0:00

This is the BBC. or

0:13

a lot. Shopify helps

0:15

you do your thing however you chiching.

0:17

Shopify is the global commerce platform that

0:19

helps you sell at every stage of

0:22

your business. From the launch your online

0:24

shop stage to the first real-life store

0:26

stage, all the way to the did

0:28

we just hit a million orders stage,

0:31

Shopify is there to help you grow.

0:33

Shopify helps you turn browsers into buyers

0:35

with the Internet's best converting checkout. 36%

0:37

better on average 36% better on average

0:40

compared to other leading commerce platforms.

0:42

Because businesses that grow, grow with

0:44

Shopify. Get a $1 compared to other leading commerce platforms. per

0:46

month trial period at shopify.com.

0:50

shopify.com. Hi,

0:52

I'm Una Chaplin and I'm the host

0:54

of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles.

0:58

It tells the story of how

1:00

my grandfather, Charlie Chaplin, and many

1:02

others were caught up in a

1:04

campaign to root out communism in

1:06

Hollywood. It's a story

1:08

of glamour and scandal and political

1:11

intrigue and a battle for the

1:13

soul of the nation. Hollywood

1:15

Exiles from CBC Podcasts and the

1:17

BBC World Service. Find

1:20

it wherever you get your podcasts. Hello

1:27

and welcome to You're Dead To Me, the

1:29

Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously.

1:31

My name is Greg Jenner. I am a

1:33

public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we

1:35

are loading up our llamas and doing the

1:37

Machu Picchu Trail to learn all about the

1:39

Inca Empire. And to help us, we have

1:41

two very special guests. In archaeology corner is

1:43

Professor at the Institute of Archaeology at University

1:46

College London, where much of his research focuses

1:48

on the archaeology of the indigenous peoples of

1:50

the Andes before, during and after the Inca

1:52

Empire. It's Professor Bill Siller. Welcome, Bill. Well,

1:54

thank you very much for inviting me. Looking

1:56

forward to it. And in comedy corner, she's a renowned

1:58

broadcaster. actor and

2:00

comedian. You'll know her from literally everything good,

2:02

including a host of the iconic Just A

2:05

Minute, the great British Bake Off, various marvellous

2:07

travel documentaries. You'll almost certainly remember her from

2:09

our episodes on Ottoman Istanbul and Agatha Christie.

2:11

It's Sue Perkins. Welcome back, Sue. It's a

2:14

pleasure to be here. What

2:16

a lovely dream scene we've got. Right. Okay,

2:18

Sue, we know you're a history fan. Yes.

2:20

You're renowned for your knowledge and for being

2:22

a very well-traveled person. So South

2:24

America for you is not far away and

2:27

daunting you've been. Yes, I've done some extraordinary

2:29

things in South America. I've been shot twice

2:31

in Columbia. One's at Point

2:33

Blank Range in the stomach and the other one through a, I'd

2:36

admit, fortified bulletproof windshield.

2:38

I was mugged in Rio,

2:40

so I feel I certainly

2:43

have one side for what South America

2:45

can offer. Well, yeah, hopefully today will be

2:47

slightly less dangerous. And what about the

2:51

the Inca, the intellectual inklings towards the

2:53

Inca? Do you know much about them?

2:55

Not really, no. I'm Incolite when it

2:57

comes to my database and my knowledge,

2:59

but that's why I'm really glad to

3:02

be part of the show because it's a

3:04

voyage into the unknown. Before

3:13

I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely

3:15

listener, might know about today's subject, I'm

3:18

guessing you're picturing Machu Picchu, the phenomenal

3:20

ancient citadel in the Peruvian Andes, which

3:22

is now a major tourist destination. In

3:24

terms of Inca culture, you might have

3:26

seen the hugely underrated Disney movie, The

3:29

Emperor's New Groove, one of my faves.

3:31

You may also have seen the heartbreakingly bad, Indiana

3:34

Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, with,

3:36

of course, our famous Whittewilding archaeologist is himself based

3:38

on Charlton Heston's character in the 1954 film

3:41

Secrets of the Incas. So the

3:43

Incas are clearly in our cultural

3:45

imaginations, but what do we

3:47

actually know about this powerful civilization, this

3:50

powerful empire that only really flourished for

3:52

about a hundred years or so? Right,

3:54

start with the basics, Sue Perkins, when

3:56

and where. When

4:01

and where did the Inca Empire emerge? Give

4:03

us a country, give us a time. Well

4:05

it's going to emerge in one of the South American

4:07

countries. I'm going to imagine it's Peru or Chile.

