too strong for for some people,

14:26

but there's certainly I

14:29

mean, social media is essentially

14:31

that version. Of an outward facing

14:34

persona for everybody. So everybody

14:37

has it to a degree. And I

14:39

think the work

14:41

and the job and the

14:44

I mean, what we're certainly, what I'm

14:46

striving for is to reconcile those

14:48

things. Is to have the lines much

14:51

more blurred. And so there

14:53

is performance, an element of performance.

14:57

When I do my chateau, I get get

14:59

in the zone. You're entertaining

15:01

a room full of people. You're navigating a sofa

15:03

full of famous people. And

15:05

so there's a it's different to how I am

15:07

slobbing around with my kids and my husband,

15:10

but the goal for me

15:12

is to figure out how those

15:15

two parts of me

15:17

merge and to be able to show either

15:19

or them or to or to maybe

15:22

become fully comfortable

15:25

with those bits of me being seen,

15:28

all of the spectrum rather than

15:30

just that

15:31

shiny, chat show version. Of

15:33

me.

15:34

So to become comfortable with that level

15:36

of vulnerability was the fact that

15:38

we all struggle, totally.

15:41

That we all struggle that we're I

15:43

mean, I put a massive amount

15:45

of pressure. And I think

15:47

perfectionism is this kind

15:49

of horards ways

15:51

that people, you know, if you're if you're that way

15:53

inclined, it becomes a thing

15:55

that prevents you from doing anything.

15:58

There is no room for mistakes, so there's no

16:00

room for growth. You kind of have all of

16:02

the ideas. You're able to criticize every beat

16:04

because you could do it better, but you're too afraid to

16:06

do anything because it won't be perfect. And it

16:08

can't You can't launch

16:10

anything fully formed. You can't arrive

16:13

fully formed. But I had this

16:15

level of expectation that if

16:17

I was supposed

16:20

to do a thing if I was meant to

16:22

do this thing that it should feel seamless,

16:25

that person. She does it and it looks

16:27

effortless. And so buying into

16:29

the fantasy that if

16:32

you're supposed to do something, it should

16:35

be done with with ease

16:37

that there is no struggle, that there is

16:39

no effort, that there's no fallen over, that there's

16:41

no fucking at all, that you everything

16:44

goes perfectly. And

16:46

it just became so so

16:48

strangling. It pulled the joy out of everything

16:50

I ever did because there was no room to

16:53

ask for help. There was no room to say, oh,

16:55

by the way, I am like pretty new

16:57

to this gig. I might need a

16:59

bit of a hand. But

17:02

being comfortable enough with myself.

17:05

And I mean, like, base confidence

17:07

because, like, I presented as confidence.

17:10

With the confidence to really know that

17:12

you deserve, to grow, and

17:14

that you will get better, and that

17:16

you're not supposed to show up.

17:17

Perfect. And when you were at that

17:19

point and you said you were looking around

17:21

a lot of other people and thinking, oh, she doesn't

17:24

seem to say or he doesn't seem to say.

17:26

Did you feel you were kind of, again, I just

17:28

think this is something people can

17:31

relate to so much, you know, my aim

17:33

is to show these universal challenges and

17:36

universal solutions, but I think whether

17:38

it's in TV or whether whatever

17:40

your job is or whatever you're doing every day, think

17:42

we all have that. Those moments in our

17:44

lives where we feel lost

17:47

and confused and we're achieving things, but it

17:49

doesn't marry up with how we feel inside and,

17:51

you know, we're presenting on the out side like we're

17:53

really happy and things are

17:54

great. Maybe you're presenting your relationships really

17:57

happy and you're scared to say, it's

17:59

not, I'm not happy. This isn't right

18:01

and it's it's a very daunting

18:04

moment, I think. Did you feel at this point

18:06

you were comparing yourself to these people around

18:08

you and being like, they can all do

18:10

it right. Why can't I do

18:13

this job and be really happy? Because I

18:15

certainly have had that a lot in my

18:18

life, and I'd say my career, you know, I've had

18:20

quite big chunks of my career where it says really

18:23

outwardly successful and

18:25

inwardly incredibly unhappy.

18:28

You know, my first book came out. It was

18:30

twenty three. I mean, it's a absolute baby.

18:33

And It was the fastest selling

18:35

debut ever. It's spent eight weeks

18:37

across every category on Amazon in number

18:39

one. And in retrospect, I'm not sure I realized

18:41

what it insane deal that

18:43

I mean, it was absurd. It was an absurd

18:46

accomplishment for a

18:48

baby. You know, I was just very, very young.

18:51

And I was

18:53

so unhappy the next six

18:55

months. I was so I'd no. I hadn't been

18:58

particularly happy up until that point. I'd never

19:00

had this of real self worth and self

19:02

confidence and self esteem. I didn't really

19:04

realize it at the time that that was the problem.

19:07

But in retrospect, it was definitely the problem.

19:10

And I think I thought that

19:12

would make life easier. I'd probably

19:14

always felt I had something

19:16

to prove to people because I don't even anyone

19:19

ever thought I'd be very successful and vow

19:21

very much in the shadow of my brother and my sisters.

19:24

And then my first book came out And by

19:26

all accounts, it was an extraordinary success.

19:29

But I spent the next six months with

19:31

such crippling anxiety that I felt

19:33

sometimes I can leave the

19:35

house, you know, I felt swallowed

19:37

and suffocated by it.

19:38

Yeah. But I wasn't talking about it.

19:40

Because I didn't know how to reconcile these two

19:43

parts. I mean, I remember my husband, this was

19:45

right around when we met, saying,

19:47

a bit fake, to be honest. You know, I think he

19:50

was gentler than that, but it's effectively

19:52

what he said, you know, you're showing this happy life.

19:54

But you're not really happy

19:56

at all and anyone from the outside

19:58

would say, wow, what an amazing moment.

20:01

And I'm just curious about how you

20:03

felt this sense of you're

20:05

achieving what you started to set

20:07

out to achieve, but you're looking at everyone

20:09

else around you thinking that they've got life

20:12

much better than you have

20:14

--

20:14

Mhmm. -- and you've got this wrangling going

20:16

on. Yeah. And I think wrangling is

20:18

exactly it. And I I really

20:20

relate to that idea of something

20:22

happening outwardly. That's like a big

20:25

deal. I mean, not to that level, but

20:28

this kind of sense of things that you may have written

20:30

down dreams, lists

20:32

of things that you would love in your wildest

20:34

dreams to accomplish, and they

20:36

start to happen, and you think.

