0:00

This is the BBC. This

0:03

podcast is supported by advertising outside

0:05

the UK. 2023

0:30

work recap. This year you've been to 127 sync

0:32

meetings. You

0:34

spent 56 minutes searching for files and

0:36

almost missed eight deadlines. Yikes! 2024

0:40

can and should sound different. With

0:44

monday.com you can work together easily, collaborate

0:46

and share data, files and updates. So

0:48

all work happens in one place and

0:50

everyone's on the same page. Go

0:53

to monday.com or tap the banner to learn

0:55

more. BBC

1:03

Sounds. Music radio podcasts.

1:08

Hello and welcome to You're Dead To Me, the

1:10

Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My

1:12

name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public

1:14

historian, author and broadcaster. And today we

1:17

are packing our pencil cases and protractors

1:19

and hopping aboard the school bus. Back

1:21

to ancient Greece for a maths lesson

1:23

with Mr Triangle himself. No, not the

1:25

rock. Pythagoras! And to help

1:27

us square our hypothesis, whatever that is, we

1:29

have two very special guests in History Corner.

1:32

She's Professor of Classics at Durham University and

1:34

a fellow of the British Academy. She researches

1:37

class, ethnicity and gender in classical texts, is

1:39

an expert on ancient Greek theatre and philosophy.

1:41

You might have read one of her many

1:43

excellent books or heard on any number of

1:45

brilliant Radio 4 programmes, including... Natalie Haynes stands

1:48

up for the classics and great lives. It's

1:50

Professor Edith Hall. Welcome Edith. I'm absolutely

1:52

thrilled to be here to triangulate

1:54

with you two. Oh, lovely joke.

1:56

Look at that. There's a lot of

1:58

beautiful triangle puns I'm not. I'm going to be

2:00

able to keep up with here. I'm going to have

2:03

to decide what my angle is on this early. I

2:06

tried, I've not born a dad. I just have to

2:08

try to earn that level.

2:10

Honorary dad pun, yes. All

2:12

right, well, we've given away a little bit there,

2:14

but in comedy corner, she barely needs an introduction.

2:16

She's a comedian, actor, and writer. You've seen her

2:18

all over the telly on Taskmaster, Frankie Boy's New

2:20

World Order, The Horns section, New Game and Sandman.

2:22

You'll know her from any number of podcasts, including

2:24

our own. She's your Dead to

2:26

Me royalty. It's Desiree Birch. Welcome back, Desiree. Oh,

2:29

it's such a pleasure to be here. This is where

2:31

I get all of my learning done right. So

2:34

thank you guys for inviting me back so I can understand

2:36

the man behind the mask, or I guess the one

2:38

mask. It was mostly just the geometry, right? The

2:41

one mask. Slightly rare one,

2:44

this one. You pitched Pythagoras to us. Well,

2:46

yes, simply because I remember

2:49

doing an educational show about

2:52

Zora Neale Hurston, where

2:54

she was referencing Pythagoras. And I was just like, he's

2:56

around a lot. And

2:58

I guess when you're involved in triangles and

3:00

all these magical things, you're around a lot.

3:02

But I don't know enough about who commits

3:04

their lives to doing something like this. So

3:07

I was just like, I heard he was

3:09

bonkers. Let's find out together. All right,

3:11

well, I think you're gonna find some pretty

3:13

bonkers stuff today. Fantastic. There's some definite kooky

3:15

things. So what do you know? So

3:23

where do I have it going, guys? Well, now

3:25

a lovely listener at home might know about today's

3:27

subject, and I'm gonna bet most of you know

3:29

Pythagoras as a man. A man

3:31

in STEM, as we would say in modern

3:33

parlance. We all have to memorize his theorem

3:35

about triangles in school. Say it with me

3:38

now. A squared plus B squared. No, A

3:40

squared plus B squared equals C squared. He's

3:42

the muse of the hypotenuse, the OG Try

3:44

Guy. But what about his actual life story?

3:47

That's a lot less well known. There aren't

3:49

many Pythagoras movies. Well, he does

3:51

feature in Assassin's Creed Odyssey as

3:53

one of the drivers of the story to

3:56

make you go on a questify. And it's

3:58

Pythagoras, I guess. I don't know. now my

4:00

boyfriend's separate and he's like you're still saying

4:03

it wrong and no matter how many times I tried to

4:05

evolve it he's like no it's still wrong but anyway he

4:07

did help me go on a quest to find out

4:09

theorems or so I don't know I just enjoy

4:11

playing the video game that's that's the other thing

4:13

I know about that's our first ever intervention in

4:16

the so what do you know which I like

4:18

a factual a fact check from a comedian in

4:20

the so what do you know hooray excellent well

4:22

done Desiree you're right he is in that game

4:24

although pithagoras I don't know how to pronounce yet

4:26

I mean the expert in the room pithagoras is

4:28

pretty good pithagoras all right okay are you all

4:30

right I'm just gonna do it with epic pithagoras

4:33

did I do the hand you did the hand

4:35

so so the key question for today is who

4:37

is the man behind the triangles what were his

4:39

big philosophical ideas because he's a philosopher too and

4:42

why was he so obsessed with beans my

4:45

boyfriend's also obsessed with beans that's so strange I

4:47

don't know if that's a Mediterranean thing I mean my

4:49

boyfriend loves beans I'll be surprised if it's the same

4:52

reason but I find out okay

4:54

Edith let's start the podcast then when and

4:57

where with pithagoras as we're now deciding to

4:59

call him where was he born okay

5:01

so let's imagine that we're

5:04

in the eastern Aegean Sea

5:06

off the southwest corner of

5:08

what's now Turkey we're in huge

5:10

cultural contact with everything in

5:12

the eastern Mediterranean we're in a very

5:14

cosmopolitan environment we're actually in party

5:17

island of Samos it's not now

5:20

held to be one of the Greek party islands but it was

5:22

then it had amazing fish it has still

5:24

the most amazing wine and this little

5:26

boy is born maybe about 570 but

5:30

we can't be absolutely exact that's

5:33

exactly the point in time when what they

5:35

called the Ionian philosophers because that strip

5:37

of western turkeys called Ionia were inventing

5:39

philosophy they were inventing rational medicine they

5:41

were inventing physics they were doing all

5:43

kinds of things whether trying to understand

5:46

the world without God in it for

5:48

the very first time we know

5:50

very little about his childhood he

5:52

certainly traveled around possibly to Egypt

5:55

he had several different teachers and contacts he did

5:57

go back to Samos got into some kind of

5:59

political political trouble and then went off

6:02

to Croton which was in

6:04

Greek southern Italy. Southern Italy had been colonised

6:06

by the Greeks. He's on the toe of

6:08

the boot and there he

6:10

sets up whatever we are to make

6:12

of his philosophical school. And he dies in 480

6:15

BCE which is sort of a classic year

6:17

in Greek history because that's the era of

6:20

you know big battles. A lot happens in

6:22

480 BC. The Persians are being kicked out

6:24

of Greece. So Marathon and Salamis

6:26

which we've done episodes about. I doubt if

6:28

he lived that long. That gives him

6:30

90 years and given all these different

6:32

traditions that we'll go on to later,

6:34

the ancient had a great thing about

6:36

longevity. If somebody was quite a heroic

6:38

figure they often claimed he'd lived preternaturally

6:41

long. I very much doubt if he was

6:43

either born as early as 570 or lived

6:45

all the way to 480. Okay so

6:47

living for 90 years at that point in history

6:49

was not a thing that people were wanting to

6:51

do? Well actually some did weirdly. If you survive

6:54

to like 25. Yeah you might make it all

6:56

the way to Italy

6:58

but most people didn't make it to 24

7:00

and anywhere. They collected traditions about all the

7:02

very very old men right and Sophocles for

7:04

example the great Greek didian definitely lived to

7:07

nearly 90. He actually did. So people

7:09

who were writing about other ones wanted to make

7:11

them compete with that. And obviously the

7:13

Mediterranean diet is a huge... It's

7:15

the lovely fish on Samos. Pulses,

7:18

beans. So we've already killed them

7:20

off 480 BCA so the

7:24

episode is already done. I guess we

7:26

just go home now. Now actually really

7:28

we're gonna start again. This isn't really a

7:30

biography. This is a kind of cultural history of

7:32

an idea of a man that we have biographies

7:35

of him. I mean there's a... Iamblicus

7:37

is a name that I'm vaguely aware of

7:39

as a historian. So what

7:41

do we know? There are

7:43

two surviving serious substantial biographies

7:46

of him and thereby people who

7:48

were in much much much later

7:50

antiquity sort of Roman

7:52

Empire period Greek philosophers who

7:54

were really Platonists. They were really into

7:57

Plato because Plato took a lot of

7:59

his ideas from... Pythagoras.