4:10

Century-wise, I'm going to go for...

4:13

Kent. OK. Bill,

4:16

I think Sue did better on the geography than the

4:18

chronology on that one. Yes, Peru's good,

4:20

but it's a bit later than that. So 1400,

4:22

1500, 1532, the Spanish arrive and knock them off.

4:29

Yes. So, Inca merge

4:31

around 1400 in the area of

4:33

central southern Peru. Cusco is their

4:36

central city. It's very high,

4:38

isn't it, Cusco, to build a... It is lovely

4:40

and high. ...building empire. Well, but they don't mind

4:42

that. They make good use of that, that height.

4:44

Lots of their stuffs, 3500, 4000 metres, that doesn't worry them at

4:46

all. So

4:49

they initiate a process of making

4:51

alliances and conquering and they eventually

4:54

incorporate an area from your Columbia

4:56

right down to Santiago in Chile

4:58

and going a little bit into

5:00

the Amazon basin, but mainly along

5:02

that coast and the Andean mountain

5:04

range. This shocks me in

5:06

many ways, possibly because of the many cinematic

5:08

iterations that you talk of. We

5:11

see them as an ancient... Ancient. Yeah, ancient

5:13

is the word. But they are expanding at

5:15

the same time that we're having the Renaissance.

5:17

1532 is when the Spanish show up, that's Henry VIII.

5:20

So when we think of the Inca, we need to

5:22

really think it's the sort of Wars of the Roses

5:24

period. I think my mind is blown because... Yeah, because

5:26

they are more recent and yet they at the time,

5:29

of course, they're bigger than the British Empire. What

5:31

are the challenges of knowing about the Inca? Well,

5:34

I guess the main challenge is that they

5:36

didn't write about themselves in a way that

5:38

we can get at. All of what we've

5:40

got in terms of written sources were produced

5:42

by the Spanish or by

5:44

people that were indigenous that become

5:46

Hispanicized. So for that reason, we

5:48

have to work with these accounts

5:50

that we have from the Spanish and

5:53

then we have archaeological knowledge, which is

5:55

great. It gives us a lot of

5:57

information, but it doesn't give us the

5:59

personalities. Do we call them the Inca

6:01

or the Incas? The Sapa Inca is the ruler.

6:03

He's the head Inca. He's

6:05

the king, really, yeah. The Inca called

6:07

their own empire to wantinsui, the four

6:09

parts brought together. So they didn't

6:12

call it the Incas. We call it the

6:14

Incas. Gotcha. Right. Well, we're going to start

6:16

really with the kind of origin myth of

6:18

who the Incas said they were. But

6:20

first I wanted to ask Sue, if you had to

6:22

conjure up your own origin myth for the Perkins family.

6:25

Mythical beginnings for where the Perkinses began.

