3:59

serial killer into a cultural icon

4:02

was gross then and it remains so

4:04

today. And I'm hesitant to play

4:06

into that by talking about Ted Bundy

4:08

in this podcast.

4:10

But it's important to understand just how

4:12

pervasive Bundy was in the minds of

4:14

police and the public during

4:17

the late 1970s and through the 1980s

4:20

for the story you are about to hear.

4:22

Florida scheduled a new execution date

4:24

for Ted Bundy in January of 1989. This

4:28

time Bundy's legal challenges were

4:30

swept aside. And so with no

4:32

other option to forestall his appointment with

4:34

the electric chair, Bundy started

4:36

to talk. He spoke with investigators

4:39

in the hopes of delaying his impending death.

4:41

Okay, I've turned the recorder on. We'll do what

4:44

we can. That's how a detective

4:46

named Dennis Couch from the Salt Lake

4:48

County Sheriff's Office in Utah ended

4:50

up sitting down with Ted Bundy on January

4:52

22nd, 1989. This

4:55

audio comes from that interview. That's

4:58

my first and foremost reason for being here, for those

5:00

three girls that are missing and

5:03

some more. From Utah?

5:05

Yeah.

5:06

The tape recording of this interview

5:08

is sometimes difficult to understand.

5:10

But during their 90 minutes together, Bundy

5:13

told Detective Couch he was responsible

5:16

for five murders in Utah. Along

5:18

with the Kent and Wilcox murders, Couch

5:21

says Bundy gave useful information that

5:23

should help investigators solve the murders of Melissa

5:26

Smith and Laura Amy.

5:27

Police had already found two of the bodies,

5:30

those of Melissa Smith and Laura Amy.

5:33

Bundy tried to tell them where they might find two others,

5:36

Deborah Kent and Nancy Wilcox.

5:39

But that left one victim unidentified. Sorry.

5:42

You're catching me when you are. Yeah,

5:45

I'm just getting quite anxious myself. I

5:47

hear you. I hear you. We're

5:52

all up against some dead lives. I

5:54

don't bring all this up simply to relive the past.

5:57

I want you to hear what Ted

5:59

Bundy said.

5:59

when Detective Couch asked him

6:02

about a specific, unsolved

6:04

case. Further up was Nancy Baird,

6:06

who worked at a gas station. He

6:09

was on the 4th. The disappearance of

6:12

Nancy Perry Baird. But Couch

6:14

did not get the answer he was hoping for regarding

6:17

another Utah murder, that of Nancy

6:19

Baird of Layton.

6:20

Bundy insisted he had no part of

6:22

that killing. Nancy Baird's name

6:24

might sound familiar. It came up

6:26

in passing during our discussion of the

6:28

Sherry Warren case in Cold Season 3. But

6:31

I couldn't take too deep of a diversion into

6:34

it then.

6:34

So we're going to do that now. Nancy

6:38

Baird vanished from a gas station where she

6:40

worked in East Layton, Utah, on

6:42

the evening of July 4th, 1975.

6:45

In the years that followed, many people

6:48

came to the conclusion Ted Bundy

6:50

abducted and killed her. Do you recall

6:53

what type of place it was that she was working

6:56

in and where it was located? Which

6:58

highway? No, I didn't

7:00

have anything to do with that. That's

7:03

a very... Even today,

7:05

Nancy Baird's name appears in online

7:08

lists of suspected Ted Bundy victims.

7:11

Many of Nancy's own relatives even believe

7:13

Bundy killed her.

7:14

But Bundy said he wasn't responsible.

7:17

But I didn't. I don't know what I

7:19

think about that this year. Nancy

7:23

Baird's body has never been found.

7:26

The detective who interviewed Bundy, Dennis

7:28

Couch, is retired now.

7:30

I've talked to him. He declined my

7:32

request for a recorded interview, but he

7:34

told me he hadn't been personally

7:37

familiar with the details of the Nancy Baird

7:39

case back in 1989 when

7:41

he had questioned Bundy.

7:43

Nancy Baird's disappearance had happened

7:45

in a different county and deputies

7:47

there had just asked Detective

7:49

Couch

7:50

to show Nancy Baird's picture to Bundy and

7:52

ask what he had done to her.

7:54

Bundy had seemed not to recognize the photo

7:57

or the name Nancy Baird. Can

7:59

we go back?

9:50

was

10:00

probably telling the truth when

10:03

he said he didn't know anything about

10:05

the death of Nancy Baird. But

10:08

Ted Bundy cast a long

10:11

shadow, and because of it,

10:14

no one did any significant

10:16

work on Nancy Baird's case for

10:19

decades.

10:22

This

10:22

is a bonus episode of Cold, season

10:24

three, the convenient alternative.

10:28

From KSL Podcasts, I'm

10:30

Dave Cauley.

10:44

The Fourth of July fell on a Friday in 1975.

10:48

It

10:51

marked the start of a long, hot holiday

10:53

weekend. Many Utahns hit

10:55

the road, hoping to escape the heat by

10:58

heading to the mountains. Denzel

11:00

Williams, on the other hand, spent the day at home

11:03

with his wife and kids. He lived in a town

11:05

called Caysville, midway between the cities

11:07

of Salt Lake and Ogden. A little

11:09

after 5 p.m. on the afternoon of July 4th,

11:12

Denzel drove from his house to a gas station

11:14

a couple of miles up the road in the neighboring

11:16

town of East Layton.

11:18

We had to get gas for

11:20

a rototiller. That's the voice

11:22

of Denzel's son, David Williams. He

11:25

was a few weeks shy of his 14th birthday

11:27

when he accompanied his dad on this errand

11:29

in 1975. They drove together

11:32

to the gas station, which sat alongside

11:34

U.S. Highway 89. The FINA

11:36

station, I remember, it was green

11:39

and white. Denzel pulled his

11:41

Dodge Dart to a stop next to one of the pumps.

11:44

David stepped out onto the blacktop, followed

11:47

by his little sister,

11:48

nine and a half-year-old Janna.

11:51

David and Janna told me, as kids, the FINA

11:54

station was a favorite stop for... Popping.

11:57

Chips. Chips and candy.

12:00

Jana dashed into the store while

12:02

David retrieved a small gas can from the car's

12:05

trunk. He filled it, then handed the

12:07

hose off to his dad.

12:08

Denzel started filling the car. He

12:11

planned to take his son David golfing the next

12:13

morning and wanted to start their trip to the

12:15

golf course with a full tank. I was

12:17

excited because I was

12:19

a teenager able to go

12:22

play golf with my father at that time because

12:24

we didn't get out and do that

12:26

very often together. Denzel gave

12:28

David his credit card and told him to go inside

12:31

and pay for the gas. This was long

12:33

before technology allowed for pay at the pump.

12:36

David followed his little sister Jana through

12:38

the door into the Fena station's convenience

12:40

store. As you walk in, there were, I

12:43

recall, two men at

12:46

the end of the counter

12:48

talking to Nancy. Nancy

12:52

Perry Baird, the clerk, was 23

12:54

years old.

12:55

She was petite, standing only five foot

12:58

two and had long strawberry

13:00

blonde hair. She appeared younger

13:03

than her age and she caught David's

13:05

eye. I believe she had a halter

13:07

top on and shorts. I'm like,

13:09

oh, she's cute. David stood there

13:11

for a moment holding his dad's credit card, looking

13:14

at the two older guys who were talking

13:16

to Nancy. I didn't want to interrupt

13:18

this conversation they were having. The

13:22

one guy, he did

13:24

have kind of longer hair, like a

13:27

Levi jacket that was faded.

13:31

I think they both had longer hair. Jana,

13:34

meanwhile, wandered down between the shelves

13:36

of candy toward a case of chilled drinks.

13:39

And I do remember walking

13:42

through the store and I just

13:44

remember seeing one man. After

13:46

a moment, Nancy took notice of David. She

13:49

paused her conversation with the two men at the counter

13:52

and took the credit card from David.

13:54

And as I was doing the transaction,

13:57

they were just kind

13:59

of. There? Nancy

14:02

placed the card on a device known as

14:04

an imprintor. She takes it, puts

14:07

it on a little machine.

14:10

In the days before Tap to Pay or even

14:13

magnetic stripes on credit cards, Clerks

14:15

used imprintors or

14:18

click clacks, as they were sometimes called, to

14:20

make physical rubbings of the raised letters and

14:23

numbers on each customer's card. And

14:25

then she writes down how much it was.

14:28

And if you bought anything else, she would add that

14:30

to it. And then you had to physically

14:33

sign

14:34

the paper and she gave you a copy

14:37

and then she kept a copy. As Nancy

14:39

imprinted the card for David, Jana approached

14:41

her brother carrying a bottle of raspberry soda.

14:44

I was getting a drink. You wouldn't pay

14:46

for it? No. So I had to pay

14:48

for my own. And I remember she was

14:50

a very nice clerk. David

14:52

headed back outside into the heat with the credit

14:55

card receipt, while Jana handed Nancy

14:57

Baird the chilled bottle of soda.

14:59

The total came to 29 cents. Jana

15:03

counted out her pennies and she only

15:05

had 28. With

15:07

a smile, Nancy told her young customer

15:10

not to worry about the extra cent. She'd

15:13

take care of it. Jana

15:15

then followed her brother outside, not

15:18

realizing she would be

15:20

the last person known to

15:22

ever see Nancy Baird.

15:26

Except I can already see the emails

15:29

and DMs I'm going to receive from people

15:31

who Google Nancy Baird's name, then

15:33

message me to say I'm wrong on this fact.

15:36

Jana Williams wasn't the last person to see

15:38

Nancy Baird, they'll say. If

15:41

you look up Nancy Baird on NamUs,

15:43

the U.S. government's missing and unidentified

15:46

person's database, you'll read Nancy

15:48

was last seen by a patrol

15:51

officer 15 minutes before her disappearance.