8:01

So they wrote too, but we also

8:03

have much more scurrilous ones, a very

8:05

sensational one by a chap called Diogenes

8:08

Laertius, which is full of the skindle

8:10

things about sex and parties and that kind

8:12

of thing. Good stuff. I'm glad there's sex

8:14

in parties, you guys. It's

8:16

not just about math.

8:18

There was a chap called Heraclides Ponticus,

8:21

which is one of those stupid classicist ways of

8:23

saying somebody from the Pontus from the Black Sea,

8:25

who was brought up in such a cold place,

8:27

right, that he just found this whole idea of

8:29

the sunny climbs of South Italy and Samoth really intriguing.

8:31

So I think he was actually building

8:33

a sort of fantasy biography

8:36

about this, this southern charmer.

8:39

Wait, what are people basing their biographies

8:41

on if there's nobody who at the

8:43

time was writing about him or the

8:45

records were no longer, like, how do

8:47

you write a biography based on like,

8:50

oh, my grandpa once told me the story about...

8:52

Because people were generating stories very soon

8:54

after his death. So even during his

8:57

own lifetime, there's another poet called Xenophanes

8:59

who's really rude because he's obviously a

9:01

rival, right? But also the comic theatre

9:03

is everything and you will relate to

9:06

this. So there

9:08

were lots of comedies about mad

9:10

philosophers because people found them inherently funny. And

9:13

the famous one is by Aristophanes called

9:15

The Cloud. It's about Socrates, where

9:18

he's going around in a basket. We

9:20

haven't got any about biopsychos, but we

9:22

know they existed. Lots of

9:24

funny stories arose about them, especially because

9:26

of his theory of metempsychosis, which

9:29

is that when you die, your

9:31

soul leaves and is reborn into

9:33

another body, which reminds people a

9:35

lot of some ideas in Hinduism,

9:38

reincarnation. So that particular aspect

9:40

of whatever went on in his very

9:42

mysterious cult sect, whatever it is we're going

9:44

to talk about, attracted lots and

9:46

lots of very weird stories and people

9:49

like to make great jokes about it.

9:51

They've cracked jokes a lot in antiquity

9:53

about being reborn in a pig or

9:55

a duck, you know, all the obvious

9:57

kind of things. So people went

9:59

to the theatre. who knew nothing

10:01

about Pythagoras and whatever the convenience had

10:03

done to him to make him as

10:06

bonkers as they possibly could,

10:08

got into the public discourse

10:10

and then centuries later that's

10:12

the story that somehow starts

10:14

masquerading as serious biographical facts. Now

10:16

just imagine if the stuff that you say

10:18

in your comedy shows on anybody is the

10:20

only source, only source in 2000 years

10:23

time. Yeah,

10:25

I mean the up and the downsides when you do

10:27

comedy, your work disappears. It's ephemeral,

10:30

it goes into people's brains or out of their ears, they

10:32

laugh, they forget it whatever or it goes

10:34

into the cultural consciousness and suddenly it's no longer

10:36

a joke, suddenly people are actually doing the thing

10:38

that you were being satirical about and you're like oh

10:41

I've ruined everything. So I think you need,

10:43

I think you start to need taking your

10:45

my clown job. It's a

10:48

really epistemological responsibility. Wow. A

10:51

bit more seriously. Wow, hardcore stuff. Alright so

10:53

Pythagoras, let's start with the myths of his

10:55

birth. Do you want to guess who his

10:57

dad may have been Desiree? The

10:59

dean of his school. No, I'm sure

11:01

his dad was like a, I don't know, I

11:03

feel like it's always like he was a poor

11:05

farmer or a poor something and that's

11:08

why the kid goes so far

11:10

to like overcompensate and be like

11:12

I've created maths or something. So

11:14

I'm guessing his father was a

11:16

poor worker of some kind. Ah,

11:18

completely opposite. He was

11:20

a rich, he was like the mayor of

11:23

the town. The sun god. Wait,

11:25

what? Do it. Apollo,

11:28

god of the sun. Oh,

11:30

okay, yep, missed that one

11:32

by a country mile. Edith, this

11:34

feels maybe slightly untrue but what?

11:37

Well actually he was the son of a

11:39

salesman called Manis Arcos which is just fairly

11:41

common nation, okay. He might

11:43

have been a gem engraver or somebody who

11:45

both engraved and sold gems. Semitaculo

11:48

abujoise. Yeah. Semitaculo

11:52

abujoise is amazing. Yeah. But

11:55

yeah, tattoo that on your arm. He's

11:57

called Puthai Gauras which is a perfectly, you

11:59

know, it's not a good thing. particularly remarkable

12:01

name because people have names with

12:03

bits of gods in them. But the sun

12:06

Apollo, he gets identified with the sun quite

12:08

early on Helios, right? He

12:10

is a Piscean Apollo. He's the Apollo

12:12

of the Piscean Oracle, which is the

12:15

snake. It's like Python originally. Yeah. But

12:17

it's the Piscean Oracle. And people

12:20

who would knew nothing at all about him, they

12:22

have this thing called no men, oh men,

12:24

which means that people somehow life is connected

12:26

with their name. You know, they used to

12:28

do name interpretation of

12:30

history. So a story arose

12:32

that his mum and dad when they wanted a

12:34

baby had gone off to the Piscean Oracle and

12:38

asked about having a baby. And so then

12:40

a myth starts up. There's so many myths

12:42

about people both having a hierarchy. So both

12:44

Zeus is a dad, and he's

12:46

got a bloke as a dad. So he

12:49

could have two dads. He could have two dads. I

12:52

mean, it's like the baby Jesus. Yeah, no,

12:54

he's got Joseph the carpenter. And he's got

12:56

the three in one triune top god, right?

12:59

He's got two dads. So there's a two

13:01

dad thing. On top of that, though, the

13:03

Greeks associated sun worship

13:06

with barbarian countries, right?

13:08

Like the Egyptians, the Persians, no, everywhere

13:10

barbarian just means everybody, everybody else barbarian

13:13

just means going bar, bar, bar. Yeah, just

13:15

the gavel. They don't mean anything.

13:18

They could have equally been like the gavel

13:20

to go. Yeah. Wow.