6:27

What would you go with? The Perkins,

6:30

it's a long standing dynasty and they've

6:32

always been readily involved in the

6:34

eating of carbohydrates. But it has no, the main

6:36

thing about the Perkins is it doesn't affect their

6:38

form in any way. They can gorge

6:40

on three or four sometimes different carbohydrates in any

6:42

one meal. And they will still emerge,

6:45

even at the point of death to be lean with

6:47

a heavy muscle mass, ready for

6:49

action, physically accomplished, deeply

6:51

dexterous, fighting people, fighting

6:54

sturdy outdoor people that

6:56

can take to any sports resistant to all

6:58

stones. That's a

7:00

lovely way into how the Inca thought

7:03

of themselves beginning, Bill, because they talk

7:05

about stones. Within the Andes, people tie

7:07

themselves to the place, the landscape. So

7:09

they come out of the landscape in

7:11

their origin. Particularly stone

7:13

can be animate in the Andes in

7:15

different ways. So one of the ideas

7:18

is that they came out of a

7:20

series of caves not too far away

7:22

from Cusco, Pambo Tocco, out

7:24

of the windows, and they emerge

7:26

out of this fully formed as four

7:28

brothers and four sisters. But

7:30

they immediately get into difficulties. So the food connection is really

7:33

good. One

7:35

of them is Brother Sot. And

7:37

he's a real problem. I got a catchy because

7:39

he's too strong. The other brothers decided to crack

7:41

him and put him back in the cave and

7:43

wall him up in the cave. The

7:47

second brother, Ayaruchu, so he's the

7:49

brother, Chile. So

7:51

Brother Chile, Ayaruchu, he is also

7:53

a bit of a fighter, but

7:55

he basically goes up onto a mountain, one

7:57

a kauri, And he also

7:59

gets turned to the ground. the stone

8:01

the third brother and mayonnaise it's you

8:04

would have thought so that fine I'll

8:06

east just a set of savagely difficult

8:08

brother the I'll cut when they get

8:11

of places to scars from brother who

8:13

becomes Michael come back as putting a

8:15

staff grown to start with gold and

8:18

at the point where that can sink

8:20

into the ground he decides that the

8:22

right place to form a city because

8:24

it's Zaki at that point. The third

8:27

brother iraq as he sends him to

8:29

smile over. To a central point

8:31

and he becomes another states So Iraq and

8:33

the comes as a stone actually inquiry cancer

8:36

which becomes did the central temple of the

8:38

of the interests. So the fourth brother this

8:40

Michael cut back a buddhist stuff and the

8:42

ground has no doubt rid of his other

8:45

brothers. He's got three the sisters all those

8:47

particular my more clear his his preferred system

8:49

becomes his wife. That's where the phone for

8:52

scarcer the rates and of origin miss for

8:54

the interests and we have a chili peppers

8:56

their how we have the stones selection make

8:58

this sounds but club. We'll censor salt

9:01

and pepper as I have so

9:03

far as I as exposure to

9:05

that elevated rail. Get the shit

9:07

rail? Yeah fuck I'm in So

9:09

from some ice siblings attended Vampire

9:11

of Millions Bell not. Genetically the

9:13

strongest style. Not am I make that

9:15

point? This isn't can't miss. This is mister

9:17

is obviously they would have been many many

9:19

people in the area but a how fast

9:22

does that entire empire expand that and does

9:24

it does every war or the city. So

9:26

through sonos in a gentle negotiation hey come

9:28

join the guy. Little fun of s a

9:30

personal as you think this is amiss in

9:32

practice of course the undies been occupied for

9:35

ten thousand years to the Inca are just

9:37

one group emerging uncivil on a long history

9:39

of occupations now we know automatically becomes and

9:41

partly trace this point. I was a pottery

9:43

and. Buildings and things like that

9:46

that basically this group begins consolidate

9:48

their area and in the esther

9:50

history. it's also very clear that

9:52

the beginning to effectively create a

9:54

line sees with of the groups,

9:56

sometimes conquering them, sometimes creating alliances,

9:58

sometimes marrying and. Them Six Not

10:00

always your brother and sister that get

10:03

together during. This

10:05

period of two or three hundred years when

10:07

they are getting their act together but then

10:09

they begin to prove very rapidly and Kisco

10:12

itself it ten seeds as city of one

10:14

hundred thousand people with about surprised by the

10:16

end. It's a D standard size and people

10:18

but by the end the Inca empire has

10:21

as we've said it stretched from borders of

10:23

Ecuador down in Santiago insulates and it's ten

10:25

to twelve million people that are within. That

10:27

and part is there any way of comparing.

10:30

For example, England's about two million people

10:32

And that time? Okay, so that. When.

10:36

Is enough land to be sas? What are the

10:38

Incas believe? and what are they? What cultures that

10:40

they suppressing. As they spread across South

10:43

America, the Into did have a

10:45

cult of the sun that they'd

10:47

piece as a state religion, but

10:49

at the same time they very

10:52

much recognize local location some what

10:54

they're called Watkins which are powerful

10:56

locations that art animate places seem

10:58

to carry on celebrating those and

11:01

sometimes will capture them and develop

11:03

them themselves in a sense they

11:05

didn't just conquered the creates alliances

11:07

and the assimilate and they're interested

11:10

in getting work. From the people

11:12

that they bring, in some ways they

11:14

don't just wanted to kill everybody, They

11:16

won't get the access to the resources

11:19

so they don't impose a singular religions.