15:54

There is no mention in the database of David

15:56

or

15:56

Jana Williams. So which

15:59

account is correct? Correct. They

16:01

both are. Sort

16:04

of. East

16:06

Layton was a town with a population of about 1,000

16:08

people in 1975. The

16:11

little bedroom community, speckled with cherry

16:14

orchards, sat against the foot of the Wasatch

16:16

Mountains. US Highway 89 crossed

16:19

through East Layton from north to south,

16:21

linking it to larger cities nearby. The

16:24

highway was the only reason East Layton

16:27

had any tax base to speak of. There

16:29

were only three businesses in the town, two

16:32

of them being gas stations on opposite

16:34

sides of the highway at a cross

16:35

street called Cherry Lane. One

16:39

of those gas stations was the Fena, where

16:41

Nancy Baird worked. Nancy spent

16:43

the first part of her life in the nearby city of

16:45

Ogden.

16:46

The Perry family moved to East

16:48

Layton in about 1964. Nancy

16:52

attended high school in Layton City proper,

16:54

graduating in the class of 1970. Towards

16:58

the end of her senior year, shortly after

17:00

her 18th birthday,

17:01

Nancy became pregnant. The father

17:04

was a young man named Floyd D.

17:06

Baird, who was about six months older

17:08

than Nancy. Floyd and Nancy

17:10

married in April of 1970.

17:12

They welcomed their son that October. The

17:15

Young Baird family spent a few rough

17:18

years together and ultimately divorced

17:20

around the start of 1974.

17:22

Floyd would later tell police he and

17:24

Nancy remained on good terms after

17:26

the split, finding they got along better

17:28

as exes than they had as husband

17:30

and wife.

17:32

Nancy maintained custody of their son.

17:35

She divided her time between caring for him and

17:37

working to support herself and her child.

17:41

Going back through old newspaper archives, I

17:43

found a help wanted ad for the Fena station

17:45

from 1973.

17:48

It advertised an hourly pay rate of $1.70.

17:51

That's about the same as a job offering $11.30 an hour in early 2023.

17:58

Nancy probably made less than that.

17:59

Considering even today, U.S. Census

18:02

Bureau data shows adult women working

18:04

full-time in Utah earn, on average,

18:07

only 72% as much as their

18:09

male counterparts.

18:11

And there's evidence in the record to support the idea

18:13

Nancy Baird was underemployed. Case

18:16

files show she told an employment counselor

18:18

in March of 1975 she felt

18:20

unhappy and wanted a better opportunity

18:23

for herself.

18:24

But that opportunity hadn't yet

18:26

materialized when she headed to work at

18:28

the FINA station

18:29

on the afternoon of the 4th of July, 1975.

18:34

She had spent that morning with her parents, siblings,

18:37

and son at the house in East Layton

18:39

where she had grown up. Just before 3 p.m.,

18:42

Nancy left her 4-year-old boy with her parents

18:45

and drove to the FINA station a mile down

18:47

the road. She was scheduled to

18:49

stay at the FINA until midnight, running

18:51

the register on what promised to be a busy

18:54

holiday evening.

18:55

With any luck, she might catch a glimpse

18:58

of fireworks out over the valley after

19:00

dark. Nancy had

19:02

been on shift a couple hours when, just

19:04

after 5 p.m., a familiar

19:06

face came through the door. It belonged

19:09

to a guy named Dave Anderson,

19:11

East Layton's lone full-time police

19:14

officer. His primary

19:16

responsibility was riding tickets to

19:18

lead-footed motorists on the highway. He

19:21

often parked his patrol car outside the FINA

19:23

station, as it provided an inconspicuous

19:26

place to monitor traffic. According

19:28

to a report, Officer Dave Anderson later

19:30

wrote, he stopped into the FINA station

19:32

around 5 p.m., on the 4th of July, to buy a drink.

19:37

He chatted briefly with Nancy and

19:39

said everything seemed 10-4. That's

19:41

police dispatch code for Roger or

19:44

Understood. In the context of this report,

19:46

it appears Anderson meant okay, as

19:49

in, he didn't notice anything out of the

19:51

ordinary.

19:52

The report says Officer Dave Anderson then

19:54

received a radio call about a situation

19:57

at the other gas station, just on the other

19:59

side of the highway.

19:59

Highway, Kitty Corner, from the

20:02

Phoenix Station. So at about

20:04

5.20pm, Dave went to his car,

20:07

drove across the four lanes of traffic,

20:09

and confronted two men suspected of driving

20:12

drunk. He reportedly pulled

20:14

their licenses and radioed their information

20:17

to dispatch.

20:18

This timeline provided by Officer

20:20

Dave Anderson in an official report

20:23

put him at the Phoenix Station during the

20:25

same period of time David and Jana Williams,

20:28

the two child witnesses, were there with

20:30

their dad. But the Williamses

20:33

never mentioned seeing a police officer.

20:36

I've never read the report,

20:38

but what did surprise me when

20:42

I heard is that

20:45

there was an officer across the street,

20:47

and I don't recall if they have a timestamp

20:50

on that.

20:51

The two timelines conflict with

20:54

one another. And when the story of Nancy

20:56

Baird's disappearance first made the news, it

20:58

was Officer Dave Anderson's version that

21:01

was publicly reported.

21:03

But based on my review of the records, it seems

21:05

likely Officer Anderson left

21:07

the Phoenix Station before the Williams family

21:10

arrived, because they did not

21:12

see a police car there.

21:13

I remember thinking it was not

21:16

very many, it was quiet. No,

21:18

there weren't very many vehicles there. At

21:21

about 5.30pm, while Officer

21:23

Dave Anderson was still across the highway dealing

21:26

with the suspected drunk drivers, a

21:28

woman named Bonnie Peck dropped by

21:30

the Phoenix Station.

21:31

She was the manager, Nancy Baird's

21:34

boss.

21:35

Bonnie went to the cash register to grab

21:37

a few bucks, only to find an irritated

21:39

man waiting there. Did you go for

21:41

a beer or something? He quipped.

21:44

Bonnie shot the man a quizzical look. Isn't

21:47

she here? Bonnie asked, referring to

21:49

Nancy. Bonnie looked

21:51

around and realized Nancy

21:54

was not at the station.

21:57

Officer Dave Anderson reported he looked back

21:59

across the highway.

21:59

highway at the FINA station at about 5.35

22:03

p.m.

22:04

He saw a green van parked out front

22:07

with several hippie types, as he

22:09

described them, milling around.

22:12

Anderson said he drove back across the highway

22:14

to the FINA station to check it out.

22:17

It's not clear why he believed a van

22:19

parked outside a gas station amounted

22:21

to a situation that needed checking

22:24

out.

22:24

And Officer Anderson's report doesn't say

22:27

anything about these hippie guys

22:29

and their van after that.

22:32

Instead, he described stepping inside

22:34

the convenience store to see a frazzled Bonnie

22:37

Peck standing at the register. Have

22:39

you seen Nancy? Peck reportedly asked

22:41

Officer Anderson. Yeah, Anderson

22:44

said. He had seen her about 15 or 20

22:47

minutes ago when he had bought a soda from her. She

22:49

wasn't around? No, Bonnie

22:52

said. But Nancy's purse and keys

22:54

were both still inside the FINA station, so

22:56

it didn't appear Nancy had left on her own.

23:00

Officer Anderson peered outside and saw Nancy's

23:02

car,

23:02

another clue suggesting

23:05

Nancy had not driven away by herself.

23:08

Officer Anderson picked up the telephone and dialed

23:11

his chief, a man named Ray Adams.

23:14

It rang with no answer. Anderson

23:16

wrote in his report he then dialed the phone number of

23:19

Floyd D. Baird, Nancy's ex-husband.

23:22

Anderson didn't explain how he knew who Nancy's

23:24

ex was, so this could be an indication

23:26

he knew Nancy as more than just an acquaintance.

23:30

In any case, Floyd D. Baird didn't

23:32

answer either. Anderson

23:34

keyed his radio, connecting with dispatch

23:37

in the neighboring city of Layton. He asked an

23:39

officer there to call the local hospitals

23:41

to see if Nancy Baird might have had a medical

23:43

emergency. Then, with

23:46

no better idea of what to do, Officer

23:48

Anderson stepped outside and started to

23:50

search the area around the station for

23:53

any sign of Nancy. The FINA

23:55

station faced east, toward the highway

23:57

and the Wasatch Mountains.

23:59

North was Cherry Lane, a quiet

24:02

street lined with single-family homes.

24:04

To the south... The south was just

24:07

an orchard. Yeah. It

24:09

was vacant. It was an orchard. A few

24:11

small outbuildings sat on the edge of the orchard. Anderson

24:14

poked around them, as well as a set of storage

24:16

sheds tucked behind the Fina station.

24:19

He didn't report finding anything. At

24:22

around 7 p.m., an hour and

24:24

a half from when Nancy Baird was last seen,

24:27

Nancy's older half-sister Norma dropped

24:29

by the Fina station to talk to Nancy. She

24:32

instead ran into Officer Anderson, who

24:34

was still searching the grounds.

24:37

Norma asked where Nancy had gone.

24:40

Officer Anderson didn't have an answer. Norma

24:44

took Officer Anderson up to her parents'

24:46

house. Anderson asked Nancy's

24:48

parents if anything had seemed to miss that

24:50

day. They said no. Nancy

24:53

had been in good spirits. And

24:55

they were still tending her 4-year-old son. They

24:58

didn't think Nancy would have taken off without

25:00

him.

25:01

Dave Anderson was out of

25:03

his depth. He didn't have the

25:06

training or experience to know

25:08

how to investigate a case like this. So

25:11

he drove down to his police chief, Ray

25:13

Adams' house, and picked him up. Ray

25:16

Adams wasn't much more of a cop

25:18

than Officer Dave Anderson. But

25:20

Adams lived around the corner from a Davis County

25:23

Sheriff's deputy named Bud Cox.

25:26

Adams briefed Cox on the situation and

25:28

asked what he and Officer Dave Anderson

25:30

ought to do about it.