13:22

The point the point is that that actually is

13:25

a reflection of the idea that he was a

13:27

bit exotic, a bit other that he got picked

13:29

up knowledge in Egypt or from the

13:31

Phoenicians in the Levant or from the Persian

13:33

Zoroastrians who did worship, you know, fire and

13:36

the light. Yeah, kind of thing. So it's

13:38

part of this exotic is not quite properly

13:40

green just from his name. Yeah,

13:42

there's no other proof that he's gone to these

13:45

because I feel like I'd heard that he'd had

13:47

some like Egyptian or like study or something like

13:49

that. But is that just from the name? No,

13:51

it's not just. Oh, okay. Okay. They might have

13:54

gone on the or fix, which is another set,

13:56

right? The or fix. They absolutely did

13:59

worship the. So he's

14:01

over on the west coast of Italy. You're

14:03

going to go out and look at Gloria's sunrises. So

14:06

we have this story that Pythagoras when he's born, there's

14:08

a sort of prophecy that your wife will give birth

14:10

to a child that will surpass all humans in all

14:12

time, in beauty and in wisdom. He's going to be

14:14

hot, he's going to be wise, he's going to be

14:16

smart, he's going to be gorgeous. He's

14:18

going to be perfect, right? Well, in fact,

14:20

one of the more respectable sources is a

14:22

chap called De Chiarchus, who was a student

14:24

of Aristotle. I mean, he was a serious

14:26

philosopher. And he said that he was remarkable

14:29

for his good looks, because we all

14:31

know that most geeky people, most philosophers,

14:33

you know, I have to say that most of

14:35

my colleagues in philosophy are not what I would call

14:37

a hottie. Yeah. De

14:42

Chiarchus said he was

14:45

very tall of noble stature. His voice, his character

14:47

and every other aspect were marked by an exceptional

14:49

degree of charm and embellishment. He always wore

14:52

white trousers underneath a white gown, apparently,

14:54

which is kind of oriental. He had

14:56

a golden thigh. They say he had

14:58

a golden thigh, it's a little bit

15:00

softer. Was

15:04

that just a trick for him to show

15:06

people? I mean, because if you want to

15:08

see my thigh, I've got to pull down

15:10

these trousers under my tunic and made you

15:12

look. It's very, very interesting. Golden thigh is

15:15

my favourite Bond theme. It's Tina

15:17

Turner. That's a golden thigh. I

15:19

found his weakness. And

15:22

he also went around with a golden crown. But,

15:24

you know, people have weird headgear and on

15:26

tickets, you know, Pericles always wore his hot plate, you

15:29

know, his heavy arm helmet. I

15:31

mean, I always wear this headband, but like

15:33

that wasn't, it's not the same. Like, when

15:35

did he cultivate this? Because you've told me

15:37

now that he had a cult and also

15:39

he was hot, which helps if you're going

15:42

to run a cult. I guess nobody knows

15:44

like at what point the sociopathy started to

15:46

grow up. This is what he's doing. Like he's

15:48

cultivating a whole like there's the sun

15:50

god story. I'm only in white. I've got

15:52

this crown. Look at my golden thigh. No,

15:55

but really look really closely. What

15:57

did the biographers say about how much

15:59

of this was like him completely believing

16:02

his own delusion versus like, you

16:04

know, working in angle. Well,

16:06

they're split on this. Okay. As they

16:09

are about a lot of things. So one lot

16:11

say that he was like a freedom fighting hero

16:13

who had to leave Samos because he spoke up

16:15

for freedom of speech. So he was driven off

16:17

to Italy. Others say that as soon

16:19

as he got to Italy, he set up trying

16:21

to be a tyrant himself. Yeah. Now,

16:23

if you want to be a tyrant yourself, you do want

16:25

to create mystique. You do want to have, you're going

16:27

to make yourself look very beautiful. But

16:30

you're also going to develop weird things that

16:32

people will talk about because all news is good news.

16:34

If you're trying to set up a tyranny. You got

16:36

to have a stick, right? Wow. And imagine. Yes.

16:40

This is nuts. Okay. And he

16:42

had no other apparently source of income, whatever

16:44

happened to the salesman. Yeah. We

16:46

don't know. I mean, he had

16:48

to get his disciples to pay, convert people

16:50

to join the sect. He's a deadbeat dad.

16:55

He's like, I gave you the

16:57

son. Yeah. What

16:59

do you want? He is a deadbeat

17:01

dad of so many children by mortal

17:03

maidens. Really? Well, I guess

17:05

if he's that hot, everybody's like, I

17:08

would love the son, the son's son's

17:10

son. Yeah. The son's son's son.

17:12

Yeah. But I'm just trying to find a way through

17:14

what we know about his life and what we know

17:16

after his life. We do think he

17:18

travels and we think he's

17:20

traveling to two major cultures, the

17:23

Persian world, the Egyptian world. Absolutely.

17:25

And that's where ancient commentators and biographers come out

17:27

with it. Even then, I

17:29

have to say this is a normal thing that they

17:32

do, that they're writing about any of their sages that

17:34

they have to go off to their trips to Egypt

17:36

and their trips to Persia. But

17:38

he will definitely, if you're born in

17:40

Samos, you absolutely will have gone to

17:42

the Persian mainland. And if

17:44

you're interested in maths or geometry, you

17:46

will definitely have gone to Egypt. Yeah.

17:49

Even some rumors, some people have said that

17:51

he was actually North African. Oh,

17:53

yeah. That's what I heard from Ms.

17:56

Zuri Neale Hurston show that she was saying that

17:58

Pythagoras was African. of African

18:00

descent. Well, it's possible. So,

18:03

Salis, who's the first real

18:05

philosopher, scientist, same kind of

18:07

time, he was half Phoenician.

18:09

Now, that means he's from the Levant,

18:12

which means he may have been very Lebanese.

18:14

There's lots of, you know, interchanges

18:16

between the Levant and Egypt and all the rest

18:18

of it. We never know

18:20

exactly what colour anybody was in the

18:22

ancient Eastern Mediterranean. That is the honest

18:24

truth. Depends on the time of year.

18:27

I think he's a brilliant example of

18:29

the way

18:34

that the ancient Greeks were the conduit for,

18:37

there wasn't a Greek miracle, there

18:39

was a Nice and Mediterranean and North

18:41

African miracle, but it came through mainly

18:43

through the text of the Greeks.

18:45

We're talking about a really synthetic, exciting,

18:49

hybrid intellectual milieu. And

18:52

that is only because the Greeks, they were

18:54

in contact with more than other people because

18:56

they colonized on seaboard. So

18:59

they tended to meet more people. They got

19:01

to be the ones who said these are

19:03

our ideas. Because we've collected

19:05

them and we put them down to give them to

19:07

you. So they're ours. You've got it. Oh,

19:09

beautiful. That can't be the beginning

19:12

of that idea. Okay,

19:16

understood. Yeah. So we have this idea

19:18

that Antiphon, the Greek writer, says that

19:20

Pythagoras learned to speak Egyptian from the

19:22

Pharaoh himself. The Pharaoh, the second year.

19:25

And then even maybe he's training with

19:28

Zoroaster himself, the Zoroaster, the kind of

19:30

great. This is a Greek comedy. Somebody's

19:34

a Greek comedy set at the court of

19:36

Amasis and Zoroaster turned up and saying,

19:38

I see the truth on the lie.

19:40

I mean, the Greeks found the Persian

19:42

religion incredibly funny. I mean,

19:44

I don't know anything about Zoroastrianism except

19:46

for Freddie Mercury and not eating,

19:49

I think, tubers or something like

19:51

that. Well, he was Zoroastrian, but

19:53

I used to absolutely smell a comedy

19:55

where we're at the court of Amasis so everybody

19:57

can wear weird Egyptian costumes. We know that they

20:00

they love to dress up as barbarians in theatre. Paul

20:02

Sargreuse is going to turn up and be this comic figure and

20:05

then Zoroaster's going to come along and they're going

20:07

to have it, it's a comedy. So were the

20:09

Greeks basically like Pythagoras, what a genius. And

20:12

then he would walk away and they're like, oh

20:15

yeah. Oh yeah, I mean all through

20:17

ancient Greek philosophy, you get complaints from

20:19

Plato, from Socrates, from Aristotle that people

20:21

just laugh at philosophers. With very good

20:24

reason. I mean, with very

20:26

good reason. If you're engaging with the fine

20:28

detail of everyday life and trying to earn

20:30

a living and somebody's going along and saying

20:32

things like, do we exist?

20:34

Yeah, you know, you want to say, give

20:36

me a break. Yeah, I don't, you know, I

20:39

exist enough to feel hungry. Yeah, okay,

20:41

so he's having a wonderful gap here in

20:43

political media, possibly. And people back home were

20:45

like, oh, did you go find yourself? Pythagoras,

20:48

you know. Yeah, exactly. And he comes back

20:50

wearing white being like, I am a golden

20:52

god. And people

20:54

are flinging their bodies out of a pair.

20:56

Look at my golden thigh. What

20:58

else do we know about this mystical grand tour

21:00

Edith? I mean, there's the idea of him establishing

21:02

a school, isn't there? Well, he does

21:05

establish something in Italy. I think that's something

21:07

we can be sure of. What all

21:09

the scholars argue about is whether it

21:11

is a religious mystery sect or

21:14

a very high and esoteric but

21:17

very intellectual, sort of rational philosophical

21:19

school. And in fact,

21:21

that route continues to this day. I

21:24

can promise you, I have seen Barb

21:26

Rawls at Philosophy Conferences. I

21:28

would love to see that. Does someone just throw their

21:31

IPA like in your face? I

21:33

challenge you. I think the distinction may

21:36

be slightly false one though, because all

21:38

ancient philosophers group together according to their

21:40

ideas. So even Aristotle is the most

21:42

rational of all of them. That

21:44

is Lyceum with its own little sort of

21:46

high table culture and little rituals. And this

21:49

school that he sets up, it's named after

21:51

a famous shape. Do you wanna guess what

21:53

it is? It's a triangle? It is not,

21:55

which is an absolute. What, what?

21:58

The dodecahedron, what do we do? What?

22:01

It's a semicircle. He's squashed, he's squashed

22:03

at his time. A semicircle? That's not

22:05

even a shape anybody cares about. Like in

22:07

the top five shapes that comes up on

22:09

no one's list. Think of a sexy

22:11

shape. Half a circle. Nope.

22:14

Beer gut. Nope, not the shape. What are you talking

22:17

about? He missed the brand synergy there. He did, didn't

22:19

he? Because the triangle was right there. Is it? They're

22:21

like semicircles. That may have been to do with... Okay,

22:24

so think of the ancient Greek theater.