11:21

Although there are ways in which they

11:23

promote this comes to the some. How

11:26

do you mentioned the empire is run

11:28

So did they develop a sort says

11:30

was a local governments system where you've

11:33

got success. Small. Eight since I mean

11:35

Mustangs pigeons of success That man development

11:37

center an idiot and and I can

11:39

think of what this as a South

11:41

American equipment with the Us as a

11:43

condo did it. Frames on the left

11:45

that last set a semi became rational

11:47

inside and out as going to be

11:49

may be regionalized hop sit with messages.

11:51

Running between them all I'm saying the messages

11:53

from the supper I'm in a lot. The

11:55

condor on sent by think a second answer

11:58

is pretty much bang on bail. Very

12:00

very good for the of tusky that

12:02

are runners running at four thousand meters

12:04

but they are running quite large distances

12:06

thirty so kilometers and then started on

12:08

to somebody else said even pass messages

12:10

on with said that the into doing

12:12

some writing that what they've got our

12:14

little strings with of the strings on

12:16

and off them and you could not

12:18

send these strings return to get at

12:20

certain information of this we get a

12:22

decimal system but we can't get it

12:24

all these nuance of the you have

12:26

of the narrative consent so that was

12:28

one aspect of it. The constructed

12:30

a very large road system is also

12:33

a common language that is promoter presented

12:35

exist long before them. Spectacular gets promoted

12:37

by them as a as a common

12:39

language of communication system. Both Skype call

12:42

the keeper a K H Ip you

12:44

there a symbiotic system of information that

12:46

is literally strings. So what do we

12:48

know of I know that the class

12:51

system for example and we've got king

12:53

with a separate into what about everyone

12:55

else? I guess we go automatically. Most

12:58

people are living in sort of small.

13:00

Communities distributed amongst the very different environments

13:02

that in Cook takeover save up in

13:04

the Highlands many of them are living

13:06

in small round how easy sometimes little

13:09

groups of houses with the patio area

13:11

sometimes is a. Very

13:14

not said he wanted to

13:16

assess assess their their organized

13:18

as ethnic groups effectively that

13:20

are brought into the into

13:22

empire and within those you

13:24

have. Kinship groups are used

13:26

that will work together and

13:28

they will own or access.

13:30

Bits of land and they will

13:32

share their labor, share some of

13:34

that products partly with said chief

13:36

of that community or whatever it

13:39

may be. The cascade of this

13:41

is that the Inca Empire requires

13:43

the people that they have assimilated

13:45

conquered to contribute labor towards them.

13:47

Is this a patriarchal societies? Are

13:49

men, the ones in controlled to

13:52

women have to self determination and

13:54

his friends and enemies as well.

13:56

Let's see what else and they

13:58

kind of cells and. Lamination if

14:00

you like. I think there's probably more

14:02

male and female, but it certainly is

14:05

described as being more balance. There are

14:07

Mceleney last better than see. There's some

14:09

communities. Me undies were matrilineal and many

14:11

people would would maintain boasts of their

14:14

concerts. And certainly women got into positions

14:16

of significant power. The wife or mother

14:18

of the Inca. How the a lot

14:20

of power? Some the religious leaders were

14:23

women. So yes, there were certain roles

14:25

that women had, but as ever there

14:27

was probably more male control. Most

14:30

it is small. what's his as yeah

14:32

so so we have to hit you

14:34

are these iconic host of not one

14:37

but two fantastic a cookery shows. The

14:39

Quakers make of ansip sizes so course

14:41

nice to ask you what you think

14:43

that intel were eating. Well. Imagining

14:45

three sisters I'm Muslim, squash.

14:47

And I'm imagining beans and amazing maze.

14:50

And is that that man Delicious said

14:52

that his stuff destiny for the as

14:54

takes is that the same for the

14:56

Anchor? Yeah know in many ways, although

14:58

it's piles tude they can produce and

15:00

slightly there were the companies to eat.