20:39

So it's like imposter. Syndrome

20:41

and that really comes out and, you know, you

20:43

will have had people applaud you for

20:46

your success writing the book. And suddenly

20:48

that, like, puts a magnifying glass up

20:50

to to how you really feel about yourself

20:52

because you're thinking, oh, everyone's telling me

20:55

This is really good and really exciting, and

20:57

I feel nothing but the opposite

20:59

of joy or pride

21:02

or happiness or contentment, whatever

21:04

it is. And I think from

21:06

me, it was landing on

21:08

BBC One. I was doing cover for the one

21:10

show. It was not it was I

21:12

had done robot wars up until that point,

21:14

which again, I had no idea, but that

21:16

was, you know, what robot wars was

21:19

truthfully. When they asked me to do it, I had to

21:21

Google it. But it was a it was a

21:23

really gentle loving audience. Then

21:25

I hopped on to the one show to cover Alex

21:27

Jones' maternity leave. And

21:30

suddenly it was millions of people

21:33

every evening, but it was a

21:35

it was a massive thing for me. And

21:39

I had I had moments where I couldn't

21:41

leave the house. I was like, oh my god. It was so

21:44

incredibly overwhelming at a time when

21:47

I felt like I should

21:49

be loving this. I'm literally

21:51

living the dream. Everything I've put

21:53

on the list is happening what is wrong with

21:55

me. And I think it's at the

21:58

time such a frightening

22:00

place to arrive at because I was

22:02

mid thirties maybe. And

22:05

had this sense of, oh my god, I'm

22:07

never gonna be happy. I'm never going

22:09

to be happy. And there's

22:12

something wrong with me. There's something

22:14

a bit broken and this is gonna

22:16

be a long old road. But

22:18

there's also something I that

22:20

I'm really grateful for. Is

22:23

having hit that, having hit those

22:25

milestones that from me

22:27

were out of reach and

22:30

realizing that actually they didn't

22:33

feel the void if we wanna use yours,

22:35

feed the beast, whatever it is, that the goalpost

22:37

will always move and that as long

22:39

as you're hoping to fill yourself up from the outside,

22:43

they'll they'll continue to move. You won't reach

22:45

them. You'll have a little moment. You'll, you

22:47

know, feel shiny for ten

22:49

seconds. But there's kind of an the word

22:51

I come back to is that, like, there's a hollowness to

22:54

those achievements sometimes

22:56

if you

22:59

are not nurturing

23:02

yourself

23:03

internally, I suppose, that all of that

23:05

stuff is lovely, but it's not the

23:07

answer. I'm really interested

23:10

in this idea. And by the way, I completely

23:12

agree it's not the answer. But I'm very

23:14

interested in the idea of thinking you're broken.

23:16

And, you know, I hope you don't mind me going into

23:18

that because I just wonder how

23:22

many people listening, how many people

23:24

we all know, how many people just

23:26

living their lives today feel alone

23:28

in that question. Mhmm. You know,

23:30

I've certainly had that points

23:32

again in my life where think Am

23:36

I just not like everyone else? Yeah. Am I

23:38

the only person that feels this way?

23:41

You know, am I the only person that can't really figure

23:43

myself out? That can't

23:46

really be

23:46

happy. I don't think I was happy --

23:49

Yeah. -- for probably thirty of

23:51

my almost thirty two years, almost

23:53

think I've only been happy

23:56

for the last couple of years, having

23:58

worked on actually understanding my

24:00

self esteem and everything. Yeah. But I just wonder

24:03

maybe that's extreme. But I I just wonder

24:05

how many people have wondered if

24:08

there's something wrong with them too because they don't

24:10

feel quite like everyone else, but we don't you

24:12

know what everyone else feels like, which is just

24:15

this interesting contrast.

24:17

How long did you feel that sense of

24:19

kind of

24:21

Something isn't right. I

24:23

mean, I don't think that is dramatic to say

24:25

it was it was thirty years. I mean, I

24:27

think a lot of people

24:30

are unhappy or

24:33

or maybe not unhappy, but

24:35

are

24:38

It wasn't unhappy

24:39

for most of it. It wasn't yes.

24:42

I have very some very serious issues with

24:44

my mental health when I ill, but even if I say that

24:46

was two of the thirty

24:47

years, I wasn't inherently unhappy.

24:50

I wouldn't have seek help for

24:54

low mood. Yeah. But I

24:56

didn't feel a

24:58

true sense of contentment of knees.

25:00

I felt like you said this almost way

25:03

on like I just wasn't

25:06

something just hadn't clicked. You know,

25:08

I didn't have an ease in my life in any

25:10

capacity.

25:11

I didn't naturally wake up and think like, yes,

25:13

this is a great day. Yeah. And

25:15

I you know what? I think, again,

25:17

it's a fantasy to believe that other people

25:19

have that naturally. And I think the people

25:22

who do many maybe people some people

25:24

do because the habits have been instilled from

25:26

the time they're small. But it ultimately, I

25:28

think it's about the

25:30

tools and the habits that you

25:32

do every single day. think I certainly

25:35

felt ease was nothing

25:38

close to what I felt. And only

25:41

now that I I do regularly

25:43

have a sense of ease and contempt, and do I realize

25:45

how like, that's really the

25:47

the thing we should be striving for because

25:49

it's so I mean,

25:52

the opposite of it is disease. And

25:54

so I think we

25:58

underestimate the importance of that,

26:00

but also we underestimate how

26:03

Maybe not difficult it is, but that that's

26:05

actually it it takes work and

26:07

it takes commitment and it takes everyday

26:10

ness, which is not a word.

26:12

But is it's that routine.

26:15

It's the kind of more day

26:18

to day things that most of

26:20

us don't wanna hear it. We want instant

26:22

gratification. We want immediate change.

26:25

We want transformation overnight.

26:27

And actually, it it does

26:29

take a few years. I mean, technically

26:32

thirty days to install a new habit

26:34

or whatever. But actually, it's

26:36

the commitment to doing something

26:38

day to day. And truthfully, A

26:41

lot of the time it requires you to slow

26:43

down long enough to hear

26:46

something inside, go, I'm not. Okay.

26:49

Or I don't fit. This is not enough

26:51

for me. Whatever this is is

26:53

not enough for me. And

26:56

and to hear yourself say that,

26:59

you can't. And I write about this and joyride. It

27:01

was one of the most confronting moments. And

27:03

is that sense of of fully

27:05

knowing yourself and self knowledge and everything

27:08

else being born out of that? I think we are so

27:10

busy. Being busy

27:12

that we never sit down to

27:14

actually listen to ourselves. And most

27:17

of us are too afraid because

27:19

bubbling in the background are

27:21

the answers to changes that

27:23

we need to make, things that we've ignored, ways

27:25

that we've abandoned ourselves. And so

27:28

sit down and hear that. You

27:30

cannot unhear it and you either have

27:32

to continue to ignore it and

27:34

to distract yourself with addiction

27:37

or whatever unhealthy behaviors or

27:39

you have to

27:40

change, and that's hard. It's

27:43

so hard. And I know in my experience. I think

27:45

you've got to feel worthy of that change. And

27:48

I think for a lot of people that's myself

27:50

very much included, that's that and the

27:52

self awareness of who very

27:54

difficult things. And before we move into a little

27:56

bit about kind of that catalyst

27:59

moment for you because I think it's a

28:01

really important kind of step in

28:03

in the conversation. What

28:05

did that? You know, you touched on that really quickly

28:08

earlier, but that sense of kind of addiction

28:10

and avoidance and numbing out how

28:12

did that look in your life? Because, again,

28:14

I think this sense of burying

28:16

the conversation with ourselves -- Yeah. --

28:18

and thinking, oh, it's okay because I've really well

28:20

at work or it's okay because I've got lots

28:22

of friends -- Mhmm. -- and keep pushing it

28:24

down. Almost makes it easier. To

28:27

ignore it because some things feel like they're going

28:29

really well. Well, I think so with

28:32

my eating disorder, it started when

28:34

I was end of school

28:36

kind of. And I think with

28:39

distance and with time, for

28:41

me, it was connected to developing actually

28:43

physically developing into a woman

28:46

and not feeling prepared for that at all.

28:48

My eating disorder and it was anorexia

28:51

and bulimia depending they kind

28:53

of interchanged, but

28:56

it was a way

28:58

to keep my world really

29:00

small actually. I wanted to travel.