22:26

Yeah, okay. Right? He's

22:28

talking to an audience of

22:31

his disciples. In the round.

22:33

Yes. You know what? Full

22:35

of triangles. Full of triangles in there. No, no. Nobody

22:38

wants to talk to people in a triangle. Nobody's interested in

22:40

the triangle. If you talk to people in a triangle,

22:42

then some are further away from you than the others.

22:44

You want to talk to them in a semicircle. Okay,

22:46

but if you had eyes on the back of your

22:48

head, you could also talk to them in a circle.

22:51

Well, didn't Pizagoras have eyes in the back of his

22:53

head? I heard he got that after the sign. Not

22:56

just a triangle nerd, not just a

22:58

mystic philosopher, not just a sort of

23:01

esoteric, golden-fied wonder beast with Pythagorabs, because

23:03

we said his heart. Pythagorabs.

23:06

Shredded. He's also a sports instructor. So

23:08

they say... They also talk PE.

23:10

Do you want to

23:12

guess who he may be training? Wait,

23:14

who? Is he training famous people?

23:16

Yeah. Is he training famous Olympians? He

23:18

is. I don't

23:20

know any famous Olympians, because Marathon was an

23:23

Olympian. He's just a guy who ran and

23:25

died. I don't know the names of famous

23:27

Olympians. He took... The important thing

23:29

is that he chose a very small man called

23:31

Eurymines. And he

23:33

chose him so that once he trained him, he

23:35

then beat all the bigger guys. He's

23:38

the Lionel Messi of ancient athletics. Doing

23:40

it for small men everywhere. Come on. Exactly.

23:43

The little goat who beats all these

23:45

enormous guys. And I'm sure he did

23:47

that deliberately. Which sports? Like,

23:49

which events? Well, all the standards

23:51

track and field. Okay, wow. I mean,

23:53

wrestling... I mean, the little guy being

23:56

fast. No, the little guy wouldn't have

23:58

wrestled. The one he helped... There was a famous strong... man

24:00

called Milo of Croton, he was a

24:02

local guy, he found this guy, who

24:04

we know from other authors did things

24:06

like carry a fully grown adult bull

24:09

around on his shoulders in training. I

24:11

mean he may have even trained Milo to do

24:13

that. He might have said, can you lift that

24:15

bull on your shoulders? But

24:18

that again, it's not as weird

24:20

as it looks because Socrates is

24:22

always going off to the polyester

24:24

to the gymnasium to talk to

24:26

handsome young philosophers who've just finished

24:28

working out. Yeah, they really

24:30

thought that you could only think properly if you cut

24:32

your body well. So he's an

24:34

aesthetic as well. So aesthetic we mean he's

24:36

stripping himself of all the kind of good

24:39

things in life. He's punishing himself almost. Well,

24:41

he's trying to control his physical design. Okay.

24:44

Is that coming from the workout thing? Because a

24:46

lot of people get super into a workout mode

24:48

and then they're like, oh man, you got to

24:50

do things, you got to do No Nut November.

24:52

And you got to, you know, like. No faps,

24:54

no faps. Yeah, exactly. You know, so like, I

24:57

can see that happening for people who are like,

24:59

I really want to get my delts like perfectly

25:01

and I now I realize that has to be

25:03

beating myself with sticks and no. That

25:06

is also though, just an exaggeration of a

25:08

continuing strand in ancient philosophy that

25:10

if you were going to devote yourself to thinking about

25:12

the good life and I mean the virtuous

25:14

life and all the rest of it, then

25:16

you do not want to be that drunk,

25:19

siberite, such another

25:21

city in South Italy, where they did

25:23

nothing but feast and have sex all

25:25

day and every day. Sounds awful. Yeah.

25:28

Terrible. Definitely want to do that for your

25:30

own moral well being. Some sources say that he told

25:32

the athletes to eat lots of meat and stop

25:34

eating figs because figs were a

25:36

luxury. They're very cheap. Well, cut out the cheese.

25:38

Yeah. But no, yeah, cut out the cheese,

25:40

cut out the figs, eat more meat. Yeah. That's

25:43

the nihilistic diet or something. Yeah. The

25:45

paleo. The paleo. But

25:47

more sources say that he was actually the

25:50

first really true vegetarian. He absolutely

25:52

bored the shedding of blood, either

25:54

in violence between humans or against

25:57

animals and that he wanted people

25:59

to... be vegetarians. That's clear

26:01

in at least two of the later

26:03

biographies and actually Ovid the great

26:05

Roman poet's poem Metamorphoses, he

26:08

actually has Pythagoras commanding

26:10

the human race not to grow fat

26:12

by stuffing itself with another body, that

26:14

the human body should not have animal

26:16

bodies in it. It's very powerful stuff.

26:18

Yeah. Why is there not a Pythagorean

26:20

diet out there? Because that

26:23

would sell. In the 19th century

26:25

vegetarians were called Pythagorean. Yeah.

26:27

Yeah. He was the world's most

26:30

famous vegetarian until unfortunately

26:32

Hitler probably actually. But

26:35

like if you were a veggie in the

26:37

19th century you were a Pythagorean. Oh

26:40

my goodness. He also had another amazing line,

26:42

was it guts inside of guts? Yeah.

26:45

His moral opposition to eating meat is

26:47

it is disgusting to have guts inside

26:49

of guts. Hip hop, it's like babies

26:52

have a baby's guts inside of guts.

26:54

We can't have it. It's no good. But

26:56

that would be not just odd and funny

26:59

to ancient Greeks, but actually frightening

27:01

and disturbing because of the entire

27:03

economy is based on this. An

27:05

entire traditional religion is based on

27:08

animal sacrifice. Yeah. So that would

27:10

have been seen as disturbing to

27:12

the social compact in it. So how

27:14

much of this demonizing or the like sort

27:16

of ha ha, he's a weirdo, but

27:19

also his ideas are so

27:21

counter to our economy and

27:23

our society that we have to kind of make him

27:25

crazy and foolish. You know, just as

27:27

like Jesus would have been a challenge to capitalism.

27:30

You know what I mean? Like what was he

27:32

too challenging for Greek? Yeah. I

27:34

think so. And especially traditional religion,

27:37

the traditional religion is what holds the city

27:39

state together. You worship these gods and you

27:41

come together with these feasts for these animal

27:44

sacrifices. So to repudiate that is

27:47

a very big deal. And he didn't

27:49

have any quam, like he did this easily. Like

27:51

he didn't struggle. We don't have any evidence of

27:53

him being like, Oh, I don't know.

27:55

And I'm trying to formulate this thing. He just like, this

27:57

is right. The theorem came to me in a dream or

28:00

from God and I cannot tell

28:02

you what went on inside of

28:04

that. Pauline knew he just said

28:06

he was a vegetarian and actually

28:08

went and fried two steaks and sea crows. He

28:10

was in a semicircle. We do actually have

28:12

a story later saying he does sacrifice 100

28:14

oxen. Yes we do. So literally we've

28:16

just said this is the guy who's like don't sacrifice 100 oxen

28:18

and then in a different story it's like

28:21

I'm going to sacrifice 100 bull. He

28:23

said don't eat meat and then he's like but how about

28:25

100 meat? That's

28:28

fine. So there's definitely a

28:30

tension in terms of how he's being spoken about

28:32

by those who are clearly for

28:35

or against or maybe just fascinated or confused

28:37

by him. The idea of him is a

28:39

radical. There's a dangerous radical that's quite exciting

28:41

because that's what Socrates was. I would say

28:44

subversive. Subversive, okay. I would say subversive. You

28:46

can be radical in plot using sort of leftish.

28:51

You can be a really right wing

28:53

subversive. Okay, alright. And the thing that

28:55

ultimately we do not know but the

28:57

idea is that he travels to Kratona

28:59

in southern Italy either to escape from

29:01

a tyrant or to become a tyrant.

29:04

I love how those two things are oppositional and

29:06

yet somehow it sort of makes sense. Well they

29:08

could easily, they could really easily be true. It

29:11

was the age of tyrants. You know that's

29:13

the city's outside mainland Greece where almost all

29:15

tyrannies in fact called the ones in mainland

29:17

Greece. The age of tyrants is exactly what

29:19

it is. They had replaced hereditary

29:21

kings and so you've got a

29:24

new thing where the smartest richest guy in the city

29:26

could just sort of tell everybody to bring

29:28

him in on a wave of popular support

29:31

and then he could get really nasty afterwards. So

29:33

it's perfectly possible that he stood up to somebody

29:35

trying to do that in his island but

29:38

had absolutely every intention of doing exactly that himself

29:41

when he got to Italy. Perfectly possible.