15:02

lots of potatoes with said Mais up

15:04

to three thousand eight hundred to say

15:06

medicine. With in Cusco you can still

15:08

produce mais slightly lower down.sabine's You've also

15:10

got Coca, the origin of cocaine, but

15:12

it's been used as a herbal chewing

15:14

thing rather than a drunk making thing

15:16

if you like. Usually was organize so

15:19

that one ethnic group hudson have access to

15:21

several different ecological zone since although use a

15:23

farmer might be farming in one area where

15:25

there was just potatoes because you were just

15:27

a bit too high you be able to

15:29

access some of these. I knew that we

15:31

were coming down from the silly in the

15:33

nice exotic sort of blue or found a

15:36

things by swapping them with in your ethnic

15:38

group and. In terms of things that

15:40

livestock at a rearing animals. have not

15:42

been through my wife has and see i

15:44

think nipple the guinea pig is was it

15:47

serious settled us at a lot of good

15:49

at neverland to livestock some there's no forces

15:51

right new horses no traction animals that's really

15:53

important so you can't have the plo a

15:56

neither can you does knew we would transport

15:58

because if you're going to transport anything people

16:00

have to carry it or llamas that can

16:03

take 25, 30, 40 kilos. But

16:06

wow, so you've got llamas and alpacas.

16:08

They're really important, partly for transport, partly

16:10

for making textiles because they're going to

16:12

produce a lot of the wool that's

16:14

used for making textiles. Most

16:17

people would be eating vegetarian food a

16:19

lot of the time. Meat would be

16:21

for special occasions, but guinea pigs are

16:23

widely produced. In fact, dogs were also

16:25

sometimes eaten, here are dogs, a bit

16:27

like a pig, but they don't have

16:30

pigs. It's not a bit like a pig. Well,

16:32

it depends how much you'd love your pig. I

16:35

don't eat any animals. There we go.

16:37

It's all just sort of rolling the

16:40

horror for me. When you say guinea

16:42

pigs were in abundance, I'm now imagining

16:44

just these sort of terraced, rocky terraced,

16:47

altitude-less farmlands, just

16:50

guineas running amok and I know for a

16:53

fact they can run amok and they are

16:55

ferocious and violent breeding pigs. They're

16:57

really nip, they nip, don't they guinea pigs? They

16:59

make an amazing noise as well. They're very loud.

17:04

It's more like the Star Trek trouble with the

17:06

tribbles or whatever it was because they're inside. Guinea

17:08

barn. It was actually quite often in your kitchen.

17:11

So they'll be running around in your kitchen,

17:13

you're feeding them the scraps of your pathetas

17:15

and peelings and things like that. They'll be

17:17

eating them and then when you've need that's

17:19

them available. All right. And you could also

17:22

store some of this, not so much the

17:24

guinea pig, but the lama and alpaca meat,

17:26

you can store it by freeze drying it.

17:28

Which they also do for potatoes. They

17:30

do. So the meat one is called charki,

17:33

which is actually probably where we get our

17:35

word jerky from. Oh, I didn't know that.

17:37

To freeze dry the meat. The potatoes, you're

17:39

doing that by trampling them and letting them

17:42

freeze, drying out a bit in the sunshine,

17:44

letting them freeze again, trampling them a couple

17:46

of three, four days and then you've got

17:48

little frozen potatoes that are called trunyu. And

17:51

the other thing I suppose we should mention is

17:53

drink. They're not wine drinkers, they've got grapes in

17:56

there. They don't have grapes, they come with the

17:58

Europeans. Ignore that. Right. So

18:00

the beer was mainly made out of

18:02

maize. One of the

18:05

ways of starting your beer is to chew it.

18:07

So if you masticate your beer, you can sort

18:09

of introduce the yeasts and then leave it for

18:11

a few days. You then leave it

18:13

for a few days. You add that as a sort

18:15

of starter mix to your beer and then let it

18:17

ferment. I'm with you. So the mash part of

18:19

the process. Yeah. And it's really

18:21

important because it is the way that you

18:24

cement relationships by sharing beer. You

18:26

also make libations, so you make the gifts

18:28

to the gods. The nuns, the atleier, were

18:30

one of the groups that were responsible for

18:32

brewing the best of this beer that was

18:34

used for some of the ceremonies and things.

18:36

Let's talk about textile because it's a really

18:38

big deal in Inca society. Weaving

18:41

really matters, doesn't it? Yeah. I

18:44

mean, first of all, you're up 4,000 metres

18:46

or whatever. You need cloth. And therefore, the

18:48

production of cloth was a vital thing for

18:50

all society. Textiles for

18:52

blankets, footwear, carrying things. It was

18:55

also used for defence and armaments

18:57

and slings and things like that.

19:00

It was sacred and it was used as a

19:02

burnt offering. So when the Spanish

19:04

arrived, the Spanish were all interested in the

19:06

gold. Actually what the Incas

19:08

are interested in is the quality of fine

19:10

cloth that some of the Spanish have got,

19:13

silk and things like that. 400

19:15

years later, we have very little textile surviving.