25:31

In a report, Deputy

25:33

Cox wrote he thought the situation warranted,

25:36

quote, serious investigation.

25:39

What if she doesn't come back by

25:42

morning, Chief Ray Adams reportedly

25:44

asked. Deputy Cox

25:47

said in that case they should perform an

25:49

all-out search. Assume

25:52

the worst

25:52

and hold nothing back.

26:10

Early on Saturday, July 5th, 1975,

26:13

the morning after Nancy Baird vanished, a

26:16

group of deputies and detectives

26:18

from the Davis County Sheriff's Office received

26:20

a page. One of them was

26:22

a man named Kenny Payne. All

26:25

of a sudden, you've got to notice it says

26:27

that Lieutenant Egbert wants a meeting

26:30

with these people at 9

26:33

o'clock in the morning down at Sheriff's Office.

26:36

Kenny arrived at the Sheriff's Office to find a

26:38

group of about 10 of his colleagues

26:40

there. East Layton's police chief, Ray

26:43

Adams, and the town's lone full-time

26:45

officer, Dave Anderson, were there too.

26:48

What was your opinion at the time

26:51

of the East Layton Police Department?

26:55

Well, it experienced

26:59

to be one. Many of the Davis

27:01

County deputies did not hold their

27:03

colleagues from East Layton in high

27:05

regard, for reasons we'll explore

27:08

in more detail a bit later. It's

27:10

enough to know for now East Layton lacked

27:12

the manpower and know-how to run

27:14

a major missing persons investigation, and

27:17

that's why the Davis County Sheriff's Office stepped

27:19

in to help.

27:21

Officer Dave Anderson briefed the deputies

27:23

about the circumstances of Nancy's disappearance.

27:26

He told them she had left her car keys and

27:28

purse behind, with $167 in cash still in her wallet.

27:34

That struck Kenny as odd. Then

27:37

her just disappeared and you say, okay,

27:39

that's, you know,

27:41

something's happened.

27:43

Officer Anderson said the night prior he had

27:45

gone to Nancy's house and retrieved

27:47

an address book containing names and

27:50

numbers of Nancy's friends. He'd

27:52

also obtained a photo album, which included

27:54

pictures of Nancy and some of the men

27:56

she had dated since divorcing her ex-husband,

27:59

Floyd D.P.

27:59

shared. Sheriff's Lieutenant

28:02

Dean Egbert handed out assignments. One

28:05

of the deputies would go up in a helicopter

28:07

to visually scan for any sign of Nancy

28:09

along the highway. Others would

28:11

make contact with Nancy's friends and

28:13

romantic partners, past and present.

28:16

Two names had risen to the top of that list.

28:19

Floyd D. Baird, Nancy's ex-husband,

28:22

and Dennis Forsgren, a recent divorcee

28:24

Nancy had spent time with.

28:26

Alibis soon learned both men

28:29

had alibis. Floyd Baird had

28:31

gone to Jackson Hole, Wyoming with a friend

28:33

for the 4th of July holiday weekend.

28:35

Dennis Forsgren was traveling as

28:37

well, with his parents in Phoenix, Arizona.

28:40

They had both left the state at least a day

28:42

before Nancy vanished.

28:45

Floyd D. Baird and Dennis

28:47

Forsgren are both deceased, so

28:49

I can't talk to them. But it's clear

28:51

from the case records they didn't remain

28:53

persons of interest very long. Where

28:56

alibis were quickly verified. The

28:59

sheriff's deputies did hone in on a third

29:01

man, though, whose alibi wasn't

29:03

quite as solid. His

29:05

name was Monte Torres. So

29:08

now I'm going to tell you how deputies

29:11

identified Torres as a person of interest.

29:14

Sheriff's Detective Kenny Payne received an assignment

29:16

as well on that Saturday morning. My

29:20

assignment was to go up

29:22

to Park City, where

29:26

Mr. Williams and his family were playing

29:29

golf. Earlier, we heard from the Williamses,

29:32

David and Jana. Apparently, they were

29:34

the last persons to

29:36

see

29:37

anybody in the store. But

29:40

how did investigators know this? The

29:42

credit card receipts.

29:44

East Layton police had retrieved

29:46

receipts from the FINA station. They found

29:49

the imprint of Denzel Williams' card that Nancy

29:51

had made using that imprinter device

29:54

mere minutes before she vanished.

29:56

They had called Denzel only to learn

29:58

he and his son David were not a I asked the

30:00

lieutenant, I said, okay, now what are they doing? They're

30:03

playing golf. Young

30:08

David Williams was on the golf course with his dad when

30:10

someone approached. The

30:12

assistant or person

30:15

up there came out and said,

30:18

there is a detective who

30:21

would like to talk to you about

30:25

missing persons. And we're like,

30:27

who? Who? And they indicated that

30:29

it was this girl from the FINA

30:33

gas station and we were the last people

30:36

to see her.

30:38

Detective Kenny Payne joined the

30:40

Williamses. Rode with us in

30:42

the golf cart and interviewed

30:45

my father and I. He would just talk

30:47

to us after every shot.

30:50

18 holes. You know, and I didn't want

30:52

to give any golfing advice because I don't golf.

30:54

We'd get in and he would ask questions and

30:57

that's kind of what I remember.

30:59

It all seemed surreal to

31:01

David Williams. And I was thinking,

31:03

that's

31:07

got to be a mistake. I just saw her. I

31:09

was just, I saw her. She

31:12

was fine. And

31:14

I couldn't believe really that

31:18

she was gone. I have a copy

31:20

of a report Kenny Payne wrote about this interview.

31:23

It says Denzel Williams described pulling

31:25

up to the pump and seeing an

31:28

older man entering the restroom at

31:30

the FINA station. The restroom

31:32

was a separate building. The

31:34

guy came out a couple of minutes later while the

31:36

Williams children were still inside paying

31:39

for the gas and a soda. The restroom

31:41

guy was tall, skinny, dark-haired,

31:45

and wore cowboy boots. He walked

31:47

a bit funny and might have been drunk. Denzel

31:50

wasn't sure where that older man ended

31:53

up, but

31:53

he didn't recall seeing this cowboy

31:56

enter the convenience store. David

31:59

Williams.

31:59

told Kenny Payne about the two men

32:02

he had seen inside the store. Kenny

32:04

pressed for specifics about their appearances.

32:07

You know, we'd talk about eyes and then they'd get

32:09

off and go hit the ball and then get

32:13

back on. We'd talk about more

32:16

eyes or more ears, hair. David

32:19

described them. The word hippie came

32:21

up. I can't believe I have to explain

32:23

this, but for younger listeners, hippies

32:25

were part of a counterculture movement in the 1960s and

32:28

1970s.

32:29

Think tie-dye, psychedelic

32:32

rock, free love, and anti-war sentiment.

32:35

The two men seen talking to Nancy Baird might

32:37

not have been actual hippies, but

32:39

they were bearded, with long hair, and

32:41

wore a lot of denim. Yeah, what they would

32:43

say, a hippie vibe that they... Not

32:46

uncommon. Right, not uncommon in the 70s, right?

32:49

Kenny Payne learned Jana Williams had likely

32:52

seen these two men as well. He asked

32:54

Denzel if he could meet with the kids later that

32:56

evening so they could put together composite sketches

32:59

of the men

32:59

to assist in identifying them. Denzel

33:02

agreed. I just remember he and my

33:04

mom coming to me and saying, we have to

33:07

go because you were the last

33:09

one to see her,

33:10

which really stuck in my mind, because that was

33:12

a scary thing. I didn't

33:15

know how someone could take a

33:18

pretty lady like that, and she

33:21

just gone missing.

33:22

Jana sat with her brother, parents,

33:25

and sheriff's detective Kenny Payne on

33:27

that Saturday night.

33:28

Kenny brought a wood box with

33:30

him.

33:31

I brought a similar box when I

33:34

went to interview Kenny.

33:36

So Kenny, tell me what we're looking at here. This

33:40

is my dentakits. Identikits

33:42

were invented in the 1960s.

33:45

Police agencies could use them to create

33:47

composite images of suspects without

33:50

needing to hire a sketch artist.

33:52

Each Identikit composite started with

33:54

an interview. Did he have any particular

33:56

facial features that really stood

33:59

out? Kenny

33:59

He posed this question to young Jana Williams.

34:02

I remember explaining his eyes, so I

34:04

must have looked at his eyes and

34:07

his eyebrows. Each identikit

34:09

came with a booklet that served as an index

34:11

for each part of the face. Kenny handed

34:14

the booklet to Jana while asking another question.

34:17

Can you look through some of these and find

34:20

some eyes that look like

34:22

what you remember? What to do is then

34:24

say, well, hey, you know, I really like

34:27

this one. Each image in the booklet was coded

34:29

by letter and number, E for

34:32

eyes, L for lips, H for hair, and

34:34

so on. The investigator would

34:36

take note of those codes, then dig

34:38

into that wood box I mentioned a moment ago. It

34:41

held a few hundred sheets of transparent plastic.

34:44

Kenny calls them foils. The foil

34:46

is numbered down here at the bottom. If you

34:48

look right here, you see this is O1. You

34:51

know, eyes. By stacking

34:54

and aligning the transparent foils, an

34:56

investigator could build a two-dimensional face

34:59

feature by feature. When you get

35:01

all of this done, then

35:04

you'll be able to

35:05

read a code across the bottom of it,

35:07

which is just a composite of all

35:10

the numbers that come across there. I

35:13

obviously wrote down the codes in

35:16

my report,

35:18

and I commend you for tracing

35:21

down an identikit because that's almost

35:23

an impossibility anymore.

35:25

I failed to mention, when I first obtained

35:27

the Nancy Baird case files, they included

35:30

Kenny Payne's report about building three

35:32

identikit composites based on

35:34

the descriptions provided by the Williams

35:37

family.

35:37

His report had the codes, but not

35:40

the images. I soon learned

35:42

I could recreate the images using

35:45

those codes,

35:46

if I could find an old identikit.

