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0:24

I it's Tom Holland here from But

0:26

Go hang a sister show. The rest

0:28

is history and I'm here to tell

0:30

you about very exciting episode is out

0:33

today. It's all about the men who

0:35

walked on the main, the Apollo missions,

0:37

the space race and it features a

0:40

very exciting special guest. none other than

0:42

Tom Hanks. Say that is out today

0:44

And here is a little teaser. Very.

0:47

Interesting personalities of all of these Cruz

0:49

I think comes out in Apollo Eleven

0:51

because I don't think you could have

0:54

to. Individuals that are more different than

0:56

Neil Armstrong was from Buzz Aldrin and

0:58

new truck Michael Collins in there you

1:00

have honest I'm not sure those guys

1:03

would a volunteer to you know drive

1:05

to the beach to get had they

1:07

not. Have not

1:09

been a been assigned to search.

1:12

The rest is history wherever you

1:14

get your podcasts to listen Now.

1:27

As the scott pile to the breaking

1:29

of a steely we did the the

1:32

signal kind. The company shook itself out

1:34

placebo a platoon and we went down

1:36

to the road school the shoulder behind

1:38

casino. Forward. We marched

1:40

called wit. Weary. And

1:43

apprehensive. Rioted. Fall and

1:45

during the not. The road with slushy

1:47

underfoot. We. Marched with our shoulders

1:49

hunched across the role wind. of

1:51

crabs your stomach stroller and to try and

1:53

compress the discord a fear that seem to

1:55

not in distance like a bold first. Fear.

1:58

Fear, fear, and the. Then I'm a feeling

2:00

of fried. The. Merciless enemy.

2:03

Born. Of memory and imagination the can

2:05

twist you mind and to his shrinks.

2:07

With. A tingle of apprehension. He.

2:10

Palm sweet. The. Arm

2:12

and voluntarily flinches at a remembered

2:14

version. Flashed. Only on

2:16

a retina. Of a gory sleeve

2:18

or the severed arm decided to twitching on the

2:20

sand. Is any man immune?

2:23

Can. Anyone face the imminent danger, violent

2:25

death, or deformity with complacency. To.

2:28

Be to some bile by clamoring blast to

2:30

sell for to be chopped in half by

2:32

streaming squirt spend hours to be mind torn

2:35

by by an it through your groin, the

2:37

grenade between your legs to be pointed to

2:39

be hunted to be shot at. The.

2:41

To hunt suit, Return Suddenly find

2:43

yourself a raging buzzard crouched over

2:45

lessing Tommy gone mad with a

2:47

desire to kill. That.

2:50

Is the worst of all. Well. As

2:52

the glory and such hora. Not

2:55

was. I mean and it's it's

2:57

like he was in the room that Rosa Smith

2:59

cell phone is very good. Twenty Fourth Battalion the

3:01

second U Z to division in these it into

3:04

the Dvd that some is a tricky one for

3:06

the tidied englishman of course Ah moto G pull

3:08

that off of of cause I off or he

3:10

did I regret com and and it's sad it's.

3:13

Definitely. Different from most nexus of watch

3:15

others the as we all know is very

3:17

different from I suppose part of efforts the

3:19

I was it will not a nosy about

3:21

us a hell of a bus out of

3:23

a line isn't it hurts? Very good it's

3:26

very good. And he spends easements him

3:28

or he dies into. Seen a bad thing about

3:30

not becoming a basilica. Not becoming is is a

3:32

piss a line, a modem and right by. Isn't

3:34

it that that thing was. Trying.

3:36

To stop self just. Becoming. A

3:38

killer. That the. Rage and all

3:41

that. Anyway, so I'm thanks for joining

3:43

us. Welcome to we have voiced by

3:45

Quito Achtung of Terminal that you're sick Well

3:47

we'll put cause for concern he attends

3:49

Yoni attempt Zone attempts. Yeah, this is

3:51

episode six. Of. On the

3:53

Road to Rome lot our last

3:56

episode with some the German operations

3:58

Swiss francs. or Zeitensprung,

4:02

which came to nothing. And

4:04

the familiar tale of the Germans smashing up

4:06

their own assets, and they, I mean, they

4:09

did cause the Allies some trouble, but smashing

4:11

up their own assets in attacks

4:13

that are ill conceived strategically and then

4:15

poorly executed tactically, I think it's fair

4:17

to say. Would you agree with that,

4:20

Jim? I would say that,

4:22

yeah. Your post-match analysis. I think the

4:24

Germans had a problem. They really have a

4:26

clear vision of, this is like the

4:28

rest, this is the rest, this match of

4:30

the day meets. Yeah. Second

4:32

one of the walks. Yeah, yeah. A very

4:35

patchy defence. In

4:40

the end, the team wasn't really clear on

4:42

what it was trying to achieve, Jim. I

4:45

think that's what we can say. Same ticks

4:47

all over the place. The final analysis is

4:49

Mac, Von Mackensen, one hand, hell behind his

4:51

back, unfortunately, by the Fuhrer. Yeah, he's very

4:53

much the manager of the team. The

4:58

Lair Regiment, the number 11, the Goldhanger.

5:00

The Lairman, that's the problem. Anyway, so

5:02

the Allies

5:05

decide what they're going to do now.

5:09

They're building up Anzio, 4,000

5:11

tonnes a day. Alex wants the

5:13

Navy can guarantee 2,500, but

5:16

they've been given some LSTs. D-Day is

5:18

being held back by a month. It's been

5:20

postponed by a month, which gives a month's

5:23

breathing space for landing ships

5:25

to sail round through the straits of

5:27

Gibraltar and get back to Britain

5:30

for overlords. But Alex

5:32

is also redrawing his lines. He's tidying things

5:34

up. He's going to do a two-fisted punch

5:36

in the form of Operation Dardan with his

5:39

assets in Italy. But what

5:41

we've got to do is

5:43

take Cassino. And luckily,

5:46

I did that New Zealand accident,

5:49

but luckily they got their very best people

5:51

on it. I mean, just to go, but

5:53

just very quickly, just to go back to

5:55

Alexander's plan. I mean, the

5:58

Allies are always in a hurry because... they want to end

6:00

the war as quickly as possible. But for the first

6:03

time, that kind of sort of ghastly,

6:05

awful kind of, right, you got to do it really

6:07

quickly, you got to do it quickly. So that no

6:09

one's got enough time to prepare to

6:11

kind of make proper plans to really get the lay

6:13

of the land. I mean, you

6:15

know, the Texans on the rapid over example, you

6:17

know, for everyone that just, you

6:20

know, walk us down on the whole thing right from the

6:22

word going all the rest of it, but had some other

6:24

kind of wise ahead just went, okay, let's just have

6:27

we got everything ready here, you know, Fred, have

6:29

you kind of sorted out your kind of your,

6:31

your, your far support, obviously, I don't know, being

6:33

all such a rush, then perhaps he might have

6:36

that might have come into play. What Alexander is

6:38

saying, and he's got Wilson's agreement on this is,

6:40

right, we're done on operating in rain and mud.