29:43

So when he went to Italy he was

29:46

also escaping a tyrant

29:48

to become a tyrant but he was fleeing. He wasn't

29:50

just like, oh let me go and check

29:53

it out over here. I think that's likely.

29:55

Okay, okay, cool. And you know escaping a

29:57

tyrant means escaping certain and unpleasant deaths. Yeah,

30:00

yeah, yeah, okay. Because you can't just keep you

30:02

around and be like, boo, for shame. It's like

30:04

no public hanging. So Edith, the story is that

30:06

he's fled a tyrant, shown up

30:08

in Cretona in Italy, and immediately he's like,

30:10

oh, actually, I quite fancy being a tyrant

30:12

over here. So we've got Porphyry, who's one

30:14

of his biographers, tells us things

30:16

go a bit wrong. Pythagoras gets into political

30:18

trouble. Pythagoras, one of his students, is called

30:20

Cylon. Cylon realises that he's actually aiming at

30:22

political power, as well as just being the

30:24

top brain in the room. He wants to

30:26

be the top man in the room. And

30:29

he resists him. And then there's

30:32

a lot of fighting. And

30:34

Pythagoras, who's actually, I think, probably quite a

30:36

coward, goes and hides in a temple of

30:38

the Muses, because the Muses are in charge

30:40

not just of music. And he was very

30:42

interested in music, but actually of maths and

30:44

astronomy and all that kind of thing.

30:46

And he either dies there because he doesn't eat for 40

30:49

days, or

30:52

Cylon sets fire to the temple

30:54

and burns him out, or he

30:56

dies by suicide later on. It's

30:58

all very, very unclear what exactly

31:00

happened. Either of those two stories seems

31:02

to be a bit difficult if you're 90. Yes,

31:05

you're right. We have to revise down the

31:07

age properly. The age, because you can't get

31:09

chased anywhere. I'll

31:11

be asleep by then. So

31:14

Cylon, his student, sees through

31:16

the sort of persona and

31:18

is challenging him, or is

31:20

being like, essentially runs him

31:22

into the temple of

31:24

the Muses, where I guess he can't commit

31:27

any violence in the temple of the Muses. But

31:29

also, we can say Pythagoras was a coward, but

31:31

he's also a vegetarian who doesn't like violence. So

31:33

he's not going to get into a scrap match

31:35

with Cylon. Well, that's another story that he didn't

31:37

actually want into the temple of the Muses, but

31:39

he wanted to feel the beans. Yeah,

31:42

we'll get to that. We'll get to that. This

31:44

is a crucial bean fact we'll come to. I

31:47

want to come back to Cylon, though, because there is

31:49

an element of the story where Cylon wants

31:52

to be tutored by Pythagoras. Pythagoras rejects

31:54

him. Oh, this is going in the

31:56

film. Basically,

31:59

because he's... That's his sort of

32:01

animation to be like, oh I see through you

32:03

and you could have been my muse but instead Yeah,

32:05

that's the plot of the Incredibles. Yeah syndrome is

32:07

rejected as a boy by mr. Incredible and

32:09

then becomes a villain Yeah, this is every

32:12

villain like ever Just

32:14

like if you would only not rejected this poor

32:16

person who you know had their feelings hurt Yeah,

32:19

but you can't have any ancient Greek story

32:21

without at least one revenge motif I

32:23

mean, you know that it has to go in

32:26

okay, it has to go in someone's got to

32:28

feel vengeful Yeah, it's a great story. So Welcome

32:33

to your daily affirmations repeat

32:35

after me working with others

32:37

is easier than ever Nice

32:40

drive for perfect collaboration our

32:42

teamwork keeps getting better Yeah

32:45

affirmations are great, but Monday calm can

32:47

really get you the teamwork you desire

32:50

work together easily and share files

32:52

Updates data and just about anything

32:54

you want all in one platform I'm firm

32:56

to start or tap the banner

32:58

to go to Monday calm Tired

33:03

of ads barging into your favorite news podcast

33:06

Good news ad free listening on

33:09

Amazon music is included with your prime membership

33:11

Just head to Amazon comm slash ad

33:13

free news podcast to catch up on

33:16

the latest episodes without the ads I

33:24

Thigress is killed by Kylon and

33:26

his men either burned alive dies

33:28

by suicide Starves to death

33:30

and a temple or bean related

33:32

death Pythagoras is the

33:34

original mr. Bean Because

33:37

not silent enough not enough.

33:39

Yes, you've only been chased by a

33:41

bee forever Do

33:45

you want to guess how the beans end up

33:47

killing him or being? Responsible

33:50

for Pythagoras death in this story.

33:52

Okay, cuz we mentioned the beans before does he Like

33:55

beans because he's a vegetarian or

33:58

not like beans because thinking

34:00

because of reasons

34:03

that would befit Pythagoras you

34:05

know well you remember Edith

34:07

mentioned metempsychosis earlier wait

34:09

was that to do with

34:12

the reincarnation that metempsychosis okay

34:14

metempsychosis literally just means movement of the

34:16

soul transition of the soul from one thing to

34:18

another. So did he think that beans had a soul? He

34:20

may have done. But why

34:22

only beans? Like why don't cabbages have

34:24

a soul? That's a very good question.

34:26

Are they all saying pomegranates?

34:34

I don't think he thought that beans

34:36

had souls but some scholars do think

34:38

that he extended the metempsychosis idea to

34:40

the vegetable world to flora

34:42

as well as fauna. So then he starved

34:44

because it's like there's literally nothing I can

34:46

eat because it's all alive. The story goes

34:48

that he's been chased by Kylon's men and

34:50

he gets to a bean field and he

34:52

stops running because he doesn't want to trample

34:54

the beans because he believes they're the souls

34:56

of his dead friends. He doesn't want to

34:58

eat the beans. He doesn't want to eat

35:00

the beans. He doesn't want to trample the

35:02

beans. He doesn't want to trample them. He

35:04

doesn't want to trample them. Couldn't

35:06

he run around them? Where

35:08

was the field? Surely it had a boundary

35:10

around the field. Couldn't he have been like I'll just

35:12

make a sharp left and run that way. What's

35:15

really interesting to me though is that he seems

35:17

to have claimed to know what his

35:20

friends became reincarnated as. Now it's one thing to

35:22

believe in reincarnation. It's another to actually know that

35:24

that bean is your mate Fred you used to

35:26

go to the pub with. But his daddy's son

35:29

got. There's another friend

35:31

got reincarnated as a puppy and he

35:34

saw this puppy being beaten by

35:36

its owner and he went in and

35:38

stopped it not because he was against

35:40

puppy abuse. Yeah, which is why most people would

35:42

be like you're beating a healthy puppy. It was his

35:44

friend being beaten in the form of the puppy. So

35:46

next to that friend there was a dog just being

35:49

punched in the throat and he was like I don't

35:51

care. But this one is my friend. This is my

35:53

friend. Okay, I wanted

35:56

to get the dog theme in there for reasons that

35:58

will become clear later. Oh my God. there's

36:00

more. So was he the only

36:02

one at that time to be talking

36:04

about reincarnation and everyone was

36:06

like hilarious and then he started

36:09

it sounds like a cult around

36:11

reincarnation or math or all

36:14

of it. The idea of reincarnation in

36:16

another body is definitely not

36:18

really attested before him in

36:20

the Greek world. No, no, no. He

36:22

kind of cornered that USP. I mean

36:25

we've already covered so so much but

36:27

Edith can we talk about Pythagoras the

36:29

philosopher in terms of proper

36:31

philosophy and I guess the problem for us is he

36:33

doesn't really write anything down in his

36:35

lifetime so we're reliant on the people who

36:38

come after. The comedians. Everyone write

36:42

your life story now. Do not leave it

36:44

to us. We will throw it up. Yeah

36:46

absolutely just because it's hilarious. Yeah so what

36:48

do we know of his philosophical position other

36:50

than a metempsychosis I guess which is his

36:52

big thing. Yeah well but the

36:54

metempsychosis rests on something bigger which is

36:56

the dualism of soul and body. This

36:58

is a very specific idea that the

37:00

body is material and absolutely corrupt and

37:02

not very interesting and that's why you have

37:05

to sit on your desires because they're animal.

37:07

What makes humans different is that we've got

37:09

this soul. The body is

37:11

a prison. This is why the Platonists,

37:14

the Neoplatonists is Christians like so much.