35:48

But that's not easy, because they're

35:51

antiques, and most were long

35:53

ago destroyed. I spent months

35:55

waiting for one to pop up on eBay.

35:57

I can now tell you what those three composites are.

36:00

The composites Kenny Payne built back in 1975 looked like. There's

36:04

an old, craggy-faced fellow.

36:06

He was the cowboy in the parking lot outside

36:09

the Phoenix station. But the ones who were

36:11

talking, actually talking and answering were

36:14

these two.

36:15

The composites of the other two hippie-type

36:17

men look very much alike. They

36:19

used the same nose, lips, beard,

36:22

and age lines.

36:23

Only their hair and eyes set

36:25

them apart. You know, I told the lieutenant,

36:27

I said, they could very well

36:29

be brothers.

36:31

Davis County deputies compared the composites

36:33

to pictures in Nancy Baird's photo albums.

36:36

They noticed one of the two hippie-type

36:38

composites looked an awful lot like

36:40

a man in one of Nancy Baird's pictures.

36:43

And that photo was marked with a name,

36:46

Monty Torres.

36:48

I'll stress here, identical composites were

36:50

far from exact. They might get

36:53

an investigator in the general neighborhood,

36:55

but were far from photo-realistic. I

36:57

wish they would have had better technology back

37:01

in the days, but we

37:03

had what

37:04

was best at the time.

37:07

I'm publishing these three identical

37:09

composites from the Nancy Baird case at

37:11

thecoldpodcast.com. So

37:14

you can see them and judge for yourself.

37:17

Case files say deputies showed the photo

37:19

of this man, Monty Torres, to

37:21

their witness, Jana Williams. Jana,

37:25

quote,

37:26

positively identified the picture

37:28

of Monty Torres as one

37:30

of the hippie-type individuals.

37:33

Clearly, the Davis County detectives

37:36

needed to talk to Monty Torres. They

37:38

soon learned Torres was at that time

37:40

staying in Pocatello, Idaho, about

37:42

two and a half hours away.

37:44

The deputies reached out to a detective

37:46

in Bannock County, Idaho, and asked

37:48

him to find Torres and interview him.

37:51

The detective did. And according to

37:53

a report, the Idaho detective

37:55

described Torres as acting, quote,

37:58

quite jittery.

37:59

Monte Torres reportedly

38:02

told the Idaho detective he had an

38:04

alibi for the evening of July 4th.

38:06

He said he had been vacationing at Lava

38:09

Hot Springs, a resort and water park

38:11

just outside of Pocatello.

38:13

Torres gave the detective a name of

38:15

someone who could supposedly confirm his

38:17

story. But by the time deputies

38:20

in Utah brought that man in for questioning,

38:23

they learned Torres had already called

38:25

him and coached him on what to say.

38:27

Here's what Davis County Sheriff's Lieutenant

38:30

Dean Egbert told the Deseret News about it,

38:32

his words read by a voice actor. We

38:35

are not satisfied with this deal in Idaho

38:37

and we are considering asking the

38:39

man to undergo a polygraph test next

38:42

week.

38:43

That's exactly what happened. Deputies

38:45

hauled Monte Torres in for a polygraph

38:48

examination about two weeks following Nancy

38:50

Baird's disappearance. Not searched

38:52

for records that would reveal the specific

38:54

questions asked, as well as Torres's

38:57

responses, but I have so far

38:59

been unable to find them.

39:01

All I can tell you comes from old

39:03

news reports that say all of the

39:05

persons of interest in Nancy Baird's disappearance

39:08

had alibis or past

39:10

polygraph examinations.

39:13

In other words, investigators

39:15

believed Monte Torres excluded

39:17

himself as a suspect by passing a

39:19

polygraph.

39:21

It surprised me to see how much weight

39:23

the investigators placed on this single

39:26

polygraph exam. Polygraphs

39:29

are not foolproof. Your biggest

39:31

thing is if I get to interview you face

39:33

to face and when

39:35

I start talking to you, I'm usually

39:37

talking to you when I've got a loaded question

39:40

and I know what the answer is. I just

39:43

want to see what

39:43

your answer is. I can't judge

39:46

how convincing Monte Torres's responses

39:48

were during the polygraph because

39:50

I don't even know what investigators

39:53

asked him, but Kenny did tell me

39:55

he recalled some division among

39:57

investigators afterward. Some

39:59

people...

39:59

They ruled him right out and other people

40:02

said, no, I don't think

40:04

so. And so I, you know,

40:06

I haven't given up on that one either.

40:14

The story of these two hippie type guys

40:17

seen talking to Nancy Baird just

40:19

before she disappeared matters more

40:21

than you might realize. What

40:23

I'm about to say has

40:25

never been publicly revealed.

40:27

It's been a secret of the Nancy Baird

40:30

case file for nearly 50 years. Nancy

40:33

had a friend named Dolores Drake who

40:36

lived in the city of Ogden. A Davis County

40:38

Sheriff's deputy interviewed Dolores early

40:40

in the investigation.

40:42

Dolores said on the night of July

40:44

2nd, less than 48 hours before

40:47

Nancy Baird disappeared, she,

40:49

Nancy, and a friend of theirs named Peggy

40:52

went out on the town.

40:53

Davis County Sheriff's Lieutenant Dean Egbert

40:55

summarized Dolores' account in a report.

40:58

Here's what he wrote. Dolores mentioned

41:00

Rigo's and the Iron Horse. Those

41:03

were two bars in Ogden where Nancy,

41:05

Dolores, and Peggy stopped that night.

41:08

Peggy headed home around 10.30 p.m. But

41:11

then Nancy and Dolores

41:13

went back out. And had driven in the

41:15

area of Washington Boulevard until approximately 2.30

41:18

and Nancy had taken Dolores home. At

41:21

approximately 0.300 on the morning of the 3rd, Nancy

41:23

had returned to Dolores' apartment and appeared

41:26

to be quite shaken and frightened. That

41:28

this fellow named Tom in a yellow van

41:31

had followed her home and was molesting

41:33

her.

41:33

The report doesn't say if the word molesting

41:37

was a direct quote from Dolores or

41:39

the lieutenants interpretation. In

41:41

this context, the word carries some ambiguity.

41:45

Molest means to pester or

41:47

harass, but it can also mean to

41:49

physically sexually assault.

41:51

It's not clear which meaning Lieutenant

41:54

Egbert intended. In

41:56

any case, he continued.

41:59

that quote, you're going to f*** or

42:02

else, end quote, as she opened

42:04

the door. Dolores ordered this

42:06

Tom from the premises and during the commotion,

42:08

Dolores' father, who lives across the

42:10

street, had come from his home and that

42:13

this time Tom had left in the yellow

42:15

van. This fellow, Tom,

42:18

wasn't alone. There was also another

42:20

individual who was riding a motorcycle.

42:23

Two men. One driving

42:25

a Volkswagen van. Remember,

42:29

East Layton police officer Dave

42:31

Anderson reported seeing a van

42:34

parked outside the FINA station moments

42:36

before discovering Nancy Baird had disappeared.

42:39

Earlier, you heard from David and

42:41

Jana Williams, who as children were

42:44

the last people known to have seen Nancy

42:46

Baird alive.

42:48

David told me he remembered reading

42:50

the newspaper reports recounting Officer

42:52

Anderson's version of The

42:54

officer looks over and sees that

42:56

there's people that are trying to buy gas

42:59

or trying to pay for snacks. When

43:01

I interviewed David and his sister Jana, I

43:04

pressed them, asking if they remembered

43:06

seeing any other cars outside the FINA

43:08

station.

43:09

I don't remember a lot of vehicles there.

43:12

David appeared lost in thought for a moment,

43:14

as if seeking back through the fog

43:16

of distant memory. I think there

43:18

were there may like a

43:22

van, a brown in color

43:28

that kind of looked like a hippie van, which

43:30

is kind of that

43:33

was parked on the north

43:39

side. My ears perked

43:41

up when David said this. He hadn't

43:43

mentioned a van when interviewed by Detective Kenny

43:46

Payne on the golf course back in 1975, and

43:49

I had scoured the archives of several Utah

43:51

newspapers from the time.

43:53

The articles published back then did not

43:55

include Officer Anderson's detail

43:57

about seeing a van that tidbit.

44:00

it was a guarded piece of the investigation,

44:02

not publicly revealed. So

44:04

I don't think it's possible for David Williams'

44:07

memory to have been tainted by news reports.

44:10

This is significant for

44:13

two reasons.

44:14

First, it bolsters East

44:16

Layton police officer Dave Anderson's story

44:18

of having seen a van from across the highway.

44:21

But more significantly, this

44:23

van at the Phoenix Station could be the

44:26

same one a man used

44:28

to chase Nancy Baird to the doorstep

44:31

of her friend Dolores' house less

44:33

than 48 hours before Nancy

44:35

disappeared. Dolores told

44:37

a deputy she recognized this man,

44:40

Tom. She gave investigators

44:42

his last name, Stone, and

44:44

said he lived nearby. A

44:46

solid lead, and yet

44:48

the investigators appear to have done

44:50

nothing with it. There's

44:52

no indication in the Nancy Baird case files

44:55

I've obtained. East Layton police

44:57

ever followed up on this lead Davis

44:59

County uncovered about Nancy

45:02

being stalked and potentially

45:04

sexually assaulted two nights

45:06

before she disappeared.

45:08

In fact, on July 28, 1975, East

45:12

Layton police chief Ray Adams told the Deseret

45:15

News his department was quote, at

45:17

a dead end in the search for Nancy

45:20

Baird. The chief said they had exhausted

45:22

their leads and would have to brainstorm

45:25

a new quote,

45:26

route to travel in the investigation.

45:30

That's absurd. Less than

45:32

a month had passed since Nancy's disappearance,

45:35

and already East Layton police

45:37

were ready to throw in the towel?

45:40

What the public didn't yet know

45:43

was the tiny department with a

45:45

staff of just four, a

45:47

part-time chief, a full-time officer,

45:50

and two part-time reserve officers

45:52

was on the brink of meltdown.