29:03

I kind of had this idea of myself, and I

29:05

did. I traveled relentlessly. But

29:08

actually, I think

29:11

I was really I am really

29:14

sensitive, and I did

29:16

not like that about myself. It felt like a weakness.

29:18

It felt like chink

29:21

in my arm or felt like I just was not

29:23

equipped to deal with the world

29:25

in the way that everyone else seemed to be equipped.

29:28

And so I thought that

29:30

I could run away and go

29:32

to fancy places and pretend I was this

29:35

carrie brash type foreman.

29:38

But equally, I think my

29:41

control around food

29:43

allowed for me to fixate so

29:45

deeply on something really tiny.

29:48

Like, meal to meal. It meant that I didn't

29:50

have to look. I didn't have to take my head

29:52

up and go, what do I wanna do with

29:54

my life? Like, that's a big old question.

29:57

To ask as a teenager in your early twenties

29:59

or if you don't really know where you're going. And

30:02

so it allowed for me to

30:04

feel quite safe

30:06

and protected. My

30:08

mind was preoccupied. My

30:11

world was was pretty tiny,

30:13

but it was also deeply lonely

30:16

and isolating and embarrassing actually.

30:18

And so there was this shame around

30:22

if I didn't wanna let it go

30:24

because I didn't trust what might happen.

30:26

If I if I let it go, I didn't think

30:28

I was ready. And so I

30:30

had to get to a point where

30:32

I was actually just so sick

30:35

of being miserable and of

30:38

feeling quite hopeless. Actually, I was like, there's

30:40

literally no reason why

30:43

I should feel this way. And

30:46

so I again,

30:48

didn't realize at the time, but very neatly

30:51

switched my commitment to

30:54

that behavior. To

30:56

work. I was like, I read

30:58

and I I read an

31:00

article about bulimia,

31:02

which said, it takes

31:04

fourteen days for

31:06

your body to normalize after a

31:09

binge purge episode. The

31:12

language was always bit weird. And I thought,

31:14

oh, I don't have I don't have that time.

31:16

I'm now like I have got

31:18

to start working for

31:21

myself and building a business

31:23

and creating a career and building a

31:25

life. And it was like this there,

31:28

like, really, really clear line

31:30

in the sand where I thought, that's that.

31:33

That's history, and I am now. Focusing

31:37

elsewhere. And so all of

31:39

the drive, all of that relentless passion,

31:43

I guess, that I had reserved

31:45

for my eating disorder went into

31:47

work. And it's tricky because,

31:51

like, I'm really grateful for lot

31:53

of that. That kind of drive

31:55

in an industry and you're related. It's

31:57

a it's difficult industry

32:00

to crack. And I

32:03

am grateful. It

32:05

yielded results for me. There

32:07

was definitely more benefits.

32:10

To being addicted to work than being

32:12

addicted to food. But

32:14

did you feel the same loneliness? Continue?

32:17

Yes. Which was the frightening

32:19

thing. And look, it it took me much

32:21

longer to recognize. I just

32:23

thought I was superhuman and

32:26

that I had magically cured myself off

32:28

of an eating disorder literally

32:30

overnight by making a decision that

32:33

I didn't have time anymore, which

32:35

is obviously ridiculous. It

32:38

was interesting because on

32:40

the one hand, yes, I was being

32:43

rewarded financially and publicly.

32:46

And, you know, I was I was

32:48

shiny. It was interesting to people that I was

32:50

doing this, you know, public career

32:52

seemingly out of out of nowhere.

32:55

But it was it was more lonely because

32:57

I guess nobody

32:59

really recognized that it was problematic. Because,

33:04

you know, I was flying. Did

33:07

it build up like a niggling sense

33:09

of it being problematic? And

33:11

did you did you talk to anyone about

33:13

it, or did you keep it really locked in? I

33:15

kept it totally locked in until

33:17

I realized that I literally

33:20

was I was

33:22

finding a hard to leave the house unless I

33:24

had to get in a car to go to work. And

33:27

I think we kind of wrote it off and I'm, you know,

33:29

my husband She was like this. I don't

33:31

I mean, I don't think this is normal,

33:34

really. And I would just get fixated.

33:37

And we kind of put it down to anxiety

33:39

of, like, increasingly bigger

33:41

jobs, you know, and me thinking, oh,

33:44

I just need to get comfortable with

33:46

this growth. But

33:49

it happened gradually, I think. And

33:51

then I spoke to a therapist about it

33:53

a few years later. Actually, it took me a

33:56

while. And I remember

33:58

her. A lot of the time it

34:00

was it was tied up in logistics

34:02

for me. So I wouldn't recognize

34:05

that I needed time or space.

34:08

I would literally look at a diary. And if

34:10

there was an hour in the middle of a day, I

34:12

could did in a podcast, let's say.

34:15

There was no recognition of

34:17

my limits or my needs

34:19

as a human being. It was a

34:22

diary. Like, fill my

34:24

day basically, and I can keep going

34:26

literally until I fall over it. And so

34:28

when I went to my

34:30

therapist, to steal my therapist. I

34:33

basically went saying my life has

34:35

turned into work. I don't

34:38

everything else is sacrificed. So

34:41

I make loose plans. My

34:44

work plans are concrete and everything else

34:46

is you know, I have commit to

34:48

and then I cancel if something work related

34:50

comes up or if I double book that

34:52

goes. And she was

34:53

like, what about your normal diary?

34:55

And I was like, I don't

34:57

what do you mean? She said, do you do you have

35:00

a personal diary? I was

35:02

like, no. I have work diary that that

35:04

my agent feels. And

35:06

then I show up. And

35:08

so it was the first time that I recognized

35:11

that I was not in touch with what I needed

35:13

like in real life.

35:16

Did you feel your own autopilot in

35:18

some ways? Yeah.

35:20

And, you know, much like the fear of

35:22

sitting down and listening. To yourself.

35:25

It was much easier for me to be busy all

35:27

day update. Be so tired. I fell asleep.

35:29

And holidays were really problematic for that

35:31

very reason because suddenly the space

35:33

in a day allowed for

35:36

the things that you're running away from to

35:38

to surface. And weirdly,

35:40

I had gotten into this

35:42

thing where I was so overworked that

35:45

I'd get into a car and I would literally just

35:48

forelessly. And I think it was my body's

35:50

way of going, I I just couldn't cope

35:52

with with understanding any of those emotions

35:55

or the things that I had been kind of running

35:57

from. So I just

35:58

yeah. I mean, not quite narcolepsy, but

36:01

it felt a bit like that. I

36:03

like the way you talk about this running away,

36:05

though. Because again, even if, you

36:07

know, depending where you are and they're kind of continuing

36:10

this idea, you know, you put it just very succinctly,

36:12

the idea that you're watching TV, but also

36:14

reading a book, but you're also texting

36:17

someone or scrolling Instagram. And,

36:19

you know, you're at work and you're thinking about making toast,

36:21

but then you don't make toast. Yeah. Should you make toast

36:24

Could you go and buy bread? And then kind of in this

36:26

meeting, but I'm kind of on my phone. Oh, what's my

36:28

friend just said? And it's this sense that we

36:31

collectively struggle so much

36:33

to sit still and just

36:36

read book or just watch TV.