6:42

Okay, we're going to wait for the ground to

6:45

dry, we're going to bring all our assets to

6:47

bear, we're going to reorganize ourselves. Alex is a

6:49

great one for wanting balance, he likes balance, balancing

6:52

his forces, balancing his plan, flexibility,

6:54

you know, enough tactical flexibility,

6:56

so that if anything goes wrong, we either you've

6:59

got that balance to kind of to be able

7:01

to kind of recover from that, etc,

7:03

etc. And Operation Dardem, which he's

7:06

planning is part of that it

7:08

is we're no longer going to be rushed, we're going

7:10

to take our time to this, we're going to do

7:12

this properly with with no stone left unturned. However,

7:15

there is an advantage to neutralizing

7:18

the casino position before then, because it

7:20

means we can jump off straight into

7:22

the livery valley, rather than having

7:24

to kind of deal with this as a kind of sort of, you know,

7:26

this, this, this stubborn abscess

7:29

to coin his phrase, it would

7:31

be great to have that neutralize now rather than the

7:34

then and so if the weather allows, that's

7:36

what we're going to do. And we're but

7:38

I'm not going to authorize any further attack

7:40

on casino until we've had at least three

7:42

days of dry weather beforehand. Yeah, yeah,

7:45

right over to you now, Bernard. So

7:48

Bernard Freiberg, who, episode

7:51

before last, I think

7:53

we kind of, you know, laid out that the

7:55

basic issue is that he hasn't

7:58

really got his head round what needs

8:00

to happen here or hasn't really got

8:02

his head round the problem and

8:05

the best way to deal with

8:07

it. He's also got, I mean,

8:09

you could look at it from

8:11

his point of view, he's got

8:13

an extremely pushy and very, very

8:15

self-confident subordinate in the form of

8:17

Francis Shilker, who's been going, you've

8:20

been getting this wrong, boss. You

8:22

need to listen to me, who's been out

8:24

of the picture because he's not been well then returned to the

8:26

picture. And he's done what he, I

8:28

mean, we think we described him as someone

8:30

who tends to agree with the last person he's

8:33

spoken to. Yes, he's also got, I think, in

8:35

fairness to Freiburg, and this is the only

8:37

concession, this is the only concession I'm going

8:40

to give him, is

8:42

the New Zealand Expeditionary

8:44

Force is not in the best of

8:46

shape. And one of the problems is,

8:48

is that they've been, they've been overseas quite a long time.

8:50

They go over in, whenever it is, 1941, they're involved in

8:53

the North African War, or rest of it. And

8:55

then there is what happens, what

8:58

becomes known as the furlough scheme. So there

9:00

are these two furloughs where if you've been

9:02

at a certain length of time, then you

9:04

get to go home for a stretch. And

9:06

the idea is you go home for a

9:08

stretch, you kind of recharge your boots, someone

9:10

else has a go, and then you come

9:12

back out again at a certain time. And

9:14

6000 men are sent home, which

9:17

equates to about 20%. The problem

9:19

is that that 20% that

9:21

goes home are the most

9:23

experienced troops, you know, so these are your

9:25

kind of your backbone of the platoon, the

9:27

platoon sergeants and your senior NCOs. And it

9:30

strips it out of it. And there's no

9:32

question that the New Zealand force in

9:35

the November, December battles are

9:39

fine. But they're kind of

9:41

sort of almost not. They're

9:44

fine, but they they don't do anything

9:46

spectacular. But then I suppose no one does anything

9:48

spectacular in the kind of horrors and winter on

9:51

the Adriatic coast. But what's really

9:53

interesting is suddenly in January and February,

9:55

when they are not doing very much,

9:58

New Zealanders are just holding a line. The

10:00

number of desertions goes

10:03

up absolutely horrendously and

10:05

this is because they've only got time to think and

10:07

they're stuck in the snow in the mud and the

10:09

rain and it's freezing cold in New Zealand and they're

10:11

thinking hang on a minute what the hell is going

10:13

on back at home. What's going back on home is

10:16

that there is the revelation in

10:18

1943 that there's 35,000

10:21

grade A men who

10:23

are still at home who've avoided

10:26

being called up. That's

10:28

because they're in jobs which

10:31

are inverted covers essential industry well and

10:33

not only that. If

10:35

you go if you're back in Wellington there's

10:37

no war on apparently apart from for the

10:39

people whose men are away and

10:42

wages have gone up because there's a

10:44

shortage of manpower there's a consumer boom.