37:16

This whole idea that there is a

37:18

soul separate from the body and that actually

37:20

everything physical is not particularly nice. But the

37:23

Greeks before that had did there was

37:25

no separation of soul and body or

37:27

there was. Well there was but it was

37:29

considered absolutely tragic. So that the souls in

37:32

Hades of the dead are miserable. Achilles

37:34

says it would be better to be

37:36

a slave alive. Right. These

37:38

guys said no no no no no

37:40

the material world is terrible. There's this

37:43

wonderful world of ideal forms and spirits

37:45

and souls and that is the perfect

37:47

world. So it's actually a complete inversion

37:49

that we inherit like the Christian idea

37:51

of heaven. The other big thing

37:54

is that he was deep into music and math and

37:56

actually I think some of his ideas there were

37:58

incredibly important that we don't. don't fully

38:00

understand them. It wasn't just geometry.

38:02

He worked out his business about

38:04

perfect force and perfect business and

38:06

optics and realised that there's

38:08

something musical about mathematical harmony.

38:10

And we know this from

38:12

other ancient mathematicians and everything.

38:14

He did make some big

38:17

propositions that were really important. It's just,

38:19

we don't go out to a

38:21

wall. So he was a super,

38:23

super wicked, hot, totally shredded, like

38:25

a cult leader, golden crown, golden

38:28

thigh, playing a guitar because he's

38:30

into music and math and philosophy.

38:32

Like, I'm super

38:34

into this guy. Well,

38:36

Apollo is the god of, importantly, the

38:38

kisser, which is the same word

38:40

as guitar. Eventually, it's a harp, it's a

38:42

stringed instrument. And on a stringed

38:45

instrument, you can see how the mathematical

38:47

things work out much more easily than

38:49

you can playing a pipe or something.

38:51

So although he isn't

38:53

usually presented as actually a harp player, I

38:55

think there is that kind of connection. Yeah,

38:58

I mean, as a heavy metal fan, Pythagoras for

39:00

me, the Iron Man double

39:02

guitar harmony solos, Pythagoras, that's

39:04

him, is absolutely best. So

39:07

I have to say, we're on page nine of the script

39:09

and we are just about touching on triangles and maths. We

39:12

only just get, this is what, if they

39:14

only taught me this for the first week

39:16

of geometry, I would listen for the rest

39:19

of the year, being like, this stuff is

39:21

so metal, what? Desiree,

39:23

do you remember what Pythagoras' theorem is for

39:25

triangles? A squared plus B squared equals

39:28

C squared as a right triangle. Some

39:30

of the squares of the two sides is equal to the

39:32

square of the hypotenuse. Yeah, very good. Yeah,

39:34

a GCC maths textbook there for you. So

39:37

obvious question, do you know who invented

39:39

Pythagoras' theorem? Oh, well, I'm guessing

39:41

based on the question, probably not. I mean, I

39:44

don't know, I'm guessing some Egyptians or Persians,

39:46

where he went to go study it.

39:48

And then he, like other Greeks, went,

39:50

I invented this because you don't know

39:52

those people. So I invented it. Yeah,

39:54

you're right. The Babylonians, as far as

39:56

we can tell, the Babylonians. They

39:58

were the ones who were there before the... Persians. They're the

40:01

really, really old ones. This

40:03

was worked out pretty early on when

40:05

humans started building. It's

40:07

something you need to do if you're going

40:09

to be a good stone man. I mean,

40:12

I guess Egypt figured out the pyramids and

40:14

other things based on that. They're pretty triangular.

40:16

Yes, exactly. And I'm sure they weren't the

40:19

first to maybe be building in that

40:21

way. So I guess this is old news.

40:23

So, okay. So, yeah, so we've definitely got

40:25

evidence of Pythagorean ideas in pre-Pythagorean by several

40:27

centuries back with the, at least the Babylonians.

40:30

So obvious question then, Edith, is he

40:32

an absolute plagiarist and chancellor? Or

40:36

should we take Pythagoras seriously as

40:38

someone who perfected ideas, who received

40:41

knowledge and then built upon it? I'd go

40:43

further. I would say that he actually could,

40:45

we could call him the father of geometry

40:48

and not because he was the first to do it,

40:50

but because he's the first to make

40:52

it a separate study of area of

40:55

science. Is he before Euclid discipline? Is

40:57

he pre-Euclid? Way, way, way,

40:59

way, hundreds of years. So Euclidean geometry is like the

41:01

thing you have to study in university if you want to be

41:03

a physicist. So it's in the matter of not

41:06

just doing it in practice while you're building

41:08

buildings. You know, this is what

41:10

the Babylonians had to invent it so they

41:12

could, you know, put down paper stones. But

41:14

turning it into what the Greeks called a

41:16

technae. We have that word in technical college,

41:19

like a technae is music or its geometry

41:21

or its philosophy or its poetry or its

41:23

visual arts. So I think he turns

41:25

it into a distinct area of study and

41:27

promulgates different theories, including this doesn't really matter

41:30

where he got it from if he's sort

41:32

of founding the discipline. He's clearly far too,

41:34

he thinks he's far too smart to actually

41:36

go and build a building. He's not going

41:38

to do it in his hands, is he?

41:41

I've proven the theory. My work here is done. Well,

41:43

I mean, he might actually shed some blood if

41:45

he did that and that is completely interesting.

41:48

So let others do that. He crushes you

41:50

on the side. He hammers the chisel and

41:52

it goes

41:54

down on his knuckles and it goes down

41:56

immediately. And then he's like, oh no, my

41:58

soul, my life. I'm dying

42:01

the man who invented triangle theory didn't

42:03

really invent triangle theory He actually

42:05

was very important in the musical theory. So he

42:07

probably should have played the triangle, but he doesn't

42:10

He may well have done there was such an instrument.

42:12

Was it? Oh, oh good. All right Actually,

42:15

I sure joke that I mean I

42:18

could take you to the British Museum right now and

42:20

show you a vase looted from Greece. Sorry

42:24

Yeah, okay with a lady

42:26

playing an ancient Greek costume or an ancient Greek

42:28

pot playing a triangle They're

42:30

missing I mean and I assume they play

42:32

that because it makes a better sound than

42:35

a semicircle Oh The

42:40

story goes that his musical theory comes

42:42

about from an interaction with

42:44

a blacksmith is that right? Yeah, all ancient

42:46

philosophers go and hear a blacksmith. I just

42:48

have to say it's one of those things

42:50

bit like revenge Yeah,

42:52

he heard and he heard this clanging the sounds

42:55

coming out of the Forge and

42:57

he split those somehow into all

42:59

He heard lots of different reverberations,

43:01

which meant that he realized that the chords

43:04

split in certain ways It's not explained exactly

43:06

how this goes on Newton

43:10

got hit by an apple. He discovers gravity

43:12

These are Gora's walks by a blacksmith and

43:14

he discovered the mathematics behind music from hearing

43:16

a ting ting ting But I loved it

43:18

as a heavy metal fan famously Sheffield

43:22

and Birmingham because of the industrial forges of

43:24

the sort of you know, Ozzy Osbourne is like

43:26

listening to metal being smashed into metal I

43:29

love the idea that the origins of music theory

43:31

starts with an anvil with a hammer on an

43:33

anvil and Pythagoras going Hang on a second. I

43:35

think an octave I think of Motome Okay

43:42

Okay, so he is both metal

43:45

and the father of soul what I Mean

43:49

wearing a white suit and a gold crown. Yes. Yes

43:51

Oh, that's my great. That's true. I Wow,

44:00

so he's done quite a bit for the

44:02

cultural and scientific or mathematic philosophical consciousness. Okay.

44:04

Wow. I think we're back on board with

44:06

Pythagoras. There was a spell where we were

44:08

thinking, this guy sounds like an absolute fraud,

44:10

but actually I think we're back on board.

44:12

We're back on. I have to ask Desiree,

44:14

what would you want to be reincarnated as?

44:16

I mean, even if people are going to

44:18

pee on me and that's a bad way

44:20

to start and teenagers are going to carve

44:22

their names into me, I would like to

44:24

be reincarnated as a tree and it would

44:26

be cool to be in a place to

44:28

provide shade and to be a place where

44:30

people gather and to witness a

44:32

lot of things happen over, because they live for

44:34

a long time. Like I remember going to see

44:37

Sequoia as an American. I'm like, all of

44:39

these trees are older than our whole concept

44:41

of being a nation. Yeah. And they've seen

44:43

it all come and go. And that's kind

44:45

of amazing. Beautiful. Yeah. But yeah,

44:47

I shouldn't have started with even if people pee on me, but you

44:49

know, that is a consequence of being a tree. It's people are going

44:51

to do stuff. I thought you were going to say a bus shelter.