36:38

Almost at this point, I feel like just watching

36:40

TV is quite an alien concept

36:42

without your phone. Yeah. Without your

36:44

laptop. Mhmm. And I'm

36:46

not saying that's always unhealthy, but it's just

36:48

this. I think it's challenging from the for

36:51

the brain on physiological level that

36:53

consists and over stimulation. Yeah.

36:55

And again, I think you're very succinct in the fact

36:57

that don't think we always recognize that the over

36:59

stimulation It's just physiologically

37:02

quite challenging on our minds and on

37:04

our bodies and sometimes it

37:06

can lead to anxiety or feelings

37:08

like

37:08

anxiety.

37:09

Yeah. And we think there's you know,

37:11

it's tied to work or it's tied to this, but it's also

37:13

just tied to this intense busyness

37:15

and consistent distraction.

37:17

And burn it. I mean, you're kind of operating

37:20

at a level where your

37:22

brain is fried,

37:25

completely fried. I wanted to correct

37:27

your catalyst moment. This moment where

37:29

you realized you deserved

37:32

to kind of find joy and and you weren't happy.

37:34

Mhmm. And you know, something

37:36

had to change. And I think what fascinates

37:38

me if you don't mind me saying about this cat at this

37:41

moment is that from

37:43

the outside again, it should have been

37:45

the happiest of moments. It was the birth

37:47

of your first child and yet that was the

37:49

moment act. Chile, you felt your life

37:51

imploded. Mhmm. Which again, I just think

37:53

to spell a lot of these myths that

37:56

a, anything has to be a certain way.

37:58

Yeah. You

37:58

know, And I think we often put a lot of pressure

38:01

and expectation on ourselves, you know,

38:03

birth of our first child, our wedding, our dream

38:05

job, whatever it is, this has to be

38:07

phenomenal. Yes. Sometimes it doesn't feel

38:09

like that and that that's okay. That doesn't make

38:11

you a failure. And I think that's an interesting recognition.

38:14

But again, the fact that sometimes things

38:16

just work out really differently for some people.

38:19

And sometimes moments from the again, looking

38:21

at it from the outside that we think Wow.

38:24

Great job, great husband, baby.

38:26

Yeah. Tic Tic Tic life assorted, and

38:28

that was the moment you felt life imploded.

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39:09

That was the moment you felt life imploded. And

39:11

imploded, I mean, I still don't have to say

39:14

god. I'm so

39:14

dramatic, but also, you know,

39:16

it that that feel it feels

39:19

really heavy, I suppose. And

39:22

even when I talk about it. And now I think

39:24

I have my own struggles with guilt

39:26

because my experience second time

39:28

reign was different. And so I'm

39:31

very grateful, I guess,

39:34

for that experience because it essentially

39:37

pushed me into this

39:39

journey when you use that word that

39:41

allowed for for a different experience.

39:44

But it's still hard to

39:46

admit that it wasn't

39:49

perfect for me, certainly. And,

39:52

yeah, it probably was one of those things where

39:54

the expectation around that moment

39:57

I thought. I would

39:59

feel whole. I would feel

40:02

full. And happy.

40:05

I'd be not girl, I would be, you

40:07

know, just this earth mother

40:09

type. And it

40:13

was again,

40:16

that forced sitting

40:18

physically under a baby and thinking,

40:21

oh, my god. What am I doing?

40:24

And the fear of having this

40:26

tiny, beautiful, little

40:29

soul completely

40:31

dependent on me and

40:34

the fear that I

40:36

would not be able to deliver

40:39

for her what she deserved or what

40:41

she expected or what she needed.

40:44

And so I had and and and

40:46

truthfully, I think,

40:48

and people may relate to this more.

40:51

For me, it it

40:53

put me in touch. With

40:56

my inner child and me

40:58

as a baby in a way that

41:00

was so, like, moving to

41:03

me and so overwhelming, then I was

41:05

like, oh my god. I kind of had

41:08

compassion for myself.

41:11

In a way that was, like, hard to

41:14

to handle, you know, because I thought,

41:16

oh, I've actually been quite yeah,

41:19

just relentless with myself forever.

41:22

And then suddenly, I have

41:24

this baby and I

41:25

think, oh my

41:26

god. I was a baby. I

41:28

actually, you know, was completely

41:31

dependent on a mom

41:33

who was probably struggling in similar

41:35

way that I am and so I had compassion

41:37

for my own mother that was was

41:39

new for me. Mhmm. You know,

41:41

I suddenly had this kind of sense of,

41:44

oh, Wow.

41:46

Yeah. It's messy. The

41:48

whole thing is messy. And my

41:51

expectations around what perfection looks

41:53

like as a parent and

41:56

that dynamic and that relationship

41:58

and everything just like flew out

42:01

the window. It was tough,

42:03

but it was also the moment where

42:05

I taught whatever

42:08

I've been doing up until now. I

42:13

don't wanna continue because I

42:15

thought whatever habits I've

42:18

gotten into, whatever behaviors I

42:21

have built my life

42:23

around. I've gotten to this point

42:26

and like it's not right.

42:28

This is not how

42:30

I want to be

42:33

and I don't want my daughter to learn

42:35

that this is the way to be.

42:37

And so it was kind of that was the

42:39

kick up the ass for me was I need

42:41

to fix stuff so that she

42:43

doesn't end up like this.

42:47

It's so honest that and I have to say

42:50

and and I don't know about other people listening,

42:52

and I I really really relate to you saying

42:54

how difficult is to say that out loud

42:56

because I think I had it's

42:59

probably why I love joy riders so much because

43:01

I felt it validated so much of

43:03

my own experience in my

43:04

life, but sound deeply self

43:06

centered.

43:07

Well, no. But that I mean, that's what I hoped

43:09

for. Yeah. And then it's absolutely what you

43:11

achieved and it it's that's how I felt. After

43:13

my first daughter was born and I've always

43:16

find that really hard to kind of admit

43:18

because you do think

43:20

it's gonna be perfect and I'd been living

43:22

the busiest of lives and every

43:25

second was full and Yeah. --

43:27

but I don't really know what I was chasing, but

43:30

something. Yeah. And almost

43:32

at this point, just like keeping up and she

43:34

was born and it wasn't easy. It

43:37

was really really, really

43:39

hard. Why I thought it would be easy.

43:41

Goodness knows. Yeah. But

43:43

it wasn't. It really, really wasn't. And

43:46

I found breastfeeding almost as possible and

43:49

I found I almost used that as

43:51

the validation that it wasn't very good at

43:53

this and and I found it really difficult.

43:55

And I went back to work after like four

43:58

or five weeks. And I always say, you

44:01

know, haven't really talked about this before, but I always say,

44:03

you know, I had to go back to work. And

44:06

it's so interesting because it's been on

44:08

a real journey of

44:10

self development in the last few years and, like, really

44:12

putting my mental health first and as

44:14

again, very I think very similar to you and

44:16

really understanding, like, that

44:19

joy and contentment is the goal of

44:21

life and living life with the sense

44:23

of ease is is literally life today

44:25

and life five years ago, it's like they bear

44:27

no resemblance to each other, which

44:29

I'm incredibly grateful for. But I

44:32

nothing about that experience was good. And then they said

44:34

I said I had to go back to work, but I I

44:36

think I said I had to go back to work

44:39

to keep myself very very

44:41

busy and distracted and not really

44:43

admitting that, you know, I was

44:45

kind of felt like I was drowning really in lots

44:48

of ways. And, you know, I'm

44:50

sure there were things I couldn't get out of, you know,

44:52

I'd committed to doing a cookbook and we had shoot

44:54

and I hadn't done any of the recipes because I had such

44:56

bad morning sickness and all the rest of it. Yeah. I probably

44:58

couldn't have got out of that. But

45:00

all of that bother. She could have been done at

45:03

home. But I was like, gotta keep going with the podcast.