19:17

But weaving was part of the imperial tax

19:19

system. If only

19:21

HMRC would go that way. I'll

19:23

tell you what, I'm pretty good at all that. I

19:25

can turn in some crafting. Very

19:27

happy turning in a sort of coat or whatever they

19:30

need, really, a tabard. Yeah. I

19:32

can do really ornate stuff, Greg, because they just won't have it.

19:35

So they don't have money, so there's no currency. No.

19:38

No cash. Cashless society. Cashless society.

19:41

And they have all this gold and silver that the

19:43

Spanish are like, wow. Hooray. Just lying around. Just lying

19:45

around. What do you think they were using the gold

19:47

and silver for? Well, I mean, I wouldn't

19:49

say temples, but I guess, you know, when you're empire

19:52

building, you do want a bit of jazz hands and

19:54

a bit of razzamatazz, do you not? And

19:56

so I'll go for temples,

19:58

big structures. Inca building

20:01

centralized government kind of vibes in

20:03

Cushco. Good guess Bill? Absolutely good guess. The

20:06

Inca do not have iron, they've got copper

20:08

alloys for a lot of different things, but

20:10

gold and silver are largely

20:12

ornamental and sometimes actually they're mixed with copper

20:14

for the Coloration of it. They like it

20:17

a little bit mixed with copper because they

20:19

prefer the color of that. Eugh, gold, that's

20:21

got some copper in it. And

20:24

gold gets referred to as the sweat

20:26

of the Sun and silver as the

20:28

tears of the moon. Thank

20:30

you very much. I was trying to remember. The

20:35

Sun God is called Inky, is that

20:37

right? Inti. Inti, Inti. So he's the

20:39

main God. It's difficult, but there's also

20:41

Viracocha who's a sort of animating creator

20:43

God who the Spanish sort of think

20:46

is even better. So they sort of

20:48

promote the idea that Viracocha might have

20:50

actually been the Christian deity in certain

20:52

circumstances. The Pleiades are

20:55

very important as well. The stars.

20:57

The stars, but also lots of

20:59

these local locations. So this gorgeous

21:01

gold and silver and copper mixed, these treasures,

21:03

these all, you know, as you say, they

21:05

were in temples. We don't really have them

21:07

because the Spanish melt them down.

21:10

Melt them down, yes. You knew where I was

21:12

going with that one, didn't you? So the artworks

21:14

we don't have, many of the textiles

21:16

have rotted away. We've got some. We don't

21:18

fully understand the kipu knots. Is

21:20

there anything in society and culture that we have?

21:22

Have you made up the ink? Pretty

21:26

good makeup. I'd be quite pleased with that.

21:28

Yeah, I think my fiction score would be

21:30

very high. No, we have

21:32

in many ways, we have lots of

21:34

evidence. So we have buildings, structures, match

21:36

pea-tuned things like that, but also much

21:38

more local sort of houses and domestic

21:41

things. Lots of pottery survives,

21:44

which is really important as a

21:46

marker of both local production, but

21:48

also some styles that are very

21:50

definitely key to the Inca. Also,

21:53

sort of really important in terms

21:55

of sort of monumental structures. they're

21:57

building very beautiful stonework. That is

21:59

this., My smoking same way that soon

22:01

use fruit pretty some of most and prestigious

22:04

buildings as a city planning us and we

22:06

fell in our heads match you pitchers for

22:08

the one that comes to mind. Good guy

22:10

With the major capital this a city has

22:12

plans that resemble a Puma. Go the get

22:15

the the Inca capital is conceived as a

22:17

Puma. under puma was this of icon of

22:19

the incurred royal family. Ah alright so let's

22:21

talk about much you pc because it's the

22:24

one people will know. The same work is

22:26

astonishing but was his or his opponents as

22:28

a defensive? is it a fortress. So

22:30

it's a magnificent location with the sort

22:32

of river going going round it's and

22:35

that area with a vast area of

22:37

agricultural production. So the state itself was

22:39

producing an awful lot of of stuff,

22:41

but Machu Picchu is the city's elite.