45:56

Chief Adams needed an alternative

45:58

explanation other than

45:59

in his own department's incompetence to

46:02

explain what had happened to Nancy

46:04

Baird. Only a

46:06

couple of weeks later, a trooper 30

46:09

miles south on the outskirts of Salt Lake

46:11

City would arrest a young law

46:13

school student named Theodore

46:16

Bundy. For

46:19

a long time, residents of Utah, Colorado,

46:21

and Washington have been following an incredible

46:24

mystery story, a story of murder,

46:26

imprisonment, and escape. And all along,

46:28

there has been one fascinating question. Could

46:31

a handsome, articulate, intelligent law

46:33

student with a promising career in politics,

46:36

could Theodore Bundy be a crazed sex

46:38

killer responsible for the brutal murders

46:40

of perhaps dozens of young women all across

46:43

the West? Serial killer Ted

46:45

Bundy's downfall began in

46:47

the state of Utah.

46:48

In November of 1974, Bundy

46:51

tried to abduct a woman named Carol Duranche

46:54

from a shopping mall in the suburbs of Salt

46:56

Lake City.

46:57

Carol fought back and managed to

46:59

escape, still carrying the handcuffs

47:01

Bundy tried to place on her. Bundy

47:04

is also a suspect in the disappearance

47:06

of Debbie Kent from Viewmont High and Bountiful.

47:09

On the same evening as his failed attempt to

47:11

abduct Carol Duranche, Bundy drove

47:14

north to the city of Bountiful, Utah.

47:16

He kidnapped a teenage girl named

47:19

Deborah Kent, plucking her from the parking

47:21

lot outside Viewmont High School.

47:23

Police found a handcuff key on the asphalt

47:25

there. It matched the cuffs from

47:28

the Carol Duranche case,

47:30

but no one could find Deborah Kent.

47:32

Ted Bundy wasn't arrested until many

47:35

months later in August of 1975. He

47:38

stood trial for the attempted kidnapping of Carol

47:40

Duranche in early 1976. Bundy

47:43

wasn't charged with the murder of Deborah Kent

47:46

because police hadn't been able to find her

47:48

body.

47:49

I attended the same high school

47:52

as Deborah Kent, though many years later.

47:55

I remember hearing whispered conversations

47:57

among classmates even then. the

48:00

late 90s,

48:01

full of rumor and exaggeration

48:03

about Ted Bundy.

48:05

And it's become such a big story that

48:07

there's even become kind of a mythology

48:09

built up about the case. That's

48:11

the voice of Tiffany Jean. She's a

48:13

government archivist based in Texas.

48:16

In 2019, Tiffany watched a Netflix documentary

48:19

called The Bundy Tapes. And

48:21

I'd heard the name before. I think everyone's

48:24

heard that name before. I didn't really know much about

48:26

the case. Tiffany found herself fascinated,

48:29

particularly by cases like Nancy

48:31

Baird's, where Ted Bundy was suspected

48:34

but never proven as the killer.

48:36

Yes, he confessed to at least 30

48:39

murders, but only 21 have been identified.

48:42

And that's always been a special interest

48:44

of mine is seeing if I could shed

48:47

any light on who those other

48:49

women could be.

48:51

Earlier, you heard clips from an interview

48:53

Ted Bundy gave days before his execution.

48:56

He admitted in that recording to killing

48:58

Deborah Kent. Was she

49:00

in any way dismembered? Was she buried

49:02

whole? Yeah. I

49:06

mean, yes, you should find all of it.

49:09

As far as anyone can tell, all of his

49:11

final confessions right before he was executed were truthful.

49:14

And that's because he had some self-interest.

49:16

He was trying to keep himself alive

49:19

by giving investigators

49:21

true information to buy himself some more time.

49:24

He just gives his bones for time.

49:26

Strategy is what it was called. Bundy

49:28

hoped police would search where he indicated,

49:30

find Deborah Kent's remains, then pressure

49:32

Florida into delaying his execution

49:35

so they could look for other victims.

49:37

He gave a pretty detailed description

49:40

of where he buried her. Did

49:42

you go back down through Salt Lake? Oh, yes, yes, yes.

49:44

Oh, did you? And you went farther south?

49:47

Yeah. Past program? Yeah.

49:50

Florida never had any intention of

49:52

delaying Bundy's execution.

49:54

Bones for time was a bust for

49:57

Ted Bundy.

49:58

Police did later... in

50:00

the area he'd indicated. Okay, let's

50:02

go. Serial killer

50:04

Ted Bundy said he buried the bountiful youth

50:06

somewhere in this area nearly 15 years ago. So

50:10

with shovels in hand and metal detectors

50:12

humming away, search and rescue crews

50:14

went back to work. This is the sixth

50:16

time they've combed the area. It took

50:19

several tries, but in the end, they

50:21

found a single human bone,

50:23

a

50:24

patella or kneecap. They

50:26

did find some unidentified human

50:28

remains at the site where Bundy claimed

50:31

he buried Deborah Kent.

50:32

Years later, DNA analysis

50:34

would confirm that patella belonged

50:37

to Deborah Kent. Ted

50:39

Bundy had told the truth in his

50:42

final days.

50:43

And as we've already heard, Bundy denied

50:45

any knowledge of Nancy Baird during that

50:47

interview.

50:48

So when he denies Nancy Baird,

50:52

that makes me think maybe he was actually

50:54

telling the truth in this situation.

50:57

Over the last few years, Tiffany Jean has

50:59

filed public records requests for

51:01

case files in the states where Ted Bundy is

51:03

known and suspected to have murdered

51:05

women.

51:06

And some of those turned into a fight. And

51:10

I just, it was more on the principle than anything

51:12

else that

51:14

they weren't gonna turn over these records that I really

51:16

felt like they should. In Utah, Tiffany

51:18

repeatedly won the release of records,

51:21

many of which had never before been shared publicly.

51:24

She feels strongly, and I agree,

51:26

it's important these records be preserved

51:29

and studied with an emphasis on

51:31

the unsolved cases.

51:33

Records are a matter of putting facts

51:35

ahead of mythology.

51:37

I wanna know the real story of what happened. And

51:40

when you're reading only secondary sources,

51:44

you don't really get the whole picture.

51:47

And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted the whole picture.

51:50

Tiffany's developed a repository of well-sourced

51:52

factual information about the crimes of Ted

51:54

Bundy.

51:56

She's published portions of that on her website.

51:58

Hi, I'm Ted.

51:59

blog. I just want the most complete

52:02

archive of the case that exists.

52:05

Just kind of a, that's kind of my goal at this point.

52:07

I reached out to Tiffany in 2022. I knew she'd requested

52:10

the Nancy Baird case

52:12

file from the Davis County Sheriff's Office and

52:14

Ben refused because it's

52:16

technically still an open case. I

52:19

had also requested the Baird case file and

52:21

likewise Ben refused.

52:22

I didn't write a grammar appeal like you did though.

52:25

Gramma is Utah's open records law.

52:27

After my initial denial, I

52:30

appealed by arguing Nancy Baird's case

52:32

was open, but not active.

52:35

The public interest for transparency weighed

52:38

in favor of releasing the records. That

52:41

argument proved persuasive

52:43

and I became the first person outside of

52:45

law enforcement to review the Nancy Baird

52:47

case file in nearly 50 years.

52:50

So you beat me. I

52:52

shared what I had obtained of the Nancy Baird case

52:55

file with Tiffany. We both knew the public

52:57

consensus has long been Ted Bundy

52:59

was somehow responsible.

53:02

Which is interesting because in that

53:04

case file that you shared with me, his

53:06

name doesn't appear at all. This is

53:08

true,

53:09

but it's worth noting all of the files

53:11

in the records I obtained are dated July

53:13

of 1975, weeks before Bundy's first

53:17

arrest.

53:17

And that's another thing that jumped out at me was

53:20

how they really didn't

53:22

do enough work on this case. Or

53:24

maybe the records incomplete,

53:26

but it doesn't seem like they followed all the

53:29

leads that were there at the time.

53:31

Former Davis County Sheriff's detective Kenny

53:33

Payne collected evidence from Nancy

53:35

Baird's apartment in the days following her disappearance.

53:38

I remember going down to her house and

53:41

things that I was really interested in was

53:43

trying to find something

53:45

that would be identifiable to

53:48

her. Where East Layton police were

53:50

tossing up their hands in defeat, Davis

53:53

County detectives like Kenny Payne were

53:55

thinking ahead to someday in the future

53:57

when they might come across Nancy Baird's remains.

54:00

And so what I wound up

54:02

recovering was two

54:04

hair brushes. With strands

54:06

of Nancy's strawberry blonde hair

54:08

still tangled in the bristles. There's

54:10

still an evidence down at the sheriff's office. Several

54:13

weeks later, after Ted Bundy's

54:15

arrest,

54:16

police in neighboring Salt Lake County

54:19

worked with the FBI to scour Bundy's

54:21

car. The items they gathered

54:24

also ended up in evidence boxes. From

54:26

the boxes, clues to two killings,

54:29

and a glimpse of a bigger picture. Hundreds

54:31

of hair samples, vacuumed from the interior

54:34

of Bundy's little green Volkswagen.

54:37

The hair of at least 100 different people.

54:39

How many of them victims? Davis

54:41

County sent Nancy Baird's hair to the FBI

54:44

for comparison to the hairs collected from

54:46

Bundy's

54:46

Volkswagen Beetle. The

54:48

lab did not come up with a match. None

54:51

of the hairs from the car belonged

54:53

to Nancy Baird.

54:55

So that kind of made me think maybe it wasn't

54:58

Bundy. Maybe it was someone that she knew

55:00

she was willing to go with.

55:02

Who might Nancy have trusted? Perhaps

55:06

a familiar young man dressed

55:09

in a police uniform.