44:55

That's where most of the peeing happens in my community.

44:57

Stand up there. So

45:00

Edith, we've got Pythagoras,

45:03

the cult leader. Do we know what's

45:05

happening in the cult? Like you said

45:07

mystical, you said religious, you said philosophical.

45:09

Are there rules? Are there

45:11

initiation ceremonies? Do you have to give them

45:14

all your money and renounce all of your

45:16

family and friends and drink any

45:18

flavor? And sleep with Pythagoras whenever you

45:20

need. Obviously. Yes. Well,

45:22

it's interesting that he did say goods

45:24

should be held in common. Now it's

45:26

more attractive to say goods should be

45:28

held in common. Goods should be held

45:30

in my house, in my common. Yeah,

45:33

exactly. If you haven't got any, you have

45:35

more to gain than if you have a lot. Yes.

45:39

There were certainly catechisms, chanting.

45:41

People would overhear them in

45:44

the semi-circle. Chancing. If you discovered the mathematical

45:46

genius inside of music, of course it's going

45:48

to have to be chanting. Yeah. And acoustics

45:50

too probably. He probably knows about acoustics. He

45:53

probably taught math by question and

45:55

answer. Two is two is four,

45:57

three and three is three. Wait,

46:00

six. There are other... Six, six, six. Yeah,

46:02

I'd have to get the right corner. Since

46:06

my baby left me. No, sorry, yeah. Yeah,

46:08

see? They weren't allowed to

46:10

cut their finger in toenails during sacred

46:12

times, both of them, in case... In

46:15

case they true. You're

46:18

right, isn't it, right? You're okay. Just

46:20

these weird corpse-looking no fingers in

46:22

toenails. You can't have toenails that

46:24

long. It hurts. I've been stabbed by my boyfriend's

46:26

toenails before, and I was ready to throw them

46:29

out of the way. Is he a pie sucker? No,

46:31

he just doesn't look at his toenail until

46:34

I go, ouch, it's a bit much. They

46:36

weren't allowed to kill insects, which is a

46:38

real problem in the southern, you know,

46:41

south of Italy. In Austria, exactly. They

46:44

weren't allowed to kill anything, which is a bit

46:46

like the tinglites. The tinglites

46:48

were a Swiss radical Protestant.

46:51

Yeah, in the same sense. They weren't allowed to kill anything. Unless

46:54

they killed a hundred of them as a sacrifice for

46:56

coming up with something really genius. They

46:58

all had to put their hands on the ground.

47:01

Again, we're at 90, you know. So are

47:03

they trying to earth themselves from the lightning,

47:05

or what? Presumably. There's some jokes about that

47:07

in Aristophanes, actually. You know, and an

47:10

interest in insects, apparently, like they

47:12

would have a fleet-jumping contest.

47:16

In a small-time travelling circus, maybe

47:18

with the fleet-jumping. So yeah, they

47:20

had a lot of things, which is why

47:22

an awful lot of scholars think that this is

47:24

more of a religious thing than a college. I

47:26

think it could be both. But also, nobody knows

47:29

how much of this was made up by comedians

47:31

after he was gone, and how much of this

47:33

actually happened as well. Right. He

47:35

also claimed to be able to talk to animals so he could

47:38

want to talk to bear down from attacking

47:40

a city. But that could be

47:43

interruptions from autism. Orpheus

47:47

could talk to the animals, like a

47:49

doctor to do little, and so on.

47:53

Also, they were all his friends, so of course he could talk to

47:55

them, because it was like, that's my

47:57

mate Joe. Yeah. I went not

47:59

cold. There were not told what language so

48:02

if he's talking. To his mate who is

48:04

now a dog. does he go with woof woof

48:06

Yes yes. And I guess if I mean I

48:08

think we have to just the just summer as

48:10

some of the story told about him, he could

48:12

quell storms. That. A storm coming minority but

48:14

the for the hands on the ground he

48:16

could com a storm down. he would talk

48:18

to bears convinced not with tech a town

48:20

hundred pairs. And. Then I guess they're her say

48:22

an ancient Greece rather live in a that how to

48:24

Well that. Sounds like Dr. Doolittle and

48:26

several. X Men. Altogether like he's.

48:29

A yeah Superpowers. I just like the

48:31

graphic novel version of him. you know,

48:33

like the store me holding a say

48:35

i'm like moses but these are selects.

48:37

Hey little. Bear Cubs upset that one

48:39

day you'll be really cool and close

48:41

up phone photos that people take a

48:43

peek assess for the. People claim

48:45

that he could be seen in two places

48:47

at once. yes myself. very good ones that

48:50

you know what when you think for how

48:52

many stunt doubles to ten how yeah. I'm

48:54

gonna say if you're a good leader. That

48:56

you go, I probably need to have others. Of me

48:58

out there that you've gotta start out at all they have to

49:00

do with want a to die and put long what seats. On

49:03

I was gonna die Strauss's get

49:05

ahead of are really high Greek

49:07

guy you're a white wouldn't wilde

49:09

rides Pythagora's born in some. Probably

49:12

have lived, maybe not. He is

49:14

probably knobs run a school. Who

49:17

the semi circle maybe? maybe have

49:19

superpowers? Probably not. Maybe was a

49:21

tyrant may be flooded tyrants. Probably.

49:24

To do music and maps and

49:26

philosophy and with important believed Msm

49:29

psychosis the transmission of souls into

49:31

other bodies. And. Then

49:33

died in the hilarious been injury and

49:35

death or possibly that league. My favorite

49:37

story has a theater I'm an incredible

49:39

life although not all of it probably

49:41

true but week we have he the

49:43

legacy. Or

49:57

something that we need to know from the stage. the semi

49:59

circle. Though my stopwatches ready.

50:01

Professor Eat, if you have two

50:03

minutes, take it away, please. Many

50:05

people in history both ancient history

50:07

and more recently, have claimed to

50:10

be a reincarnation of Pythagoras himself.

50:12

They thought all kinds of motors

50:14

so that sometimes running counts, sometimes

50:16

wanting to tell messiness, all sorts

50:18

of different motivations. In the

50:20

Eighteenth century, My very. Favorites claimed reincarnations

50:23

at place. So if you go

50:25

to a pub in North Hampton

50:27

Inn about seventeen. Eight seats

50:29

you could see the learned

50:32

English dog who was a

50:34

reincarnation of Pythagoras. do lots.

50:36

Of tricks to show her intelligence. She was.

50:38

A border collie We've got a wonderful

50:41

pizza which was that she off the

50:43

outset that they stuck outside the pub

50:45

some she traveled all around that the

50:47

midlands south sets of some pack of

50:49

cards with numbers and letters on C

50:51

could with her snouts bell Pythagoras went

50:53

off to she was she would put

50:56

the cards down and say. Pythagoras.

50:58

She could do math right Attorney

51:01

she could do this. The hype

51:03

was a new the would have

51:05

us but she could do simple

51:07

arithmetic a false two plus two

51:09

she would push for towards youth.

51:11

She could also detail questions on

51:13

I love This all leads metamorphosis

51:15

the very text that brings us

51:17

that long story. But Pythagoras being

51:19

vegetarian studies. Some cleverness underlying

51:21

a very, very simple public statements,

51:24

but this was also quite subversive

51:26

in it's own way. This is

51:28

the British working cloth law thing,

51:31

of the fact that Classics. Greek.

51:34

Philosophy is the early education.

51:36

So it's a it's a beautiful combination

51:39

but I would very much liked as

51:41

Met the Learned English Dub especially as

51:43

it hits. As she would shots. he

51:45

started a career because there was a single

51:47

the learned French dog and overloaded front stop

51:49

could do with speak French. See

51:52

completely Trump's and by. Being reincarnation.

51:55

right? So let's all get to Northampton

51:57

next Saturday night and also answer. Reading

52:00

today, the Loaded existed.

52:03

Or I help her soul has

52:05

not departed that fab, even our

52:07

body. Yeah, have some. ah that's

52:10

beautiful. Thank you Edith. Wealth is

52:12

such an interesting thing that he

52:14

so famous. Yeah. I'm going to

52:17

I Street London right now and sites Who

52:19

was Pythagoras? Everybody. Will get

52:21

way more. I know who that is that

52:23

if I said who was. Sophocles,

52:26

Directly, Eric Lethal, some of the most important

52:28

Berlioz, The Us President right now. The way.