10:47

Life is pretty good if you're not directly involved

10:49

in the war if your family is not directly

10:51

involved in the war and lots of men go

10:53

back and think why the hell should I. What

10:56

the hell would I want to go back

10:58

up that horrible mountainside or whatever and they

11:00

have a motto and the motto is no

11:02

man twice before every man wants. Yeah

11:05

I argue they basically what these guys these veterans

11:07

are doing that coming back and they're seeing these

11:10

middle class types. Who avoided

11:13

the draft doing kind of cushy jobs

11:15

back at home and basically avoiding the

11:17

kind of slaughter that has just been

11:19

described in the opening quote by roger smith is in

11:21

24th britainian. The

11:23

trouble is this filters back to

11:26

the guys at casino in letters and what

11:28

have you and newspapers and news and stuff

11:31

they hear about it and

11:33

so there is a massive rise

11:36

in January and February. In

11:39

desertions and disgruntled and

11:42

there is also a qualitative drop off

11:45

because the six thousand men are no longer

11:47

you know who are the backbone. Is

11:50

that the old timers because they've gone back home

11:52

so the extraordinary thing is is

11:55

that that when alexander creates

11:57

the new zealand call which which for

11:59

my money. is the worst

12:01

decision he makes since arriving as

12:03

commander in chief of the

12:05

Middle East in August 1942. I don't think

12:07

he really puts the foot wrong. I think he's really,

12:10

really fantastic in August 1942 when he

12:12

takes over there and no more retreats

12:14

and all that kind of stuff. He's

12:16

absolutely brilliant when he takes over 18th

12:19

Army Group in February 1943. To need a

12:23

campaign in shape just like that, I think he held

12:25

a pretty good hand in Sicily. And I think the

12:27

first few months of Italy, actually, I think he's done

12:29

really well. I don't think any fault for

12:32

the failures in the Italy campaign lie his feet. I think

12:34

they lie much higher than that, as I've said before. I think

12:37

the one mistake he makes is

12:39

creating the New Zealand Corps. Because

12:42

Freiberg is, to put it

12:44

bluntly, a shit for brains. He's not the

12:47

sharpest tool in the shed. And he's got

12:49

a proven track record of making absolute

12:52

terrible mistakes. CF

12:54

Crete for starters. And

12:57

it's clear that the New Zealand Expeditionary

12:59

Force, Second New Zealand Infantry

13:01

Division, is in a bit

13:03

of a pickle because of the furlough mutiny because of

13:05

drop of morale and all the rest of it. And

13:09

he doesn't have to create a corps out

13:12

of the New Zealanders. It would be much better to

13:14

leave the New Zealanders on the

13:16

Adriatic Coast in a holding position so that

13:18

they're not overstressed and use other units to

13:21

do the hard work here. And

13:24

you could have easily created an Indian Corps, for

13:26

example. Or just called it anything you

13:28

like. You could have created any corps. If you've got a whole 13th

13:30

brigade, you could have used it with 78th

13:32

Division and 4th Indian

13:34

Division or 78th Division and 8th Indian Division. There

13:37

are options. You could

13:39

call it Duke Corps. Duke Corps.

13:41

It could have gone for the acronym early.

13:43

Well, if it had the prescient stuff, yeah,

13:45

exactly. Could have got there before you did.

13:47

But anyway, so for my

13:49

money, this is the worst, worst decision

13:51

because I don't think that the New

13:53

Zealanders are the right people. And it's

13:56

really interesting that in what comes known

13:58

as the Second Battle of Casino. of

14:00

Monte Cassino, which is the Indians up on

14:02

the massive and the Nadees and forced down

14:04

in the zoo. He uses

14:07

two companies. Two

14:09

companies are involved in that attack. That's

14:11

the Marries attacking the 28th Marry Battalion,

14:15

who have much less of a morale issue, which

14:17

is why they're used. And

14:20

it's just, it's a mistake. Why

14:22

is it in that whole second battle of Cassino,

14:25

only two companies are used for

14:27

the attack on the town. And

14:29

that's because Freiburg doesn't trust

14:32

them himself. And when your

14:34

commanding officer doesn't really believe in

14:36

you, you've got a problem. How

14:39

does Clark feel about Freiburg? Well, he doesn't like

14:41

it, but before we get to what Clark feels

14:43

about Freiburg. So you have to then chart the

14:45

coast. So so so blatantly, Freiburg

14:48

has realised that

14:50

Tuka was right about smothering the

14:52

Monte Cassino massive. So he goes,

14:54

Okay, so when I when I

14:57

saw Gertie, I said he said,

14:59

You need to do this and you need, you

15:01

know, high capacity bombs and you need to absolutely

15:03

saturate the whole area. And I didn't do that.

15:05

I said 36 kettie bombers, which is the exact

15:07

opposite of what what Gertie told me. I've

15:10

realised my mistake. I'm not going to make that

15:12

mistake on this battle. Instead, what I'm going to

15:14

do is I'm going to I'm going to saturate

15:16

Cassino town. So I'm

15:18

going to what I want from now on, is

15:21

I want absolute saturation. And I'm going to ram

15:23

that point home to the air people into Clark

15:25

and tell him that the future if you want

15:27

me to attack Cassino town, the only way I'm

15:29

going to do it is if I completely saturate

15:31

it with high capacity bombs, lots of them completely

15:34

destroy the whole thing, lots of armour

15:36

lined up as well. And and then

15:38

we'll sweep in straight after the whole

15:40

thing needs to be properly coordinated, which

15:42

is exactly what you could told him

15:44

to do. But if you remember, Tucker

15:47

is saying the whole Monte Cassino

15:49

idea is a really bad idea. What we really

15:51

should be doing is infiltrating up around Castellani Monte

15:53

Castellani. But if you can't do that, then

15:56

you have to do this. Yeah, they have to obliterate

15:58

the flag. And interestingly, his Preyberg's

16:00

first plan for Operation Dickens

16:02

is Tukka's first plan for

16:04

Monte Cassino. So it

16:06

is to attack north of Monte Castelloni and

16:08

do a river crossing over at the Rapido.

16:11

And again, this gets kicked into touch very

16:13

quick order because of the long

16:16

shadow of the Texans failed crossings

16:18

at the Rapido. And because people

16:20

say things like, yeah, but we haven't really got

16:22

enough mules to go up north of Castelloni, which

16:24

is just absolute nonsense.

16:26

Because the problem with it's not

16:28

about the numbers of fields, it's

16:31

about congestion. So up

16:33

on Monte Cassino, you've got congestion of

16:35

mules because you've only got these one

16:37

or two very narrow tracks. Whereas

16:40

the whole point about north of Castelloni, the

16:42

mountain, although it's higher and the massive there

16:44

is wider to get to, you know, the

16:46

saddle is wider to get to the Via

16:48

Casilina on the Lury Valley, the

16:50

ground is much more open. So

16:52

you haven't got these narrow ridge lines, which means

16:54

that you can attack on a much broader front.