55:21

One of the people I've most wanted to talk

55:23

to about the Nancy Baird case is former

55:25

East Layton police officer Dave Anderson,

55:27

the man who first reported Nancy missing.

55:30

Dave Anderson is one of the only people

55:33

who could have successfully lured Nancy Baird

55:35

out of the FINA station during the narrow

55:37

window of five or ten minutes between

55:39

when she was last seen by David and Janet

55:41

Williams and when her manager showed

55:43

up and discovered she was gone.

55:45

The chief should have sidelined officer Anderson

55:48

until he could be cleared as a person of interest.

55:51

But that didn't happen.

55:52

And I can't confront former officer

55:54

Dave Anderson about this because he's

55:57

dead. Regardless, let's

55:59

explore. Explore Officer Anderson's background so

56:02

you can see why I view him in such a critical

56:04

light. David Ray Anderson

56:06

was born in May of 1951, the third

56:09

of three children in his family. He

56:12

never knew his older sister because she died

56:14

after being accidentally backed over by her

56:16

father, but Dave Anderson did grow

56:18

up with a brother, Earl, who was two

56:20

years his senior. When Dave was

56:23

eight, his father moved their family to the city

56:25

of Layton, Utah. Dave attended

56:27

Davis High School, graduating in the

56:29

class of 1969. That's

56:31

a different school and one year ahead of Nancy Baird,

56:34

so I'm not sure if they would have crossed

56:36

paths at that point.

56:38

A year later, in April of 1970,

56:41

Dave married a woman he had gone to high school with

56:43

named Marilyn.

56:45

He attended basic training for the United States

56:47

Marine Corps that summer, and in the fall

56:49

he and Marilyn welcomed their first child.

56:52

Dave's parents moved away from Layton

56:54

a short time later. They bought an old farmhouse 100

56:57

miles away in the rural town of Nephi,

57:00

Utah. Dave followed them,

57:02

dragging his reluctant bride and their

57:04

baby out to the countryside. The Andersons

57:06

had a second child while living in Nephi.

57:09

But all was not well behind the

57:11

scenes. Dave Anderson's marriage

57:13

was on the rocks. His wife

57:16

hated living in the sticks, and

57:18

his older brother was about to throw

57:20

the whole family into turmoil. In

57:23

June of 1972, Dave's

57:26

older brother Earl and a few other guys burglarized

57:28

a business. Earl and his companions

57:31

stole cash, credit cards, liquor, and

57:33

a handgun.

57:34

Earl landed in the Utah State Prison on a felony

57:36

conviction. Newspaper

57:39

archives show while in prison in August of 1973, Earl

57:41

set another inmate on fire,

57:45

leaving that man with serious burns over most

57:47

of his body. Others

57:50

charged Earl with attempted homicide and

57:52

moved him out of the state prison to a county jail

57:54

for his own protection. It

57:56

wasn't enough.

57:58

Retribution came in January. January

58:01

of 1974, when a group of jail inmates jumped

58:03

Earl. They allegedly forced

58:05

Earl to swallow tranquilizer pills, then

58:08

smothered him until he was dead.

58:10

Dave Anderson was just 22

58:12

when he buried his brother. I don't

58:14

know exactly how this experience impacted

58:17

him, but it's notable Dave immediately

58:19

turned his career aspirations toward becoming

58:22

a cop.

58:23

And this was just a year

58:25

and a half before Nancy Baird

58:27

disappeared. Dave's wife,

58:30

meanwhile, had reached her breaking point.

58:33

She separated from Dave and moved

58:35

back home to Layton. A short time

58:37

later, she filed for divorce.

58:39

Dave followed his estranged wife and kids

58:41

to Layton, finding a place of his own nearby.

58:44

He enrolled in a criminal justice program

58:46

at Weber State College and in October

58:49

of 1974, landed

58:51

a job as a police officer for the town

58:53

of East Layton. That was only 10 months

58:56

before Nancy Baird disappeared. As

58:59

I said before, the majority of Dave's

59:01

hours were spent patrolling US

59:03

Highway 89, and he spent a lot

59:06

of that time parked at

59:08

the FINA station where Nancy

59:10

worked.

59:12

Anderson was a young, inexperienced

59:15

cop with a complicated home life

59:17

when he spoke to Nancy at the FINA station

59:20

minutes prior to her disappearance.

59:22

We have only his word that their

59:25

conversation was polite.

59:27

It's a jump to go from there to seeing Officer

59:30

Dave Anderson as a suspect, but

59:32

what piques my interest is what happened

59:34

next.

59:35

Anderson abandoned his budding law

59:37

enforcement career just a couple of months after

59:39

Nancy Baird disappeared.

59:41

I'm not sure why. Requirements

59:45

to become a certified police officer in Utah

59:47

during the 1970s were a lot more

59:49

lax than they are now.

59:51

Under the law at the time, a prospective

59:54

officer was supposed to complete 200 hours of

59:56

training at the academy within 18 months

59:58

of being hired by a police officer.

59:59

agency. So when East

1:00:02

Layton hired Dave Anderson as its only full-time

1:00:04

police officer in 1974, it

1:00:07

started a countdown clock ticking.

1:00:09

He had a year and a half to get certified,

1:00:12

or he was out of a job.

1:00:14

Landing a spot at the police academy wasn't

1:00:16

easy. Prospective officers needed

1:00:18

to be sponsored. So guys like

1:00:20

Dave Anderson would often get hired by a

1:00:22

small town, attend the academy on the town's

1:00:24

behalf, then quit the small town job

1:00:27

to take a better paying position at

1:00:29

a bigger city department. Anderson

1:00:31

had probably hoped East Layton would sponsor

1:00:33

him to the academy, but that never happened.

1:00:37

I can't find any record of him getting

1:00:39

a police job anywhere else. He

1:00:41

just walked away.

1:00:44

Anderson becomes very difficult to track after

1:00:46

that point. Court records show his

1:00:48

ex-wife, Marilyn, filed a lawsuit

1:00:50

against him in 1989, seeking thousands

1:00:53

of dollars in unpaid child support.

1:00:55

Dave's name appears in both of his parents'

1:00:57

obituaries during the early 90s. Then

1:01:01

he's a ghost. I know he ended

1:01:03

up just over the state line in Mesquite, Nevada

1:01:06

during the early 2000s, but

1:01:08

their record show officer,

1:01:10

David Ray Anderson,

1:01:12

died in August of 2010.

1:01:15

There's no record to suggest

1:01:18

he was ever challenged on the story he had

1:01:20

told about the disappearance of Nancy

1:01:22

Baird.

1:01:26

It's a windy day in the spring of 2023, and I've spent

1:01:30

the last few hours in the car with my boss

1:01:32

and collaborator Cheryl Warsley, headed

1:01:35

to a remote community along the Snake River.

1:01:38

Cheryl, for the record, stay

1:01:40

where we are. Well, we are, I'm not

1:01:42

sure

1:01:44

where we are, Dave.

1:01:47

We are in Buell, Idaho. We've

1:01:49

come, unannounced, in the hopes

1:01:52

of talking to one of the other men who worked for

1:01:54

the East Clayton Police Department in 1975. Let's

1:01:56

see.

1:01:59

So kind of an

1:02:01

exception here. His

1:02:03

name is Thomas Jackson Jr. As

1:02:06

we walk toward his door, a tall white-haired

1:02:08

man steps out. Hi, how you doing?

1:02:11

Are you Tom? Tom Jackson

1:02:13

can see the microphone in my hand.

1:02:16

He asks, uh-oh, what did I do

1:02:18

now with a bit of a laugh? You

1:02:20

did nothing. You didn't do anything.

1:02:22

We're doing a history project on the Nancy

1:02:24

Baird case from way back in.

1:02:27

Oh, Nancy Perry Baird? You got it. Yeah, yeah.

1:02:29

That was a cop, yeah. Yeah, that would be great.

1:02:32

You want to come in? Is that OK? Is that all

1:02:34

right? He ushers us inside

1:02:36

and makes space on the couch.

1:02:39

I'm glad you're here, man.

1:02:42

It's just been exciting to know that our case

1:02:44

is still open, and I'm

1:02:46

tickled.

1:02:47

Tom Jackson was about four years older

1:02:49

than Nancy Baird, and he confirms they

1:02:52

knew each other as kids. She was a pretty

1:02:54

gal.

1:02:55

Tom had lived just down the street from Nancy.

1:02:58

In fact, he'd even married one of Nancy's friends,

1:03:00

a neighbor girl. They had stayed

1:03:02

in the neighborhood, living just off Cherry

1:03:04

Lane, a little ways behind the Fina

1:03:06

station where Nancy had worked.

1:03:08

Tom worked a full-time job, but around

1:03:10

the start of 1975, also

1:03:13

accepted a part-time position as a reserve

1:03:15

officer for the East Layton Police Department.

1:03:18

His reserve role was a little different than

1:03:20

Kerry Hartman's, which we heard about in Cold

1:03:22

Season 3. East Layton was a

1:03:24

lot smaller than Ogden City, so it asked

1:03:27

much more of its reserves. As

1:03:30

a result, Tom worked a more regular schedule,

1:03:32

received a paycheck,

1:03:34

and wrote a lot of tickets. Tom

1:03:37

told me on the day Nancy Baird disappeared,

1:03:39

he'd been driving around in one of the town's

1:03:41

two police cars. I didn't even hear

1:03:44

anything on the radio about it. Which

1:03:46

is a little strange, since Officer

1:03:48

Dave Anderson did describe radioing

1:03:50

dispatch about Nancy in his report.

1:03:53

In any case, Tom said he had

1:03:55

stopped by the Fina station that evening and

1:03:58

found his chief, Ray Adams,

1:03:59

and Officer Dave Anderson there. I

1:04:02

said, okay, I said, what's going on? I

1:04:04

said, Nancy's gone. I

1:04:07

said, what the crap, what? Tom

1:04:09

remembered going to Nancy's house and helping

1:04:11

retrieve her address book. According

1:04:13

to a report, Tom and the chief

1:04:15

then went and looked around a place called Fernwood

1:04:18

Park as the dark of night descended.