45:05

Gotta do this. And I was like, running around

45:07

London six weeks after she was born.

45:10

And then we yeah. Gotta get back to breastfeeding

45:12

at two o'clock. Like, who knows what I

45:14

was thinking? And it's a

45:16

really interesting one to look back on with

45:18

a lot of self compassion now, and appreciate why

45:20

you said it's so difficult to talk about. But I also

45:22

think it brings a lot of validation

45:25

and comfort to a lot of women who are

45:28

potentially in that place or almost

45:30

just permission that if and when they are ever

45:32

in that place, it doesn't necessarily have

45:34

to look how it sometimes looks for the people,

45:36

which is that this happens. And your life's

45:38

complete, sometimes it happens. And as you said,

45:40

it holds up the most brutal

45:43

of mirrors to the fact something's

45:44

wrong.

45:44

Yeah. And actually, for me, it didn't happen to almost

45:47

few months later because when she was about seven

45:49

months, COVID happened. Yeah. And lockdown

45:51

kicked in. Yeah. And it had to

45:53

sit still. And everything I was meant

45:55

to do for the next few months was canceled. I was meant

45:57

to be on a book tour and blah blah blah. Everything was canceled.

46:00

Yeah. And I was pregnant second time around

46:02

and became honest with myself about

46:04

it. And I did yeah. Started

46:07

this journey at that point. Yeah. But I think it's

46:09

just incredibly brave to be

46:11

honest about the fact that these moments

46:13

can be the making of you. And what

46:16

did that look like? Because again, this is what

46:18

fascinates me this idea of this

46:20

wake up moment, I need to make a change.

46:22

Mhmm. But making the change

46:25

and seeing the change through is a whole

46:27

different ball

46:28

game. Yeah. Kind of what did you

46:30

do the next day? I

46:33

mean, I don't know that it

46:35

would Like, I I know I know do write

46:37

about this. Enjoy write it. I would in moments

46:39

of desperation, like tech

46:42

text people. And then I would shamefully

46:44

kind of retreats and, like, oh, no. No. No. No. It's

46:46

it's absolutely fine. So I knew something

46:49

was wrong. I would try to reach

46:51

out and then I would go, oh, no. No. No. Hang

46:54

on. I'm not there. And

46:56

I guess maybe people talk about

46:58

a rock bottom, those moments

47:00

where you're on your knees literally because

47:03

maybe I do have one of

47:05

those moments where I kind

47:07

of could see I was clinging

47:09

on so tightly and

47:12

it was linked to breastfeeding actually at the time

47:16

and I was comping and it became

47:18

such a fixation for me. I was like, if

47:20

I don't manage to breastfeed this baby,

47:22

it was like the emotion of

47:25

being a mother was so overwhelming to

47:27

me. But if I could focus on the mechanical

47:30

side of being a mother, then that

47:32

was much like the logistics in

47:34

my diary. I didn't have to really delve

47:37

into needs and limitations

47:40

and space, and room

47:42

for messiness, and room for,

47:44

like, wriggle room, I suppose. Room

47:46

for humanness, I think. And

47:48

so the breastfeeding thing was like

47:50

a mechanical obsession. And

47:54

I just was so green

47:57

and I was pumping like a crazy

47:59

woman. I mean I had a fridge full of

48:01

breast milk and then I thought, I've

48:03

got loads, but I can take a few days off.

48:05

That's obviously not how it works. And

48:07

suddenly I had no milk and was literally

48:10

walking. I remember walking the street.

48:12

One Sunday morning, weeping,

48:15

leaving a voice memo to a friend going, I'm

48:17

just waiting for the health food shop

48:19

to open so I can buy some brewers yeast.

48:22

Because my milk supply has gone down and

48:24

now I need more milk and the milk in the fridge has

48:26

run out and I now have no breast milk because

48:28

I've obviously stopped plumping for

48:30

a few days anyway. And then

48:32

I remember pumping and getting,

48:35

like, a minuscule. Am I This is a

48:37

niche content. And

48:40

my husband's he

48:42

was like, you need to get some rest, and I was

48:44

so wired that I couldn't. I was like, fine.

48:47

There's fifty miles. I had spent an hour

48:49

pumping, fifty miles. So

48:51

I put it in a bottle. I handed it to him.

48:54

My kiss took a night. I went upstairs. And

48:58

than I heard, like, literally as

49:00

I was leaving the room, the

49:03

teeth in the bottle hadn't been, like,

49:06

popped, and so the fifty

49:08

mils was all over her baby

49:10

girl. That was it.

49:13

And, like, the plan had been that I would go

49:15

and get this, like, magical three hour sleep

49:17

that would suddenly replenish my stocks and

49:19

that I'd feed her in three hours time. Anyway,

49:21

that didn't happen. And he was

49:23

like, we're done.

49:26

Sunday night, he went to the

49:28

local petrol Scanlon. And

49:31

bought some formula. And

49:33

I remember weeping as I

49:35

went up the stairs. I was like, I can't

49:38

lock at you doing this. And

49:41

I lay down and I thought, a,

49:44

it's absolutely mental. And

49:47

then and I felt a

49:49

relief that he had kind of

49:51

taken it into his own hands. And then,

49:53

like, an office, an office, I'd go to bed.

49:56

So he fed her, anyway, I ended up breastfeeding

49:58

for nine months and getting somehow managing

50:01

to get it back on track. But

50:03

it was a moment where I thought that

50:05

is it's so manic. And

50:08

so out of proportion for

50:11

what's happening. My emotional state

50:13

is not. I'm not okay,

50:15

and I I found

50:17

a therapist and I rang, and I was like,

50:19

I briefly went

50:21

to therapy, you know, in

50:23

my early late teens. When

50:26

I had originally told my parents about

50:29

my eating disorder, but it was a bit token

50:31

I wasn't ready. And I told

50:33

her and I was like, I need.

50:35

Help. And it

50:38

was the, like, the first time I had said

50:40

that to anybody where I was like, so I something

50:42

needs to change whatever it is. I don't care. don't

50:44

have the answers anymore. I've read all the self help

50:47

books. I've read everything since I was fifteen

50:49

years of age. And I've been trying to

50:51

consume all of these things and nothing

50:53

is working for me. Please please

50:55

help me.

50:57

And what what did you

50:59

start to do? So you started

51:01

to talk to her. Yeah. And I

51:04

think it's a very interesting point this idea

51:06

of waiting till you're ready. My

51:08

dad sent me to therapy when

51:10

I was ill, and I just wasn't ready

51:12

to be there. So I just sat there. It was very defensive

51:15

in retrospect. No said, hi,

51:17

Mel. You know, I can't

51:19

do anything anyone else can do. I can

51:21

barely leave the house. I sleep sixteen hours

51:23

a day. I can't

51:25

really walk down the street, so I feel quite

51:28

left out. There's nothing anyone

51:30

can do about the

51:31

illness. So There

51:33

we go. What

51:33

are you good? And she basically said, I'm

51:36

not really sure this much I can do. And I

51:38

did that as a sign of, there you go, validated

51:41

you are broken. No one can fix you off

51:43

you go. That was just pointless. And

51:45

actually, I was just not ready for it.