16:56

You don't have to attack on just one company

16:58

front down these narrow ridge lines, which means you

17:00

can overwhelm the enemy. And the

17:03

enemy up there is very, very thin on the ground. It

17:05

is the first Fausch and Rieger regiment to hold

17:07

that bit, who are the ones who have suffered

17:09

the most and are the most battered, which is

17:11

why they've been given the kind of, you know,

17:14

the easiest stretch of the line to hold. Freberg

17:17

just said, basically what Freberg is

17:19

revealing is his total lack of

17:22

comprehension of what it was that that

17:24

Chuka was driving at. And when he

17:26

does start to understand what Chuka is

17:28

driving out in terms of saturation of

17:30

bombs, he's applying it

17:32

to the wrong target. Yeah, it's too

17:35

late as well. And the

17:37

reason it is too late and the reason he

17:39

wants this saturation of bombing is so that he

17:41

the idea is that you saturate

17:43

Casino Town, you completely hammer it

17:46

totally. You then send the Indian

17:48

divisions because they're the mountain experts,

17:50

but also then you're preserving your

17:53

New Zealand troops up

17:55

onto the up onto to kill to

17:57

get get Castle Hill, which overlooks the

17:59

town and get an attack. up towards

18:01

the abbey on that south steep face,

18:04

which is basically like Monte

18:06

Belvedere for the French, except that on

18:08

the top now you've got lots of

18:10

Alshonmiega bristling with machine guns and

18:13

mortars who are not going to cut

18:15

and run. So it's a similarly suicidal

18:17

attack, but with a much tougher

18:20

enemy proposition that you're facing. So

18:23

it's a completely bonkers plan. But

18:25

what he's trying to do here is save

18:27

the lives of his New Zealander troops, who

18:29

he knows are fragile. Which he knows

18:31

are fragile. I mean, when you said when

18:33

a general doesn't trust the people below him,

18:36

that's a bad thing. Clark

18:38

doesn't trust Freiburg. So

18:40

I mean, the thing he says is the more

18:43

I see of Freiburg, the more disgusted I am

18:45

with his actions. He may be an extremely courageous

18:47

individual, but he has no brains, has been spoiled,

18:49

demands everything in sight, and altogether is most difficult

18:51

to handle. I mean, that's absolutely spot on. You

18:53

can't argue with any of that. But I mean,

18:55

but bloody hell, you know, if Freiburg doesn't trust

18:57

the people beneath him, then Clark doesn't trust the

18:59

people beneath him either. But but but Clark has

19:01

been told right a go when when Frobo turns up,

19:04

he's been told by Alexander, you got to tread very,

19:06

very carefully with him because this is this is political.

19:08

Yeah, which is a thing we talked about in

19:10

the last episode is that politics is politics is

19:12

often the thing here. And there's lots

19:14

of Fauci and Jager. There's not that many.

19:17

No, but but in for that position 1700,

19:20

that 1700 Fauci and

19:22

Jager means what? I don't

19:24

know, and then the

19:26

FG42s plastering the place with an FG42s.

19:30

Yeah, maybe maybe that's something like that. But but

19:32

yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, it means a

19:34

lot. But but but the main point is, they're

19:36

all Germans. They're all Germans. They're not they're not from

19:38

Austria. They're not from, you know, they're

19:41

not from from Czechoslovakia or they're not

19:43

Alsatians or whatever. Alsatians?

19:45

No, none of those.

19:47

Not even Bidded Collies either. You know,

19:49

so so the Germans are true, they're sort of

19:51

slightly more indoctrinated than most they've got, they've gotten

19:53

a spree decor, which is is absolutely evident, even

19:56

if the kind of training doesn't quite back that

19:58

up. And they're not going to run away. That

20:00

is the bottom line and they're led by

20:02

incredibly aggressive commanders like Harmon Schultz

20:05

and of course the divisional commander Richard hydric

20:07

you know so so you know they're just

20:10

cut from a different cloth. Not

20:12

that rich is hydric for those of you wondering

20:14

i'm a different hydric a different

20:17

one yeah i'm so good weather

20:19

on the 12th of 13th of

20:21

march 14th is also okay so

20:23

the code bradman batting tomorrow which

20:25

is. I

20:27

mean I love you of

20:29

course you do. And

20:33

then what happens is I mean I think this is

20:35

interesting is there's a bomb line isn't

20:37

there and so the news news

20:39

editors withdraw behind the to the safety line

20:41

to get out of the way of the.

20:44

bombers, which I think is

20:46

really, really interesting so already you're kind of you're

20:48

kind of seeding ground you gotta make that up

20:50

now, haven't you. Yeah the other the other problem

20:53

about attacking casino town is that basically got the

20:55

railway line which is coming from the east. So

20:58

that coming to the south of the town so

21:00

curves into sometime that's on a raised embankment and

21:02

that's the line that the marry were taking in

21:04

the foot in the second battle of casino. When

21:07

they sent those two companies down the problem

21:09

of that of course it's an even narrower

21:11

front than than it is on

21:13

a ridge line on snakes edge or

21:16

monty castelloni. So you're you're you're

21:18

can I just funneled into into that approach road

21:20

everywhere else around casino is waterlogged so there

21:23

is no other approach road apart from the

21:25

north where there's these two roads coming down.

21:28

Which is the route that the hundred and thirty third infantry

21:30

from the 34 red bulls were

21:33

taking back in January and very beginning of

21:35

February. So you're you're access

21:37

of the boxes but very small the problem is

21:39

if you're talking north you got these hills you

21:41

got castle hill. Overlooking and

21:43

then you got the series of you

21:45

got the road going up to the abbey which

21:48

is a series of switchbacks and hairpins. And

21:50

then you got this not sticking out

21:52

just but just beneath the crest of

21:54

monty casino. Which is

21:57

where the cable car was built and that

21:59

was just. It's mantle by the Germans in

22:01

I think October or certainly by November anyway. And

22:04

it's still one of the cable car struts

22:06

pylons. It's still sticking out and silhouetted against

22:08

the sky. And it looks like a

22:10

gibbet. So it's known as Hangman's Hill, but it's not

22:12

Hangman's Hill. It's like a little sort of rocky knoll

22:14

sticking out. And so the fourth

22:16

Indian division, and this time it's the fifth

22:19

Indian infantry brigade, are given the

22:21

job of first of all clearing

22:23

Castle Hill, then taking various high

22:26

points where there are these sort of switchbacks on

22:28

the road. And finally also taking Hangman's

22:31

Hill as a jump off point before you then attack

22:33

the abbey. But as I say, you're attacking

22:35

it up the kind of steepest side, the

22:37

steepest approach and overlooking

22:39

the town. And this is all about watching

22:41

the flank of the New

22:43

Zealanders as they go into the town, which

22:46

has then been demolished. And the high idea is that

22:49

you saturate the town and you're

22:51

through and clear by that evening. So

22:53

the infantry is just doing a mopping up job. So

22:56

what Freiburg is trying to do is protect the arse

22:58

of his New Zealand troops. Yeah, in

23:01

a very big way. Let's do the first

23:03

day of the battle and then we'll go

23:05

to the break. So it starts off at

23:08

8.30 the morning, 15th of March. I

23:11

mean, 992 tons of bombs are delivered. I

23:14

mean, that's... Yep. 164 B-24s,

23:16

114 B-17s, 105 B-26s, 72 B-25s. That's

23:21

a lot. And then another 260 heavies

23:23

are meant to come in the afternoon and they're stopped

23:25

because of the cloud and smoke coming off the target.