1:04:21

Why Fernwood? Well, it

1:04:23

was home to a sort of lover's lane,

1:04:26

a place in the hills where couples would park their

1:04:28

cars and make out.

1:04:29

The police found no sign

1:04:32

of Nancy there. Records

1:04:34

show Tom Jackson didn't have any involvement

1:04:37

with the Nancy Baird case after that. He

1:04:39

intentionally opted out. At that

1:04:41

time, I don't think I was, I don't

1:04:45

know, I wasn't a good cop, I would

1:04:47

say. I wanted to let someone else

1:04:50

handle it. I didn't want

1:04:52

to mess it up. In spite of this,

1:04:54

East Layton sent Tom Jackson to the Utah

1:04:56

Police Academy in September of 1975.

1:04:59

That's only about two and a half months

1:05:02

after Nancy Baird disappeared. Why

1:05:04

did Tom go to the academy instead of Officer

1:05:06

Dave Anderson? I'm not sure.

1:05:09

Tom didn't remember. Now

1:05:11

I've talked to one of Tom's academy classmates.

1:05:14

He said Tom struggled a bit, but

1:05:16

Tom did graduate the academy and was

1:05:18

certified to work in law enforcement. He

1:05:21

replaced Dave Anderson as

1:05:23

East Layton's full-time police officer. At

1:05:26

some point in the middle of all this, Tom talked

1:05:29

to the Davis County Sheriff's Office about next

1:05:31

steps in the Nancy Baird investigation. East

1:05:34

Layton had jurisdiction.

1:05:36

It was their call. The county

1:05:38

asked me, says, you want

1:05:40

to handle this? And I said, no way. All

1:05:42

we are are just little hick-town cops

1:05:45

here, so if we're gonna find her, you

1:05:47

guys are the ones that's gotta do it. Tom

1:05:50

knew the county had already tracked down several

1:05:52

of Nancy's boyfriends working off her address

1:05:54

book. They had the book and whatever name

1:05:56

was in there, they went after him. But

1:05:59

the boyfriend leads...

1:05:59

ran dry, right around the time

1:06:02

Ted Bundy entered the picture. Yeah,

1:06:04

there was suspicion of him. Tom's

1:06:07

mind didn't settle on Bundy, though.

1:06:09

He figured Nancy's abductor could

1:06:11

have been much closer.

1:06:13

This person must have been someone she

1:06:15

knew and had some trust

1:06:17

in him. That's the other reason

1:06:20

why I thought it was one of the cops, that one

1:06:22

cop. Former Officer

1:06:25

Dave Anderson.

1:06:27

Tom remembered Dave Anderson spending a lot

1:06:29

of time at the FINA station. He spent

1:06:32

too much time looking at women, too. He

1:06:34

thinks he's a ladies man. Yeah,

1:06:37

he's a good looking guy, so I'm sure he

1:06:39

thought so.

1:06:40

This description of former Officer Dave Anderson

1:06:43

reminded me of Kerry Hartman and his

1:06:45

brief time in the Ogden Police Reserve Corps,

1:06:47

which we talked about during Cold Season 3.

1:06:50

There are some people who are drawn to law enforcement

1:06:53

jobs for all the wrong reasons.

1:06:55

Dave Anderson, it seems, might

1:06:57

have been one of them. This idea

1:06:59

was overlooked, though, probably

1:07:02

because the East Layton Police Department

1:07:04

was itself in crisis.

1:07:06

Its chief, Ray Adams, shouldn't

1:07:09

have been chief. He wasn't a cop.

1:07:11

He'd secured his position through the good

1:07:13

old boy system. State law required

1:07:15

he attend the academy, but he wasn't willing

1:07:17

to take a leave from his full-time job to

1:07:20

do that.

1:07:21

So, in April of 1976,

1:07:24

Ray Adams vacated the chief of police

1:07:26

position. He instead became

1:07:28

a justice of the peace for the town, a

1:07:31

form of low-level judge, a

1:07:33

job for which Adams was also

1:07:35

not qualified.

1:07:37

Officer Tom Jackson departed the East

1:07:39

Layton Police Department not long after that.

1:07:42

He decided to leave law enforcement entirely

1:07:44

and went into private security work.

1:07:47

So within about a year of the disappearance

1:07:49

of Nancy Baird, the entire East

1:07:51

Layton Police Force turned over.

1:07:58

There is one other point I need to make.

1:07:59

to acknowledge here.

1:08:01

Former officer Tom Jackson has

1:08:04

a criminal record.

1:08:05

In 1986, 11 years after the

1:08:08

disappearance of Nancy Baird, Davis

1:08:10

County prosecutors filed a criminal charge

1:08:13

against Tom. He stood accused

1:08:15

of sexually abusing two young girls. He

1:08:18

pleaded guilty to a second-degree felony, which

1:08:20

made him eligible for a sentence of up to 15 years

1:08:23

in prison. But the judge only

1:08:25

placed Tom on probation. Tom's

1:08:28

wife divorced him in the years that followed. He

1:08:31

left Utah, remarried, and

1:08:33

then in 1995,

1:08:35

police arrested Tom Jackson again, this

1:08:38

time on charges of lewd conduct

1:08:40

with a child under 16 years of age. He

1:08:43

again pleaded guilty, but the Idaho

1:08:45

judge showed none of the leniency

1:08:47

the Utah judge had. Tom

1:08:50

received a life sentence. But

1:08:53

Tom's no longer in prison. Clearly,

1:08:56

he won an appeal that reduced his sentence

1:08:58

to 15 years. He served

1:09:00

that time, a fact he and I discussed

1:09:02

at the start of our interview.

1:09:04

Tom confided he felt a bit

1:09:07

nervous going on tape.

1:09:08

He hoped I wouldn't make a monster of him.

1:09:11

I promised to treat him fairly.

1:09:14

And Tom acknowledged his past complicates

1:09:16

how we might see him. I wouldn't

1:09:19

doubt if I was a suspect and all that.

1:09:21

That's okay with me. Because,

1:09:24

Tom says, he's taken polygraph

1:09:26

after polygraph as part of his probation.

1:09:29

And one of the questions in there is, you

1:09:31

committed any other crimes that we don't know about.

1:09:35

And when I said no, not at all,

1:09:37

and it come up true. So, that

1:09:40

pretty much

1:09:41

cleared me right there. It's a

1:09:43

lot of years, right? You would think that if you were a

1:09:45

suspect, somebody would have come and talked to you a long time ago.

1:09:48

Yeah, yeah. That's true.

1:10:00

After Tom Jackson left his job at

1:10:02

the East Layton Police Department a year following

1:10:05

Nancy Baird's disappearance, the town

1:10:07

hired a new officer, a guy named

1:10:10

Dave Davis. Town leaders quickly

1:10:12

promoted Davis to chief.

1:10:14

Davis told the Salt Lake Tribune

1:10:16

he was, working wonders with the

1:10:18

small budget provided to him in a 1977

1:10:21

newspaper story comically headlined, Yes,

1:10:25

East Layton Has a Police Department.

1:10:27

They just did not have the

1:10:29

funding to take and

1:10:32

keep somebody. Chief Davis also

1:10:34

inherited the Nancy Baird case.

1:10:36

He did nothing with it until in 1979,

1:10:40

four years on from Nancy's disappearance,

1:10:43

Davis hired a new patrol officer

1:10:45

named Gary McFarland. And

1:10:47

it came down to where it was just me

1:10:50

covering 12 hours and that chief would

1:10:52

cover the other 12 hours. And

1:10:55

there was a promise from the

1:10:57

city that if I did that,

1:10:59

they would send me to the police academy.

1:11:02

Chief Davis gave Gary former East Layton

1:11:04

police officer Dave Anderson's report about

1:11:07

the disappearance of Nancy Baird. There

1:11:09

just wasn't a lot. We were, you know, a very

1:11:11

small community. There was very few things

1:11:13

going on. Property disputes,

1:11:17

loose cows, loose horses,

1:11:20

that

1:11:20

kind of thing. It was just, that

1:11:22

was, that was a pretty big case. At

1:11:25

this same time, Ted Bundy was standing

1:11:27

trial for murder in Florida. As

1:11:30

the verdict approached reporters, editors

1:11:32

and photographers prepared for the climax

1:11:34

of the trial. The Bundy case has generated

1:11:37

vast amounts of publicity all over

1:11:39

Florida and in the western states of

1:11:41

Utah, Colorado and Washington. In

1:11:44

all those places, Bundy is suspected of

1:11:46

murders, all involving young women.

1:11:49

Gary and many others believed Ted Bundy

1:11:51

might have killed Nancy Baird.

1:11:53

It wasn't much of a leap. Bundy

1:11:55

had been in Utah this summer Nancy disappeared.

1:11:58

She had. the appearance

1:12:01

of some of the females that

1:12:03

he preferred. That's

1:12:06

all we have is the

1:12:09

method of operation fit. But

1:12:11

that suspicion didn't give Gary

1:12:14

any direction as to where to look for Nancy's

1:12:16

remains. It was becoming a

1:12:18

cold case, basically.

1:12:20

A little kerfuffle erupted

1:12:22

in East Layton around this same time. The

1:12:24

mayor fired Police Chief Davis, who

1:12:27

responded by telling the news media it was

1:12:29

an attack on the entire department. They

1:12:31

may be looking into an outside

1:12:33

agency to contract to and

1:12:35

dissolve the police department as a whole.

1:12:38

I suspect you probably don't much care

1:12:40

about all this small-town political squabble. But

1:12:43

I promise you, it's relevant

1:12:45

to the Nancy Baird case because of what

1:12:47

happened in the end. Nearly 400 angry

1:12:49

residents were in attendance at the city council meeting

1:12:52

because Mayor Delinn Yates was not going to

1:12:54

keep Police Chief Dave Davis on the job.

1:12:57

We don't want to contract with Davis County.

1:12:59

We don't want to contract with Layton City.