52:32

I mean like the every you know

52:34

you as people industry any kind of

52:36

question like ah ah what is your

52:38

name ah I've ever the was these

52:41

videos these read like that is thrilled

52:43

and. To Arbor isn't matter to say. crisis

52:45

really frightening. Only one of my great pledges

52:47

As I get older this a lot of

52:49

the people who really I didn't like. Very

52:52

much a not dying. And

52:54

right it's like they're not there. I yeah no

52:56

I'm a the idea that artsy day or that

52:58

you're going to get yeah and you're going to

53:01

be like that. It's easier with civil all. The

53:03

comfort that comes out of the death

53:05

of enemies. As another make him. Yet when

53:07

I remember that Nasa Esa what you know

53:09

now. It's.

53:15

Time. Now for the some what do you

53:18

know Now this is our quick their quest

53:20

for this way to see how much she

53:22

has learned in this absolutely madcap episode with

53:24

a we have we have pinball the rounds

53:27

of absorb so much from this but i'm

53:29

not sure what if any of it as

53:31

of facts and so let's do this test

53:33

and will see was X as reality A

53:36

were also includes champion Dinner I I do

53:38

you always that. I

53:40

think they will. I think people will forgive you if

53:42

there is as it is there. Okay good this is

53:44

a good and I must have. A misstep I

53:46

have. yeah we've definitely be. Stephanie bounced

53:49

around okay him get ten questions that

53:51

it's the I you do. Question one:

53:53

What Greek island with Pythagoras? likely born

53:55

on some of the was the old

53:57

school me can out a sigh. And

53:59

eight for. Now I really want to go there.

54:01

I'm immediately... Okay, that's good to achieve that. Question

54:04

two. What was one of

54:06

the mythical stories told about

54:08

Pythagoras' birth and parentage? Oh,

54:11

just that he was the son of Apollo. He

54:14

was named after the son and... Or

54:17

what was the other dad? Oh,

54:19

I mean, or the son of a guy

54:21

who like did sold gems or something like

54:23

that. Question three. What

54:25

was the name of the shape-themed school that

54:28

Pythagoras allegedly founded? I mean, the semi-circle,

54:30

which is like the worst reality

54:33

show on Netflix. What? The

54:35

semi-circle. Okay. Question four. How

54:38

did Pythagoras apparently help the athlete Eurymines

54:41

of Samos defeat his bigger, stronger

54:43

opponents? Okay, so he...

54:45

to retrain them, he told them

54:47

to go to the gym, he was like, don't eat cheese,

54:50

definitely eat meat. Yes. Paleo,

54:52

we said paleo. So he basically... He basically

54:55

invented the paleo diet, but it was the

54:57

Pythagorean diet for gymnasts to work on their

54:59

tiny little muscles. That's right. No fake no

55:01

cheese, all meat. Oh, the figs. Yeah, but

55:03

that's like no sweets, no carbs. Question

55:06

five. What two opposite reasons

55:09

did Pythagoras' biographers give for him leaving

55:11

Samos and moving to Croton? Basically,

55:13

he was fleeing a tyrant to become

55:15

a tyrant. Question six.

55:18

In one of the stories about his death, why

55:20

wouldn't Pythagoras run through a field of beams to

55:22

escape his attackers? Because he didn't want to run

55:24

through to trample the souls of his friends who

55:26

had been reincarnated as beams. Also, either

55:28

he was 90 and couldn't run or he

55:30

died in a fire because that's what fire

55:32

does or he just didn't eat inside of

55:34

the muses. Amazing. Very good. I'm

55:37

going to give you two points for that because that was a double answer. Okay. Question

55:40

seven. Which ancient civilization was already using

55:42

Pythagoras' theorem centuries before he was born? The

55:44

Babylonians, but also the Egyptians and everybody

55:46

else too, like everyone was using them.

55:48

Definitely the Babylonians, probably the Egyptians. Yes.

55:52

Question eight. What is metempsychosis? The soul is

55:54

separate from the body and when the body

55:56

dies, the soul gets reincarnated as another person,

55:58

but Maybe not.. Not because at

56:00

one point it was a pup is question

56:03

ninety two very well described one of the

56:05

as so secretive ritual beliefs of the place

56:07

I gory in a secret society. okay. Will

56:10

they they they chanted everything that like back

56:12

and forth so like learning to respond they

56:14

he had to grow the toenails and their

56:16

nails that you can only cut them at.

56:18

Certain times of year this oh and

56:20

no sex and also like all of

56:22

your stuff should be communal stuff. My

56:25

hat my assessed on I found the

56:27

perfect answer. Okay this for eleven out

56:29

of then nice. Somehow you've achieved which

56:31

ferocious animal did Pythagoras apparently convinced? The

56:33

stop attacking a town bear exit? Not

56:35

pursued by a bear. You stay right

56:37

there, bear and know storms either. Stopped

56:39

at all. Very good Yes is Paddington

56:41

Bear. Schools like I was just

56:44

gonna come to that allowed to have like a

56:46

meal and. Says I think the lamanites. I'm

56:48

pretty much sadness. I came away from Peru

56:50

within. The Three

56:52

Birds a D Done it again. Eleven

56:55

out of ten. Thank you so much

56:57

would a riveting story. I'm. Not joking.

56:59

Like isolates people should. Know this

57:01

before they learn math because it's a lot

57:03

more rock and roll than it's given credit

57:06

for yet. And absolutely. But little heavy metal.

57:08

The that is that? The Anvil? That guy.

57:10

That's what I'm taking from this process a

57:12

little and Motown. you wouldn't have it set

57:14

without pets Hagrid who was from everywhere because

57:16

I'm a listener. If you want some more

57:19

of desecrate why not check out one of

57:21

all many episodes with her including the Colombian

57:23

Exchange. these two time keeping the pool road

57:25

from one that was really good and loved

57:27

ones aren't strong enough. Greek History trial episode

57:30

on Athenian Democracy and. Remember if you've enjoyed

57:32

Pocus please leave it's reviews and seventy friends

57:34

subscribes your that me on Bbc sounds so

57:36

you never miss an episode or to buy

57:38

to the his. Thank you to our guests

57:40

in History corner we have be fantastic Professor

57:42

Edith Whole from University of Durham Thank you!

57:44

Eat is. By. Key so much higher.

57:46

Let Death. What? That means it's

57:48

of Ancient Greek Greece And really, you guys.

57:51

Ah, I was nice enough.

57:53

Pretty cool s adding Tony Corner we have

57:55

to delightful Deseret birds. Thank you Deseret. Oh

57:57

thank you Greg! I love being on the show so

57:59

my. If I absolute favorite, it's an

58:01

honor to be here. So thank you and

58:03

for all the listeners who tolerate me not.

58:06

Knowing about stuff and finding out in front

58:08

of you know to be love, it will

58:10

have it's and he love the listener. Join

58:13

me next time as we separate myth

58:15

from truth for another historical subjects. But for

58:17

now I must go Boom people that

58:19

eating baked beans is basically cannibalism. You're eating

58:21

cell phones. I was standing by. This

58:27

episode of your that Me with research by

58:29

Josh Rice is written that any those tested

58:31

hello emulators and me the audio producer with

58:33

Steve Hanky our production coordinator for tape and

58:35

have it was produced by any Rose Price

58:37

good fellow meat and of senior producer M

58:39

in the Goose and are set of editor

58:41

with Chris Legends. On.

58:53

Tommy and I'm having a journalist and

58:55

a synthesis ready to tackle the biggest

58:58

issues on the planet. With had a

59:00

toxic relationship with nature the too long it's

59:02

time to reset and weekend love for the

59:04

plunge. Into a John Rare

59:07

Earth a podcast from Bbc Radio Four,

59:09

We investigate a major story about our

59:11

environment wildlife. We delve into the history,

59:13

how enough to be get here and

59:15

we search for effective solutions to rising

59:18

temperatures and collapsing wildlife. But this one

59:20

day a week he dies at the Laden predictions.

59:22

Were here to celebrate the wonder of the natural

59:24

wealth and meet the brave and lot of people

59:26

with fresh ideas to bring it back from the.

59:29

Brink listen to rarest of.

59:40

Being. a winner on valentine's is easy

59:42

it's flowers don't forget the first quarter

59:44

early at one hundred flowers.com and you'll

59:46

be entered for a chance to win

59:49

ten thousand dollars cash and okay that's

59:51

guaranteed to wow and a chance at

59:53

winning ten thousand dollars cash just go

59:55

to one hundred flowers.com/a cast that's why

59:57

hundred flowers.com o cast know pretty and

1:00:00

with 1159ET on 2424. Open

1:00:02

to legal residence at the 50 US and DC. 18 years of age or

1:00:04

older. Sponsor is 1 Inch Without

1:00:24

the Ads.