23:28

Yeah. And I mean, there's film footage of this

23:31

because everyone watches from a hill a

23:34

few miles away. It

23:36

is the most extraordinary thing. I mean, it

23:38

is absolutely brutal and it is

23:42

saturation bombing. It is the first time the

23:44

Allies have tried saturation bombing of a town

23:48

or a city or any kind

23:50

of built up area. And you're

23:53

getting into the whole sort of fibular stuff, fighting

23:55

up and build up areas and

23:57

the problems of having short horizons.

23:59

stuff if you've got lots of buildings in the way. The truth

24:01

of the matter is though, is that casino

24:04

is already broken. So there

24:07

is not a single civilian living there. It's been

24:09

cleared out the previous autumn. It

24:11

is a ghost town already. It is already a

24:14

town that is shattered. There's barely

24:16

a building that hasn't been hit.

24:19

So this is the coup de grâce

24:21

of a town that has

24:24

already been destroyed. Even

24:27

so, there is something about the

24:30

saturation of casino town which

24:32

sits, I think, very uncomfortably.

24:34

It is so

24:36

brutal in its destruction.

24:38

The photographs of

24:40

casino in the autumn of

24:42

1943 and the photographs of

24:44

casino in the middle of

24:47

March 1944, it's really

24:49

shocking. I mean, it is just completely wiped

24:52

from the face of the earth. But

24:54

the Falsjim Jäger aren't though, are they? Well, a lot

24:56

of them are. But 160 out of 300 of the

24:58

second battalion of Falsjim Jäger regiment,

25:02

which is Madludvig Hellman's mob

25:05

who we met in Sicily and Primisoli and

25:07

all that. 160 of them are killed, but

25:10

not all of them, no. I knew a

25:12

guy called Jip Klein, he

25:14

was an engineer, he was in the engineer, the

25:16

pioneer battalion of the first Falsjim

25:18

Jäger division. They were doing mainly what

25:20

they were doing was building tunnels, connecting

25:23

cellars so that you could go from, you

25:25

could protect the road, you could protect the

25:27

Via Casa Lina, Highway 6 that runs from

25:30

the east into the town, then does

25:32

a 90 degree dogleg and turns southwards

25:35

into the Liri Valley. All along

25:37

there, you've then got the houses on

25:41

the kind of lower slopes of Monte

25:44

Cassino. And so the connection

25:46

is between is under the road between

25:48

cellars and up into those up into

25:50

those higher buildings. So you can then

25:52

emerge into kind of machine gun posts

25:55

and cover the Via Casa Lina. They've made a

25:57

fortress of it, basically. They've made a fortress of

25:59

it. in seen underground fortress i

26:01

mean think of mass in garza yeah and

26:03

so then there's artillery at midday

26:05

the key we start

26:08

moving forward with tanks in a

26:10

in accompaniment but they obviously they

26:12

get stuck in the they get stuck in the

26:14

town but they get about two-thirds

26:16

of it they get through very quickly the first two-thirds

26:19

they get up to the vehicle as lean or is it coming from the

26:21

east but you can't be two-thirds pregnant

26:23

can you i mean this is the thing they need

26:25

to take the heart anything i understand they have to

26:28

take the whole town don't they and they don't and

26:30

this is the this is the thing when you know

26:32

so often that if you're held up you held up if you

26:35

held up at all you held up

26:37

forever in these circumstances right because getting started

26:39

again is the really hard part um so

26:41

first fourth essex take castle hill but not

26:43

until the early hours of the of the

26:45

next day so sort

26:47

of in the middle of the night

26:49

first six rash putana rifles they're attacking

26:51

point two three six early on the

26:54

16th so there's a dog leg there's

26:56

a hairpin by the castle and

26:58

then it goes around again and then it comes back so

27:01

point two three six is the next hairpin above

27:03

castle hill they put in a tap but they

27:05

have to withdraw to castle hill and i mean

27:08

this is interesting that their headquarters is wiped

27:10

out which is bad luck i wonder if

27:12

that's because they have a radio set with

27:14

a 12-foot high radio aerial and

27:17

have unfortunately made themselves

27:19

visible to you know people looking yeah

27:22

one of the other problems is is is

27:24

that the the first night gurkis which is

27:26

the third battalion of the of the the

27:28

fifth indian infantry brigade they're moving

27:30

up from from kara the village of kara which is just

27:32

to the north sort of just just beneath kind of monty

27:35

belvedere takes them five

27:37

hours to get to their start position because

27:40

the routes down are clogged by new zealanders

27:43

getting in the way and so they

27:45

have to fight their way through congestion they then

27:47

do and then then two of

27:49

their companies just vanish overnight no

27:51

one knows where they are until at dawn

27:53

they suddenly see them they're on hangman's hill

27:56

they've got to they've got to the cable

27:58

they've got there but then the weather in

28:00

intervenes because the weather gets a vote, casting

28:02

vote and it's torrential rain. Yeah,

28:04

it's absolutely to eat hooves it

28:06

down. Yeah. And

28:08

so it's not the sort of

28:10

straightforward we batter them. We batter

28:12

the Abbey, we batter the town

28:15

and then we simply, you

28:17

know, the Germans turn the town and on we move. That

28:19

has not happened. We will take a

28:21

very quick break and then we'll be back with the 16th

28:23

of March to find out how much change

28:25

there is by the end of day two. See

28:28

you in a second. Welcome

28:40

back to We Have Ways To Make You Talk. That

28:43

was the 15th of March, the first

28:45

day of Freiburg's attempt to prize the

28:47

Germans out of Monte Cassino and

28:50

it's gone. It's been a curious egg, isn't it?

28:52

It's gone well in. It's good in part, isn't

28:54

it? Is the truth? Yeah, as I say, they've

28:57

got up to the Carlefia Casalinos. It's coming from

28:59

the west around what used to be known as

29:01

a continental hotel. It's obviously just

29:03

rubble now. The Indians have done really,

29:05

really well. It's just going to show

29:07

their prowess as mountain fighters. I mean,

29:09

the infiltration of the first knife gurk

29:11

is up on the Hagenwens Hill is

29:13

absolutely astonishing. But, you know, this is what

29:16

happens also when you can move stealthily and when your enemy can't

29:18

see you. Because one of the things, actually, the advantages of going

29:20

up a really, really steep hill is that

29:22

quite often your enemy don't have the angle of

29:24

fire. If they're in dug-in positions, they can fire

29:26

down to the town, but they can't actually fire

29:29

down the slopes because the angle is too great.