22:44

Suppose that it was a religious area

22:46

so there are lots of structures that

22:48

have very significant religious purposes viewing to

22:50

the stars and things and he mentions

22:53

and religious sites. religious rituals little bit

22:55

there, but we should also took about

22:57

the rituals involving the dead t know

23:00

about mummification. In into Society see if

23:02

he ever. A set amount of the

23:04

case of and not specifically City Reserve Inc

23:06

has society and the what the significance as

23:08

rapping. A loved one in multiple

23:10

bandages whole cloth. would they in

23:12

ink a society that month stations

23:15

different and in the technique but

23:17

also that said continue to be

23:19

functioning society that consulted they are

23:22

absolutely central to incur scientists and

23:24

will do you have died Your

23:26

body continues to be a living

23:28

entity in the world and in

23:31

fact the into mummy was held

23:33

as still owning things so exactly

23:35

how they were mummified. We don't

23:37

have any. Elites mummies

23:40

surviving les Autres.

23:42

Love the phrase elite mommy. that's

23:44

wrong find ways he isn't that

23:46

your css the mummy carries on

23:48

in society is a useful thing

23:50

if you like an unknown or

23:52

and famously bedroom sorry was going

23:55

with one of the local an

23:57

indigenous a military captains to help

23:59

him get a man with a

24:01

local indigenous elite woman and

24:03

goes in to ask for permission for this and

24:05

finds out that he's asking permission from the mummy.

24:08

The mummy has an interpreter, luckily, that is

24:10

able to explain what is required, but it's

24:12

the mummy that he is asking permission from.

24:15

So, we do be happy to sit on

24:17

political councils, visit other corpses, give permission for

24:19

marriages, and even guest on this podcast after

24:21

nature has taken its course. We're called You're

24:24

Dead to Me. So can we keep booking

24:26

you? Absolutely. And the great

24:28

news is my agent will keep hoovering

24:30

her symptoms, because she will...cannot,

24:32

whether I am living or

24:34

dead, absolutely fine with her.

24:37

But I think we've got to really the end of

24:39

the Incan Empire. So how does the

24:41

Empire collapse? Collapse is maybe

24:43

not the right word. Conquered? Well,

24:45

it is conquered and it happens

24:47

fairly quickly. So 1531, the Spanish

24:50

arrive. Very rapidly, the saro gets

24:52

up and captures Atawalpa, who is

24:54

by that stage the Sabinka. Persuades

24:57

him to give lots of treasures

24:59

for his ransom, but then kills

25:01

him anyway. Classic. Yep. As

25:04

ever, there are some disgruntled indigenous

25:06

communities that are actually helping. The

25:08

Spanish numbers were so small, they

25:11

could not have conquered the Andes

25:13

without the help of other Andean

25:15

people. That rapidly causes the

25:17

collapse of the political system. Very rapidly, the

25:20

Spanish take control. One

25:22

of the key factors within this is

25:24

probably disease, because the European diseases are

25:26

wiping out large numbers of indigenous people.

25:29

And the last Inca ruler

25:32

is Tupa Amaru, who is in 1572. So that's actually 40 years

25:34

after. So

25:37

first of all, they get a sort of puppet Inca.

25:40

He then sort of rebels against the Spanish and

25:42

goes and... Selling

25:46

a little? Or a lot?

25:49

Shopify helps you do your thing. However,

25:51

you chiching, Shopify is the global commerce

25:53

platform that helps you sell at every

25:55

stage of your business from the launch

25:57

your online shop stage. To

26:00

the first real-life store stage, all the way

26:02

to the, did we just hit a million

26:04

orders stage? Shopify is there

26:06

to help you grow. Shopify helps

26:08

you turn browsers into buyers with

26:10

the internet's best converting checkout. 36%

26:14

better on average compared to

26:16

other leading commerce platforms because

26:18

businesses that grow grow with

26:20

Shopify. Get a $1 per

26:22

month trial period at shopify.com/work.

26:25

shopify.com/work. When you're ready to

26:27

pop the question, the last

26:30

thing you want to do is second-guess the ring.

26:32

At bluenile.com, you can design a one-of-a-kind

26:34

ring with the ease and convenience of

26:37

shopping online. Choose your diamond and setting.