51:47

And I haven't been back, but I've done a lot

51:49

of other exploring through other different

51:51

ways. But it's a really interesting

51:53

point, I think, of read all the

51:55

books. Mhmm. Unless you're ready to make it

51:58

change and you know that fully within yourself.

52:00

It doesn't really mean anything. How many books

52:02

did you read? All of them. I

52:04

mean, I never

52:06

I'd I'm slightly embarrassed

52:08

to say that I don't read fiction. I've literally

52:10

since I've been fifteen years of age, probably.

52:13

And they record self help, they're not self development.

52:15

I that's all the books I've read. Maybe

52:17

in autobiography, but I was reading again

52:19

in a slightly unhealthy way, betterment

52:22

was my goal. It wasn't

52:24

escape or comfort of reading a book,

52:26

curling off with a book. It was like, okay, how do I

52:28

make myself better through reading this information?

52:31

And look, I love that. I have a thirst and

52:33

an interest in all of those different

52:35

things. It's how joy writer came about because I feel

52:37

like I've kind of done

52:39

all of that consumption on your

52:41

behalf. But I do think it's

52:44

it is readiness. It's it's and

52:46

look, my hope for people is that they

52:48

don't get to that point where they're literally

52:51

falling apart. To say,

52:53

can somebody help me or

52:55

to look for help?

52:57

And I say help. For me,

53:00

having a baby meant that I couldn't be

53:02

alone wolf anymore. I had to

53:04

depend massively on my

53:06

husband. I had to depend on

53:09

and nanny, I had to depend on people.

53:11

Like, if I needed to go to a doctor, I needed

53:13

somebody to help me and I had never done

53:16

that. I prided myself on being able to

53:18

go wherever I wanted, whenever I wanted pay

53:20

with money I'd earn myself. I was

53:22

completely independent. And so

53:24

it was a shock to the system in so many ways.

53:28

And and the kind of way that I had

53:30

constructed my life, baby

53:32

aside. Suddenly it was it

53:34

was that sense of having to reach out

53:36

and ask for help and be dependent on other

53:38

people. That was a that was a big issue for

53:40

me. But I think for

53:43

most people, they're just looking for

53:45

ways to to

53:47

shift perspective. They may not be as

53:49

as deep in the

53:52

in the solo hole as me. Like,

53:54

gratitude, which was that was

53:56

the starting point for my pod cast thanks

53:58

a million and also for joy

54:00

writer was one of the practices that

54:02

I started to lean on really,

54:04

really heavily. And and more seriously,

54:06

it was something I dipped in and out of for long

54:09

time before that

54:11

and kind of dismissed. And this

54:13

is it is something I would encourage people

54:15

to do. Often, we think we look

54:17

back and go, oh, when I was in a not

54:19

so great place, what was I doing? How do I change

54:22

that? But actually, taking note

54:24

of the things you're doing when you are in a

54:26

good place is invaluable when

54:29

those cycles or periods happen when

54:31

when you're not feeling so good. And

54:34

gratitude was the thing

54:36

that was a kind of recurring

54:39

theme and practice. To me and I completely

54:41

talk it for granted because it was easy

54:44

and free and

54:46

something that I had to do. Every day

54:49

rather than just a pill that I could swallow

54:51

and that would fix me and was, you know, a

54:53

bit fabulous. I wanna go

54:55

a deep dive into gratitude and assess really

54:57

interested as you said that kind of that desire

55:00

for the silver bullet, the quick fix.

55:02

I mean, there can't be anyone on this

55:04

planet who hasn't wished for that. That

55:06

you can just

55:08

pass it over to someone else in a way.

55:11

And I know you said you have tried all

55:13

of

55:13

it, all of the self care, all the self

55:15

development, all the weird and the wacky

55:17

and the wonderful. Mhmm. What

55:19

did you try? What was the weirdest thing?

55:22

Yeah. Why did I try? I did, like,

55:24

Psyche, which is an

55:26

energetic

55:27

thing. I did temma

55:29

scarls --

55:30

What's that? -- sound baths. They're kind of

55:32

like shaministic,

55:34

ritualistic things where

55:37

you would, you know, slightly purge,

55:39

not Ayahuasca, but, like, in

55:41

that vein, tinctures,

55:44

potions, supplements,

55:47

like weird and wacky things. That that's my

55:49

it still my playground. I go into

55:52

health food shop. I go my husband

55:55

relentlessly tease me about my

55:57

list of wax. And I've made peace

55:59

with that because actually, I think I just like being robbed,

56:02

you know, so whether that's really flexology

56:04

or massage or raking or all of those

56:06

things. They I

56:08

I really love them and actually that self

56:10

care and that kind of nurture sometimes

56:12

maybe the things I wasn't able to give to

56:14

myself. I was able to somehow get

56:17

from other people. However, I

56:20

was consuming them

56:23

with the hope that they would, yeah, make me

56:26

feel fixed. And

56:28

I don't think any of them do.

56:31

I mean, much like don't think therapy on

56:33

its own does that. think it's a a

56:35

much bigger picture, which

56:37

is boring for people to hear. And,

56:40

you know, that idea of having to show

56:42

up everyday meditation is a big part

56:44

of of my life now and of

56:46

my practice and in my

56:48

delicate, but most people, I'd fuck that.

56:50

I'm sorry. I had enough time for

56:52

meditation where is the

56:54

pill? Oh my gosh. I said they

56:56

didn't have time for meditation for, like, five

56:58

years. So III get

57:00

back. Yeah. I literally sound like you're creepy.

57:02

I'm like,

57:02

no. No. No. No. But I like

57:05

so many of us will, like,

57:06

meditate

57:06

sure. We don't have time. Yeah. I also pumped

57:09

for an hour to get five mils of breast milk.

57:11

I totally relate to that

57:13

deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply bow. Do you say

57:15

and I don't wanna be reductive with this, but would

57:17

you say if you were thinking those

57:19

external

57:20

things, whilst they are really good, as you said,

57:22

for nourishing, showing the fact that you do want

57:24

to nourish yourself and you do want to take care of

57:26

yourself and you Scanlon it down, they they didn't

57:28

fix it because on their own, that's

57:31

not so much often the case. Do

57:33

you feel like what? I don't wanna say fix,

57:35

but what helped you kind of it create

57:37

a different pathway -- Mhmm. -- was

57:40

cultivating self belief, self

57:42

esteem, self worth, a real

57:44

relationship with yourself. Do you feel like

57:46

fundamentally that is what made

57:49

the difference? One hundred

57:51

percent. Yes. It

57:53

was those uncomfortable here. And

57:55

I think of meditation and

57:57

often my meditation was sitting for an

57:59

hour with myself and like

58:02

listening to myself. So not always

58:05

being in that Zen moment, but actually

58:09

not being distracted. By a

58:11

million different things and actually hearing

58:14

myself talk internally or my hire

58:16

self, whatever way you wanna frame

58:18

that. But I think properly getting

58:21

to know myself, unlike myself,

58:24

and care enough about myself

58:27

to give myself

58:29

the things that I needed to actually

58:32

and think that was the the thing with

58:35

having children was

58:37

I would literally lie down in the middle

58:39

of their road for them. Not

58:41

that that's very useful exercise,

58:44

but that I would do anything,

58:46

yet I would never have offered that sort

58:49

of compassion or care or commitment

58:51

to myself. And so suddenly, I thought, oh,

58:53

no. The love that I give to other

58:55

people I have got to start, throw

58:58

in some of it at myself, not just

59:00

the crumbs that are left. And

59:02

so yeah, it's not the

59:05

platitudes. It's every day

59:07

going. You actually do deserve an

59:09

up or a day off or

59:12

a hawk, you know, or it's okay

59:14

to lie down and have a cry,

59:17

or to fuck something up and start

59:19

again, or to just

59:21

give yourself a break, I suppose. But

59:24

I had to, yes,

59:26

sit properly sit with myself.