29:32

And they're not in the right positions and all the rest

29:34

of it. And it's an amazing achievement. And they stay out

29:36

there. The Germans don't push them

29:38

off. Day two

29:40

is one of those days. It's a

29:42

bit like Fish Fang day two and

29:44

Saitensprung day two. If

29:47

it hasn't worked on the first day, chances are

29:49

it's not going to really work on the second

29:51

day either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the amount of

29:53

surprise has gone. You've now got

29:55

your landscape that's been obliterated by bombers.

29:58

You know where you are. It's wet and miserable. cold

30:01

and the only way you're gonna really really

30:03

push through is by the new zealand infantry

30:06

really really really hammering

30:08

and being very very aggressive

30:11

and the truth of the

30:13

matter is that just not

30:15

really because. By the

30:17

end of play on the 17th of march

30:19

day three the new zealands

30:22

of lost only hundred thirty men

30:24

and twelve tanks. Right

30:27

you know against. You

30:29

know hundred and fifty germans so

30:32

it's kind of i don't want to

30:34

call for any sort of you know this is the

30:36

new zealand is but but there is a kind of

30:38

feeling that they're not quite. There's

30:41

gun how is they might be but they're

30:44

up against people who have prepared a

30:46

fantastic it's a fantastic defensive scenario

30:48

isn't it if you're the. You're

30:51

the fashion here it's it's ideal

30:53

isn't it if well it's ideal

30:55

if what you want to do is fight to

30:57

the last round and make the enemy pay which

30:59

is which is what they're doing right. Yeah

31:02

you should you should have you know with that amount

31:04

of you know with a whole division. I

31:06

don't know what time to get the promise you can

31:09

get the tanks in because the only time to go

31:11

into the tanks are going on the afternoon the 15th

31:13

because. Everything else is too long

31:15

you can't get through the ball that the days come with

31:18

probably could sort of swarm out with men but

31:20

this congestion is a lack of leadership there's a

31:22

lack of will is all that kind of stuff

31:25

you know the the reinforcements all the time in

31:27

this battle are really slow at coming up. It's

31:30

almost like there's no so

31:32

urgency there's no drive you know they're not kind

31:34

of like right we got exploited of course what

31:37

happens of course is is that. You

31:39

know overnight on the on the 16th you know

31:42

they managed to get some more troops down

31:44

the you know they would shift some troops from

31:46

the abbey area down into the town. That move

31:48

down and then eventually for baby

31:50

often customer and say right you know you need

31:52

reinforcements and hydroxide yeah okay i'm gonna reinforce i'm

31:54

not having them in the town will put them

31:56

on the site will put hundred fifty pounds of

31:58

grenadier infantry. You know

32:00

up on some of the quiet spots and I'll shift my my

32:02

fashion make around you know I'm not having that. I'm

32:05

sorry just it becomes you

32:08

know day three the seventy for March it's

32:10

just a kind of you know it's like

32:12

a slow, slow they're

32:14

making kind of very very slow

32:17

headway in casino. They do

32:19

kind of push out and get the

32:21

railway station and they're closing in on that

32:23

kind of continental hotel which is right that's what

32:25

you first the way through. But

32:27

they're not making a decisive breakthrough and

32:31

the enemy defenses solidifying rather

32:33

than loosening. Yeah your

32:36

flies on fly paper in that environment on

32:38

you in that in that landscape if you're

32:40

not careful. Yeah it's pretty

32:42

horrendous Saturday the 18th of March

32:45

day for the Germans I mean

32:47

the other things the Germans are counter attacking there

32:49

trying to win back castle hill this you know

32:51

they can't help themselves. Is the first for the

32:53

six in there I'm meeting bill Hawkins he was

32:55

involved in that he was lovely chat. Yeah

32:58

and I and again it just always shows you

33:00

this just so much harder counter attacking

33:02

that it is attacking. I mean rather

33:05

than it is defending that's that's the point defense

33:07

defense is easy. I'm straight forward

33:09

you know where you are you know what your parameters are you

33:11

have got to expose yourself you can hide. But

33:13

the money attack you've got to get up

33:15

out of those positions of hiding and move

33:17

in on open ground so it all becomes

33:19

night fighting stuff really this is where it's

33:21

all kicking off is at night. Well

33:25

because I mean it's the thing we talked about the last

33:28

episode is that you know that the defender doesn't need to

33:30

take the initiative in that regard. No

33:32

if you're attacking it all gets we

33:35

talked about this before in Normandy attacking is

33:38

attacking is hard defending is

33:40

the defending is the way to go if

33:43

what you're trying to do is hold the other side up. Then

33:45

the Sunday the 19th day five Freiberg

33:47

decides on a he wants to coordinate

33:49

attacks rather than have this sort of

33:51

chipping chipping away thing so fourth

33:53

Indian division to reinforce the gherkas on hangman's

33:56

hill and then assault the abbey and then

33:58

a force of tanks also to scale. the

34:00

Cavendish Road are getting around the back of the massif.

34:03

We're talking about getting around the back of things

34:05

now rather than simply bashing ourselves against

34:07

them. Yes, well, I mean, this is the Cavendish Road,

34:09

which has been forced out, which has been hewn

34:12

out of the... Basically, it's a mule track that

34:14

has been widened to be able to take a

34:16

tank up there. It's the most

34:18

extraordinary achievement. This is done up

34:21

to the start of the battle by the Indian

34:23

sappers from the fourth

34:25

Indian division. It is an absolutely

34:27

incredible achievement. Interesting, you can still walk

34:29

it to this day. It's still

34:32

there just about. It's a

34:34

really good walk to do. The

34:36

problem with it is that

34:38

from the engineering feet point, where

34:40

it's been blasted out of the

34:42

side of the hill, that's the

34:44

really, really impressive point from

34:46

an engineering perspective. That bit

34:48

all works fine because you're out of sight for

34:51

most of it. The problem

34:53

is, you then emerge between Monte

34:56

Castelloni and Snakeshead Ridge or

34:58

the Colley Maola into

35:00

the first of a series of

35:02

mountain pastures. It's one of these

35:05

weird mountain plateaus up there. We

35:07

even find a sandwich between the

35:09

ridge. You could advance up there,

35:11

and that's quite wide and open, and that's all fine.