26:39

When you find the one, you'll get

26:41

it delivered right to your door. Go

26:43

to bluenile.com and use promo code LISTEN

26:45

to get $50 off your purchase of

26:48

$500 or more. That's

26:51

code LISTEN at bluenile.com for

26:53

$50 off your purchase. bluenile.com

26:56

code LISTEN. And

27:00

sets up an enclave in

27:02

Vilcabamba down below Machu Picchu

27:04

in the jungle that basically

27:06

keeps the Inca lineage

27:09

alive and it's eventually when the

27:11

Spanish manage to conquer Vilcabamba that

27:13

they bring Tabacamaro up and kill

27:15

him in Cusco. Right, so 1572

27:17

is the absolute end point. But

27:19

1530 is really when the Spanish

27:21

show up and everything

27:23

ends. The new ones window! I

27:30

swear Sue and I sit quietly and

27:33

chew, well I'll chew Alpate Jelaki, you're

27:35

having a vegetarian option. A

27:37

lot of cocoa leaves. Absolutely. Well Professor

27:39

Bill tells us something that we need to know

27:41

about the Inca. So you have two minutes, Bill,

27:43

my stopwatch is ready. Please, the new

27:45

ones window, take it away. Well I

27:47

think the first thing to say is of

27:50

course the Inca are coming the sort of

27:52

after a lot of development in the Andes.

27:54

Ten thousand years or so of people up

27:56

there. There have been other major societies, Nazca,

27:58

Moche, Chimu, Tiwanaco, the Wari Empire, which

28:01

lasted longer and cover covered quite a lot

28:03

of a similar area of the Inca only

28:06

collapsed about 1000 and the common

28:08

era. So the Inca emerged

28:10

after that. And that's quite important in

28:12

terms of the fact that the Inca

28:14

actually are picking up on quite a

28:16

lot of things that pre-exist them. We

28:19

think of the Inca's greatest legacy in

28:21

many ways as things like their architecture

28:23

of Cusco and Machu Picci or Yanto

28:25

Tamba Pachacamak. Actually it

28:28

was this organization of labor. The

28:30

fact that they could get people

28:33

to work together and construct terrace

28:35

systems and canal systems and road

28:37

systems that covered this vast area.

28:39

And much of that is still

28:41

being used. So the agricultural productivity

28:43

of the Inca is something that

28:45

is still there now. And they

28:47

invested heavily in developing some of

28:49

these areas, areas like Cochabamba, which

28:51

were low occupation areas that are

28:54

now a booming sort of area

28:56

of agricultural production. Within that,

28:58

I think we've got to do things like potatoes.

29:00

You know, the crops that are being produced

29:02

in the Andes are vital to our own

29:04

society. We would not exist the way we

29:06

do if we did not have the potato.

29:08

It is a major contributor to world nutrition.

29:10

So that idea of landscape management and use

29:13

of the land, I think is one of

29:15

the main things that we should be thinking

29:17

about in terms of the Inca, as well

29:19

as the beauty of their places that we

29:21

can now go and visit, Oyanto Tamba, who's

29:23

going to match up with you. Amazing. Thank

29:25

you, Bill. Thoughts on that, Sue? You're

29:27

right. Let's boil it down to the potato at the

29:29

end. It was a magnificent civilization, but yeah, we've

29:32

got the Inca gold, the real Inca gold,

29:34

which is the spud. You're right. Where would

29:36

we be? I'd just like to say a

29:38

huge thank you to our guests. In archaeology

29:40

corner, we had the brilliant Professor Bill Silla

29:42

from University College London. Thank you, Bill. Thank

29:44

you very much. It's been fun. And in

29:46

comedy corner, we have the sensational Sue Perkins.

29:48

Thank you, Sue. Thank you. I'm off to

29:50

now smash the potatoes under sort of freeze

29:52

dry them. And

29:55

to you, loveliness, now join me next time

29:57

as we unravel another naughty historical topic. For

30:00

now, I'm off to join Sue in asking HMRC if

30:02

I can nip my chance to it and weave it

30:04

into the rankings. Hi,

30:22

I'm Una Chaplin and I'm the host

30:25

of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles.

30:28

It tells the story of how

30:30

my grandfather, Charlie Chaplin, and many

30:32

others were caught up in a

30:34

campaign to root out communism in

30:36

Hollywood. It's a story

30:38

of glamour and scandal and political

30:40

intrigue and a battle for

30:43

the soul of a nation. Hollywood

30:45

Exiles from CBC Podcast and

30:47

the BBC World Service. Find

30:50

it wherever you get your podcasts.