59:29

Me too. And how long it's

59:32

a really weird question because kind of how long's the piece

59:34

of string, but how long

59:36

do you think it took so roughly

59:39

to accept yourself? No. To

59:41

to like yourself, to

59:44

say, you know what? I've done a

59:46

good job like I'm worth keeping

59:48

keep taking care of.

59:49

I think that's

59:52

still a process

59:54

for

59:54

me.

59:55

But is it better than where it's -- Oh, it's not

59:57

that. -- you know, four, five years ago, infinitely

59:59

better. Infinitely better because here's

1:00:01

the thing. Now I recognize

1:00:05

when I'm moving into those states,

1:00:07

when I'm starting to I

1:00:10

mean, one of my coping mechanisms when I

1:00:12

feel overwhelmed is adding more

1:00:14

to my place. So it's like the

1:00:16

fear of feeling overwhelmed pushes

1:00:19

me to a behavior which is exacerbating

1:00:23

things, but to to say,

1:00:25

guys, I feel really overwhelmed. Can somebody help

1:00:27

me? That's the worst place

1:00:29

I can be. So I

1:00:31

just fill my diary up. I kind of go into

1:00:33

this mode of I can

1:00:35

do it all. Fill fill fill. And

1:00:37

now I recognize, oh, that's like

1:00:40

self sabotage. Totally. I'm

1:00:42

more in tune with myself. So

1:00:46

I can recognize, oh,

1:00:48

okay, that behavior is

1:00:50

my cue that something is

1:00:52

up. The kind of

1:00:56

maniveness that I

1:00:58

move towards, which is kind of a manifested

1:01:01

whether that would be eating

1:01:03

work, that kind of stays

1:01:06

is is a clue. So instead of gonna

1:01:08

hate that I have that weakness

1:01:10

or that tendency or that inability to

1:01:12

cope, I go, oh, cool. A

1:01:15

little signpost for me that

1:01:17

something has gone off.

1:01:20

And I just now will go, I'm need

1:01:23

to care the dex tomorrow or I

1:01:25

need to let somebody down, actually.

1:01:28

And I'm sorry I committed to that thing when

1:01:30

I thought I could do everything. But

1:01:32

I realized that that's not good.

1:01:34

It's catching myself really and that's

1:01:37

that's an ongoing thing, but

1:01:39

it's, yeah, given giving myself a break

1:01:41

and then just being more mindful

1:01:44

of when I fall

1:01:45

off. The wagon. And

1:01:47

I think that's lifelong process. This whole

1:01:49

I mean, I know I started working on

1:01:51

this sort of two, two and a half years ago, and

1:01:54

I feel the sense of ease

1:01:56

and contentment and peace

1:01:58

with myself that have never felt before and has

1:02:00

changed my life more than I could ever begin

1:02:02

to say. But it's certainly like a

1:02:04

daily practice. I'm a hundred percent

1:02:06

I feel like it will be until I'm a hundred.

1:02:08

can't see ever a world in which

1:02:10

I let it all

1:02:12

the habits that make me feel that

1:02:14

way go. Yeah. And then I

1:02:17

keep being happy. I think I need those,

1:02:19

like, daily little check ins very, very much.

1:02:21

Yeah. And on that, what are your sort

1:02:23

of daily daily ish habits? What do you

1:02:25

feel you do most days or most

1:02:28

weeks to really look after

1:02:29

yourself? Again, it

1:02:31

depend it depends on time. And

1:02:34

joy writer was written and thanks a

1:02:36

million was kind of formed

1:02:38

because gratitude felt really

1:02:41

fluffy to me. The way it was presented was always

1:02:43

quite fluffy. And so it would slightly

1:02:46

throw away the, like, the

1:02:48

science and the hard kind of

1:02:50

benefits. And I thought, okay, my dad's probably

1:02:52

not gonna go and you know, do

1:02:54

a gong bath to help his vibration, although

1:02:57

he definitely should. But he would probably

1:03:00

sit in his chair and go, oh, these are three things I'm

1:03:02

great before. There's a that was felt like

1:03:05

a little habit that

1:03:07

I call gratitude the gateway drug

1:03:09

into into wellness. It's the easiest

1:03:12

way the easiest habits

1:03:15

or one of the things that you can

1:03:17

do to kind of properly shift your

1:03:19

perspective. And think from

1:03:22

me that and we touched on it earlier on that

1:03:24

idea of comparison and looking

1:03:26

around. And I was obsessed, you know,

1:03:28

with measuring my progress, my success,

1:03:31

my happiness in comparison to somebody

1:03:33

else. And look, that's a natural thing

1:03:35

to do as humans. It's what pushes us

1:03:37

to evolve and to grow and to get

1:03:39

better. And to strive, and I love

1:03:41

that. And I love that kind of hunger

1:03:44

in myself as an attribute. I really appreciate

1:03:46

that now. BOSS,

1:03:49

we can do it like literally before you leave

1:03:51

that hop on Instagram and your day has

1:03:53

been annihilated because a

1:03:55

teenage billionaire has

1:03:58

saved a whales. I don't know. And you're like,

1:04:00

I mean, there's no point really in getting open recording

1:04:02

your podcast type. So it's

1:04:04

kind of, I think, using

1:04:07

gratitude to really focus

1:04:10

on the kings that you have control of,

1:04:12

the kings that you have right

1:04:14

now. And feeling nourished

1:04:16

and feeling fed and feeling full

1:04:18

by what you have in

1:04:21

order to kind of cultivate more of

1:04:23

of that space. In

1:04:25

your life. So that is the thing that I start

1:04:27

my day with in bed, hand on my heart,

1:04:29

hand on my belly, and literally feel

1:04:32

into three things and it could be the

1:04:34

sheets or it could be my daughter's chattering

1:04:36

in the next room. It could be, you know,

1:04:38

something that I'm excited to do

1:04:40

in the day But

1:04:42

it's it's getting into the feeling

1:04:45

of it, which I think is the key rather than

1:04:47

just banging off a list of stuff.

1:04:50

And then it's finding

1:04:53

space. I used to, again, like, really be

1:04:55

annoyed with myself that I wasn't up and

1:04:57

on a treadmill at six AM, like,

1:04:59

all the rest of their a types.

1:05:02

And I realized actually

1:05:04

what I love is a slightly slower

1:05:07

build to a morning. And

1:05:10

so I and that's not always possible.

1:05:12

But I like to challenge myself to slow

1:05:15

down time, so even finding five minutes.

1:05:17

And going, okay. I mean, the ideal is a forty

1:05:19

minute meditation. When that

1:05:21

doesn't happen, it's sitting by

1:05:24

my window in my favorite chair

1:05:26

with a blanket. And five

1:05:28

minutes of going, I am gonna be right

1:05:30

here for five minutes.

1:05:33

And I'm gonna and I can hear chaos

1:05:35

in the background or not if I get up early enough.