35:14

Then there's this weird bottleneck

35:16

at the end of Phantom Ridge, which is one of

35:18

the spurs that comes off Castelloni, before

35:21

you reach Albanesa, which is this weird monastery

35:24

buildings and farm beyond that.

35:27

The bottleneck is just, you can't do it because

35:29

the bottleneck is at the crest. It suddenly

35:32

narrows as it rises. At

35:34

some point, you've got to go over a

35:36

very narrow stretch and then drop down again.

35:40

Obviously, the moment you go through that, you're

35:43

in shtuk. You're

35:45

in trouble. It's interesting. What

35:47

Heijrich then has planned is a strong

35:49

counter-attack. I think it's fascinating. They just

35:51

cannot help themselves, can they? He's going

35:53

to bring in a fresh battalion of

35:55

4 Falsimjäger. They're going to attack first

35:58

light on the 19th of November. Yeah,

36:00

but let's also say, you know, when we're talking

36:02

about a first battalion, we're talking about 80 men,

36:04

we're not talking about a hundred. But of course,

36:06

but this determination to I mean, you

36:08

know, he's gonna waste

36:11

of those people, aren't they? It's just this,

36:13

it's this, you're in a

36:15

strong position here, why weaken it, you know,

36:17

because in the strong position depends on well

36:20

motivated soldiers. So don't spaff

36:22

them up the wall as to use

36:24

a john sonyan expression about on

36:27

a counter attack that's not going to work.

36:29

And it's not going to work, is it? This is

36:31

the thing, you know, well, it sort of works.

36:34

It sort of works because it does cock up

36:36

the fourth Indians plans. Yes, it discombobulates fourth Indian,

36:38

but it's but it's not like, what's it actually

36:40

going to achieve? Well, I've got a better plan,

36:42

which is put lots of machine guns and mortars

36:44

all around the Abbey at the top and try

36:47

and come and take us if you like. Yeah.

36:50

And we'll when you attack us to

36:52

take the monetary Hill, we'll

36:55

just shoot at you rather than us getting

36:57

out of our foxholes and our MG posts and

36:59

coming to get you. It's very, very, I mean,

37:01

it's the mentality is strange, isn't it? But

37:04

as you say, fourth Indian, then they cancel. Interesting,

37:07

isn't it like a scrap of a

37:09

battalion holding up a division in that instance,

37:12

the New Zealand that they attack the continental hotel,

37:14

that doesn't work. Tanks are

37:16

sent in and they take point 593. But

37:18

by the time it's done, seventh brigade have been written

37:21

down too much to make the most of it. So

37:23

the lead Sherman tank hits, it's my blocks,

37:25

the blocks of bottleneck and it's enough. Yeah,

37:29

that's the end of that. So all that effort,

37:31

all that time, you know, it's just it's just it's bonkers.

37:33

And this is why it's so frustrating because

37:36

there is another plan, which is to go

37:38

further north around Monty North between Castelloni and

37:41

I mean, I'm actually gonna go and walk

37:43

this in May, because I really want to

37:45

feel completely 100% satisfied that I've got

37:47

this right. But by looking at it

37:49

on the ground and looking at it from I mean, I've been up on

37:51

Collies and Angelo, I've been up

37:54

on Castelloni before, I've looked across, I've

37:56

looked every which way you can on

37:59

3D Google Earth. You

38:01

can see these slug-like

38:04

narrow ridges going across the Monte Cassino

38:06

spur, Monte Castelloni leading into Collies and

38:09

Angelo and forking off into Phantom Ridge,

38:11

and then obviously the spur which ends

38:13

with the kind of rocky knoll of

38:16

0.593. You

38:19

can see the land, and it's

38:21

just so much more open further north, north

38:23

of Castelloni. That is the route. That's what

38:25

you want to take. This idea that there

38:27

aren't enough mules, but it's just absolute horseshit.

38:30

That's finding a reason not to do something

38:32

rather than finding a solution. It's

38:36

absolutely crazy. It's interesting though, because after

38:39

a long stretch they've been stuck here, you might

38:42

start finding reasons not to do things. The idea

38:44

that it's impossible might creep in, right? Yeah,

38:47

but the impossible bit is sort

38:49

of snakeshead ridge and the Cassino

38:51

spur and going through the town.

38:53

I mean, the town, the attack

38:55

on the town is clearly a

38:57

one trick. It's a one-card operation.

39:00

Saturate the town, send the

39:02

troops in, sweep through, be out the other

39:04

side by 6.30 that night. If

39:07

that hasn't worked, it's not going to work.

39:10

You're done. It's battering at the

39:12

same brick wall, but with

39:14

diminishing assets. That's the problem. Which

39:16

is after all what we talked

39:18

about in the last episode with the Germans attacking the salient

39:20

in Anteos. Day

39:23

one, unless it works on day one, it's not

39:25

going to work. So then the

39:27

night of the 19th, 20th, the Germans reinforce, 150

39:29

pounds of going to the idea they come in

39:32

and the Falsch and Bieger are redeployed to infiltrate

39:34

into the town along the mountain side. So

39:37

suddenly you've increased the number of Germans that are in

39:39

Cassino rubble. Yeah, and their artillery

39:41

and mortise become more active. So the

39:43

Germans are increasing in confidence here is

39:45

what this tells us actually. The

39:47

Germans are feeling more confident about what they're doing and

39:50

they're prepared to... Because after all, the minute you start

39:52

firing your artillery or mortise, maybe you're

39:54

going to get counter-mortared and

39:56

counter-artillery. So they clearly got confidence in

39:59

what they're doing. doing to be

40:01

prepared to risk those guns and mortars. I

40:03

mean, it's very interesting, isn't it, that what

40:06

you've got is the confidence draining out the

40:08

allies into the Germans. Yes, there's a little

40:10

of that going on. If there's a quantity

40:12

of confidence to be had. And then the

40:15

20th of March, day six, Alex

40:17

has a look, decides if there's

40:19

no improvement within 36 hours, he's going

40:21

to call it off and

40:23

consolidate the ground gained. Which, to be

40:25

fair, is not insignificant. Holding

40:28

Castle Hill, that's important. Holding two-thirds

40:30

of the town, when you've got to jump

40:32

up. That is better than having none

40:34

of the town. It

40:37

dries out and the pothole's empty and you

40:39

get the bulldozers in and stuff. So that's

40:41

not useful. It

40:46

hasn't been a total waste of time. It's

40:50

not working. That is a

40:52

problem. I think Alexander's

40:55

point is, we've got to be careful.