1:05:38

And I just have this little moment to

1:05:41

check-in with myself. In a way

1:05:43

that I might not be able to for rest of the day

1:05:45

when I get busy. And

1:05:48

I'm in a mode of

1:05:50

doing and creating and producing.

1:05:53

And so it's that little moment where I

1:05:55

can go, how are you are you okay?

1:05:57

I'm a care enough that I can hear

1:05:59

whatever comes up or at least I know

1:06:02

that I've had that little check-in, which

1:06:06

has kind of become this and

1:06:08

we spoke about this when you're on my podcast.

1:06:11

This little ritual

1:06:14

and I love ritual

1:06:16

I love. Ceremony. You know? And

1:06:18

I don't know whether that's a boundary

1:06:20

thing that I find it difficult to go. I am

1:06:22

in this office. Please don't disturb me.

1:06:24

I have to go. I'm doing ceremony.

1:06:26

It needs to, you know, have a certain

1:06:29

level of pulp and grunger in

1:06:31

order for me to protect it. But

1:06:34

the idea of,

1:06:37

like, pouring, you know, little bit

1:06:39

of intention and the kind of presence

1:06:41

that I get with wrapping my hands around

1:06:44

warm morgue and breathing

1:06:46

it in and whatever your

1:06:48

belief is, that idea around the

1:06:52

energy in that being

1:06:55

slow and being soft, and

1:06:57

it kind of reminds me to

1:07:01

breathe. So those

1:07:04

are the things that I guess my my morning

1:07:07

will start with maybe a

1:07:09

little journaling, although that's

1:07:11

quite sporadic. An orphan is

1:07:13

made up of multiple students. And

1:07:16

multiple journals in many different

1:07:18

places. But, yeah, those are the kind of things

1:07:21

that I do. And then cold showers, which I love,

1:07:23

which is very much on the other side.

1:07:25

And I think balances something

1:07:27

that I really strive for because I do like that

1:07:30

a type kind of I

1:07:32

I like to get it done what I think

1:07:35

I need to work harder

1:07:37

at spaciousness

1:07:40

and and finding that space. So

1:07:42

it's if I can somehow managed

1:07:44

to marry those

1:07:45

two. It's a good day. And do you feel

1:07:48

like a fundamentally completely different

1:07:50

person than you felt like five,

1:07:53

ten years ago. Does

1:07:56

life every day feel very

1:07:58

different? It feels like

1:08:01

I mean, I probably, maybe a year

1:08:03

ago would have said, yeah, yeah, I'm completely different.

1:08:06

But then there's a bit of me that feels like that's

1:08:09

a total rejection of a self that

1:08:11

was actually really trying hard for many

1:08:13

years to be helpful. I

1:08:16

pose. And so I

1:08:19

like to think that those

1:08:21

bits of me that were broken

1:08:23

or problematic were

1:08:27

were well meaning. When I did

1:08:29

a retreat during

1:08:31

the summer, with doctor Joe,

1:08:33

suspends that. I don't know whether you're familiar.

1:08:36

And I did a meditation in

1:08:38

that retreat. And this

1:08:42

moment. And often you're like striving for

1:08:44

these moments of wholeness and you

1:08:46

kind of hear. And I I have had some

1:08:48

of those moments where I realize, like,

1:08:51

how massive everything

1:08:54

is and how much a part

1:08:56

of all of this I am and how all

1:08:59

of my problems are really not

1:09:01

problems. But I had this

1:09:04

this moment, which I didn't realize until

1:09:06

after, was quite pivotal where I

1:09:09

was kind of out of my body and

1:09:12

looking at myself and I was

1:09:14

really frustrated because there's this meditation,

1:09:17

which is like about the pineal gland, which is,

1:09:19

you know, opening yourself up to another

1:09:21

dimension. And so a lot of it

1:09:23

is around manifesting and like being better.

1:09:26

And I'm really good at that. Like, I try really hard. I

1:09:28

really commit. But I

1:09:31

I just wasn't getting it. There were people

1:09:33

in the room around me like having these

1:09:35

outer bodied, like, very high

1:09:38

volume moments. I

1:09:40

was like, I'm not doing it

1:09:42

right. I'm not doing it right. So in this,

1:09:45

meditation and we've touched on acceptance.

1:09:47

It was this moment, right,

1:09:49

just thought. So

1:09:51

me up here looking down, saw,

1:09:54

like, the version of me that tries

1:09:57

really hard. And I thought that's

1:09:59

really annoying. I wanna be so effortless. want

1:10:01

things to look. Like

1:10:04

they happen easily. And

1:10:06

I just fell in love with the bit

1:10:08

of me that really, really

1:10:11

wants to do something well and

1:10:13

that's really conscientious and that

1:10:15

shows up and that tries and

1:10:18

like doesn't get it right ever

1:10:20

probably. What that

1:10:22

really tries. And it was this, I

1:10:24

think kind of integration

1:10:27

of a bit of myself that I hated

1:10:29

for so long because it was so tri hard

1:10:31

and it was, yeah, just a little

1:10:34

bit embarrassing for me. And

1:10:36

so I may

1:10:39

be less inclined

1:10:41

to dismiss

1:10:46

and, like, graduate away from

1:10:49

older versions of myself and try

1:10:51

and, yeah, lovingly bring

1:10:54

them along.

1:10:55

By the way, completely agree that I think you can't

1:10:58

just cut off that all part of you. Well, I

1:10:59

think think you can feel fundamentally different

1:11:02

unless you accept the old part and realize they'll

1:11:04

always be on the journey with you. Yeah. Then

1:11:07

it's gonna be really difficult to again,

1:11:10

feel the way you potentially are looking

1:11:12

to

1:11:12

feel. What to feel whole if you're like

1:11:14

literally discarding bits

1:11:16

of you that are fundamental to

1:11:19

who you are and the same with

1:11:21

my eating disorder. I'm like, oh, that

1:11:23

bit of me. It was destructive. There's no

1:11:25

date of birth. Needs to

1:11:27

be handled, but,

1:11:29

like, was well intentioned, was

1:11:32

actually trying to mind

1:11:34

me in a weird, perverse

1:11:37

sort of way. And so I think it's That's

1:11:39

the compassion piece. And for me,

1:11:42

self care, can feel

1:11:44

instagramable and

1:11:48

beautiful and, like, aesthetically pleasing,

1:11:50

but a little bit hollow if self

1:11:53

compassion is not at the core of what you're

1:11:55

doing every day. That is

1:11:57

to accept the messy, ugly,

1:12:00

embarrassing

1:12:02

bits of yourself that aren't as evolved

1:12:04

or as fabulous as you think

1:12:06

they are. I love that. That feels

1:12:09

the perfect place to end. Honestly, Angel's

1:12:11

you so much for being so honest. Apologize

1:12:13

for being a number one greedy

1:12:14

thing. Like,

1:12:15

I Oh my god. How about work? That

1:12:17

I have. Love this. And I appreciate the

1:12:19

validation you give us all. Thank you.

1:12:24

What an episode? It was so

1:12:26

much in that conversation that we don't

1:12:28

really say out loud so often and

1:12:31

those thoughts look different on all of

1:12:33

us, but I think there is a lot that

1:12:36

we can learn from just saying it out loud.

1:12:38

And I think it normalizes so

1:12:40

much of the reality of

1:12:42

life which is messy and layered

1:12:45

and totally