40:57

We don't want to deplete two

40:59

of our divisions here. Here we

41:02

might need for diadem. And let's circle

41:04

back. There's been a morale problem

41:06

in Italy for quite a while. If

41:09

you bang your head against a brick wall and

41:11

there is an argument that a lot of

41:13

the issues that Kiwis are having here is

41:15

because of a morale problem and because of

41:17

an extended morale problem, where these guys

41:20

in their mailbags, they're going to have their wives going, there's

41:22

a mutiny going on back here. Why are you still there?

41:25

People have had enough. They're going to know about it even

41:27

though the New Zealand government did

41:29

the damnedest to conceal the furlough mutiny.

41:31

But they wouldn't have kept it out

41:33

to people's mailbags. I'm sure of it.

41:36

And this is Jonathan Vanell's research, isn't it?

41:39

And so if you're Alex and you're

41:41

thinking, we just got to be careful,

41:43

we have just got to be careful,

41:45

morale-wise. If you lose too

41:47

much, the men might think

41:49

there's no point. You're never going to win. So

41:52

you can see there's lots of reasons

41:54

to stop. And also, there

41:56

is this interesting that the Allies are now

41:58

able to consider stopping. start

42:01

this up to this point it's

42:03

been about push push push push push regardless is

42:05

alex going no actually you know what we

42:07

can afford to stop now. What

42:10

we're better off stopping with better off pausing

42:13

so on the twenty third of march it's called

42:15

off first night girl cuz i recall from hangman's

42:17

hill imagine. Yeah

42:20

maybe something that they've been doing a kind

42:22

of feeling sparks act up

42:24

on the up on on hammons hill. So

42:27

the refusing to budge and hanging on in

42:30

there and in the. Sorry

42:32

that's off and the truth

42:34

is that the jobs covered get out of them because

42:37

it is this kind of little no that kind of

42:39

stuck on the sides and the edges and behind it

42:41

they can hide quite quite well in the rock of

42:43

the just can't get to them. Obviously

42:45

you know they they they've suffered casualties and get me wrong

42:47

i mean they have i mean it is

42:49

an amazing effort to get up there it

42:52

really really is extraordinary to get to get there in the

42:54

first place. Yeah what

42:56

are the losses from this battle. Title

42:58

losses all casualties and that includes

43:01

sort of you know we didn't want

43:03

to be is four thousand men.

43:06

Right from two divisions which is a

43:08

lot but i thought i you know the interesting thing is

43:10

it is the first bit by the end of the seventeenth

43:12

of march the new zenas have only lost one hundred thirty

43:14

men which is not very many at all. No

43:17

it's obviously further treated the the the

43:19

german's you know first fowls from jager

43:21

is is bashed again i mean. It's

43:24

not good for the spouse of a division at

43:26

all i mean they like being bashed let's face

43:28

it let's face it if you if

43:30

you're first person you really want. Is

43:33

to be smashed up by the allies and

43:37

that's your bag look across the rubble to

43:39

one another with your true and say here

43:41

we go again hands. And

43:44

you know one more time for the fatherland

43:46

surely i mean what else what's motivating them

43:48

these guys are completely become just

43:50

war people from that they're just what they

43:53

are they are worried well interesting i mean

43:55

what is one of the very exciting people

43:57

we got coming on at some point and

43:59

who is coming to you. we have waste

44:02

fest is Magnus Paul who is a German

44:04

academic and who has written a book on

44:06

casino and which he basically rubbish is the

44:08

reputation of the Fauci Mega which is he

44:11

says a basically they're a there the Goebbels propaganda thing

44:13

and not you we can't end up with the thing

44:15

is we're gonna end up with a point where absolutely

44:17

everyone's crap yeah well they're

44:19

clearly not crap they're not crap compared to

44:22

compared to others and disciplines

44:24

are motivated I think that's the point I think I think

44:26

that's the key people use

44:28

sort of the term elite troops just a

44:30

little bit too freely a bit too

44:33

freely yeah and and you know there's obviously there's a lot

44:35

of guys who are coming through who coming

44:37

into the ranks who aren't particularly brilliantly

44:40

well trained or particularly amazing

44:43

but what you've got is you have still got this

44:45

card you got you got people like Rudolf Kratzert who

44:47

who was you may remember was

44:49

the guy who was his troops kind of got shoved

44:51

up and you know he had 236 men and

44:54

four officers and they were put

44:56

onto Albonetta and point five nine three and kind

44:58

of resisted everything that came their way you know

45:00

these and and that's because he's very clear-headed he's

45:02

absolutely you'd follow him to battle every single time

45:04

you know he's one of you what you're going

45:06

higher types but they're also you

45:09

can't put a price on experience and that's the

45:11

big thing that there's enough in the first Fashion

45:14

Ego Division still to really to

45:16

be able to kind of sort of osmosis

45:18

effect kind of through those recruits and create

45:20

a kind of a culture and a spreed

45:22

of core and all restaurant that absolutely exists

45:25

and they're not having to but they're not having to

45:27

attack and they're having to attack

45:29

you know so we see well I say you're

45:32

when you're doing counterattacks on Apostle Hill or whatever

45:34

well so clearly Monte Cassino

45:36

unfinished business that's the that's the the

45:38

truth of it they tried

45:41

but they failed join us in our next episode and hopefully

45:43

you're listening to this on our Apple Channel and that means

45:45

you you can listen to all sort of one great big

45:47

splurge I mean god knows how long a walk you'd have

45:49

to go to listen to this all in one go I

45:52

mean get off what whatever you do to get off

45:54

that exercise bike if you put this series on and

45:56

you're on the exercise bike get off now because there's no way

45:58

we're gonna You know, you're

46:01

gonna do yourself a mischief. Anyway, if you're

46:03

on the Apple podcast where you can subscribe

46:05

and do the advertising or join us on

46:07

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46:09

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46:11

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46:13

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46:16

of course come to our festival on the 18th, 21st

46:18

of July, we have ways to

46:20

make you talk fest where you can shake

46:23

hands with a spicer pint and say,

46:25

you know what, I think you're a bit harsh

46:27

on Bernard Freiberg, so I'm fully expecting the Anzac

46:29

Cove Jake Hayward to do if he joins us

46:31

this summer. Anyway, we will see

46:33

you all very, very soon.

46:36

Thanks for listening and goodbye. Farewell.