1:13:02

We want the police force we have with

1:13:04

the responsible, interested service that we

1:13:06

get from them. This protest

1:13:08

proved ineffective. East Layton

1:13:10

dissolved its police department. Officer

1:13:12

Gary McFarland, fresh out of the academy,

1:13:15

no longer had a job. But it didn't

1:13:18

stop there. The residents of

1:13:20

East Layton voted to disincorporate

1:13:22

at the end of 1980. Their

1:13:24

town ceased to be, and

1:13:26

neighboring Layton City swallowed

1:13:29

it whole.

1:13:30

The records of the East Layton Police Department

1:13:32

were lost to time.

1:13:34

All except for the report of former

1:13:36

police officer Dave Anderson about

1:13:38

the disappearance of Nancy Baird.

1:13:41

Gary McFarland still had it. It ended

1:13:44

up with me,

1:13:45

no direction as to what to do with it. But

1:13:48

it was in my custody.

1:13:50

But with East Layton gone, who would inherit

1:13:52

jurisdiction over Nancy Baird's case? Did

1:13:55

it belong to Layton City, which absorbed

1:13:57

East Layton? Or did the Davis County police force the police?

1:13:59

Sheriff's Office bear responsibility

1:14:02

given the work deputies there had done assisting

1:14:04

East Leighton early on. Davis County

1:14:08

provided a lot of the crime scene investigations

1:14:11

because small communities could not

1:14:14

provide that service.

1:14:15

As we saw with the Cherie Warren case in cold

1:14:18

season 3, victims fall through

1:14:20

the cracks when police agencies fail

1:14:22

to communicate.

1:14:23

And that's what also appears to have happened

1:14:25

with Nancy Baird. No one

1:14:28

took the initiative. It

1:14:30

wasn't Gary McFarland's case, but

1:14:32

he felt duty-bound to safeguard the

1:14:34

reports. Because it was one

1:14:37

of those cases that you knew

1:14:40

someday would have a lead. Gary

1:14:42

ended up taking another police job at a different

1:14:44

agency.

1:14:45

Year after year, he waited

1:14:47

for a phone call that might break the case.

1:14:50

Nobody ever came forward. Nobody

1:14:53

was ever found. Not

1:14:55

one tip. Not nothing. Gary

1:14:58

McFarland retired in 2012.

1:15:00

He turned the East Leighton police report

1:15:02

on Nancy Baird over to the Davis County Sheriff's

1:15:05

Office. They had come up with some other

1:15:07

theories besides

1:15:10

the only one that I ever came up with.

1:15:13

Buddy? Yeah. Yeah. Because

1:15:15

I'm stuck on it. It will

1:15:18

until I'm proven different. Gary still

1:15:20

believes Ted Bundy is the most

1:15:22

likely suspect in Nancy Baird's presumed

1:15:25

murder.

1:15:25

But he knows that's not the only

1:15:28

theory. The theories were that

1:15:31

it was possibly a law enforcement

1:15:33

officer that worked in the East Leighton.

1:15:38

The story we've heard so far leaves

1:15:40

me deeply skeptical about any

1:15:43

conclusion regarding Nancy Baird's death

1:15:45

being the work of serial killer Ted Bundy.

1:15:48

To my mind, there are too

1:15:50

many other plausible scenarios.

1:15:53

And Tiffany Jean, the archivist, told

1:15:55

me she's unsure as well. I

1:15:58

looked at the case a little bit.

1:16:00

And I thought that it didn't

1:16:02

quite fit his MO with

1:16:05

what I know about how he operated. What

1:16:07

was different? For one, the location.

1:16:11

Ted Bundy was never known to abduct a woman

1:16:13

from a gas station during daylight

1:16:15

hours. And while Bundy

1:16:17

was capable of doing that, he mostly

1:16:20

operated at night, and

1:16:22

he mostly avoided places where he could

1:16:25

be seen or picked out.

1:16:27

In his early crimes in Washington state, Bundy

1:16:29

sometimes approached women while claiming

1:16:32

to be injured, needing help to put something

1:16:34

in his car.

1:16:35

Would Nancy Baird have

1:16:37

taken that kind of bait? It

1:16:40

seems unusual that she would have been willing to

1:16:42

leave her post to do that when there

1:16:44

was no one else at the station.

1:16:45

Bundy liked to lure women to

1:16:48

his car, a light tan 1968 Volkswagen

1:16:51

Beetle, then handcuff them or knock them

1:16:53

unconscious.

1:16:55

If he had done something like that with Nancy

1:16:57

Baird, it probably would have happened

1:16:59

right in the parking lot outside the Phoenix

1:17:01

station. And that seems like kind of

1:17:03

a big risk

1:17:04

for Bundy to have taken.

1:17:06

None of the witnesses from the Phoenix station reported

1:17:09

seeing a Volkswagen Beetle like

1:17:11

Bundy's. And the descriptions

1:17:13

provided by the Williams children didn't

1:17:15

match Ted Bundy either. So

1:17:18

that's another reason that it seems unlikely

1:17:20

that it would have been him. Nancy Baird

1:17:22

vanished from the Phoenix station within the space

1:17:25

of just five or 10 minutes. Yeah,

1:17:27

I mean, she's just, she's just gone. No

1:17:29

signs of a struggle, no indication

1:17:31

she ran away. I mean, she's got a child

1:17:34

at home. So retired sheriff's detective

1:17:36

Kenny Payne gets why even some of

1:17:38

his former colleagues believe

1:17:40

to this day Ted Bundy abducted

1:17:43

and murdered Nancy Baird. But

1:17:45

then you have to try and figure out whether

1:17:47

or not the first thought of it's got

1:17:49

to be Ted Bundy. Well, no.

1:17:51

What can you find? It tells me a story.

1:17:54

What Kenny is saying is the elements necessary

1:17:56

to build a narrative about Ted Bundy

1:17:59

killing Nancy Baird. Baird just aren't

1:18:01

there. Tiffany Jean

1:18:03

also shared another, more compelling

1:18:06

reason why she questions Ted Bundy's

1:18:08

supposed involvement.

1:18:11

Bundy, she told me, might

1:18:13

have an alibi

1:18:16

for the day Nancy

1:18:18

Baird disappeared, and

1:18:20

Tiffany could be the first person

1:18:23

to ever piece it together. Ted

1:18:26

Bundy first moved to Utah in September

1:18:28

of 1974, having come from Washington State

1:18:32

to attend law school at the University of

1:18:34

Utah in Salt Lake City.

1:18:36

He had a steady girlfriend who lived in

1:18:38

Seattle, who was originally from Ogden,

1:18:41

and she was probably the reason why he came

1:18:43

to Utah in the first place, because

1:18:46

she had roots there, and eventually

1:18:48

they planned on settling down

1:18:51

there

1:18:51

if they ever got married. But,

1:18:54

you know, he was not a good person, so in

1:18:57

addition to everything else bad that he did, he also

1:18:59

cheated on her quite a bit.

1:19:00

In June of 1975, just

1:19:03

a few weeks before Nancy Baird disappeared,

1:19:05

Ted Bundy met a young school teacher named

1:19:08

Leslie Knudsen at a party in Salt Lake

1:19:10

City. Bundy and Leslie

1:19:12

started seeing one another. And they dated

1:19:15

until August. She

1:19:17

saw that he was arrested and

1:19:20

didn't want anything more to do with him.

1:19:21

Leslie spoke to investigators back in 1975,

1:19:25

but she was never called as a witness in court

1:19:27

and has kept a very low profile all

1:19:29

the years since.

1:19:31

Her story is not well known, even

1:19:33

among Ted Bundy experts. But

1:19:35

I was able to find her phone number, and

1:19:37

an associate of mine called

1:19:40

her, and this was back

1:19:42

in 2019.

1:19:43

And it took a little while for her to

1:19:46

warm up and agree to speak at

1:19:48

all.

1:19:49

But she gave some, you know, some kind

1:19:51

of overall arching details

1:19:53

about her time that she spent with him. And

1:19:56

she mentioned that he had visited

1:19:58

her family in And she introduced

1:20:00

him to her entire family at a family

1:20:03

reunion on the 4th of July, 1975.

1:20:07

And that struck me immediately

1:20:09

because Nancy Baird

1:20:11

disappeared for the July 1975. And

1:20:16

if Leslie Knudsen

1:20:18

was accurate in her recall,

1:20:20

then Ted probably could not

1:20:23

have done that

1:20:24

if he was with her

1:20:25

and being introduced to her entire family

1:20:27

at their July 4th family reunion.

1:20:30

But it doesn't seem like anyone else has ever put those

1:20:33

together that he was with her on

1:20:35

the day that this crime occurred.

1:20:38

I've listened to a recording of this interview

1:20:40

with Leslie Knudsen. There are legal

1:20:43

and ethical considerations that prevent

1:20:45

me from sharing the audio with you. But

1:20:48

I can tell you what Leslie said.

1:20:50

She and Bundy had, quote, gone

1:20:52

to the family ranch on the 4th of July.

1:20:55

Leslie didn't say where the ranch

1:20:57

was, and she has not responded to

1:21:00

multiple messages I have left for her. But

1:21:02

I did some genealogy research and can tell

1:21:04

you

1:21:05

Leslie's maternal grandfather was a prominent

1:21:08

sheep rancher in an area of Utah

1:21:10

called the Uintah Basin.

1:21:12

When Leslie's mother died, the

1:21:15

obituary described how she had spent, quote,

1:21:18

many summers in the Fruitland, Utah

1:21:20

area on the family ranch.

1:21:23

And is in the Uintah

1:21:25

Basin.

1:21:26

And this is likely

1:21:28

where Leslie Knudsen took

1:21:31

Ted Bundy

1:21:32

on the day Nancy Baird disappeared.

1:21:35

And so it would be pretty difficult for him to have

1:21:38

done both things on that day, because

1:21:40

it would have been quite a drive. More

1:21:42

than 100 miles.

1:21:45

Quite the drive indeed. But

1:21:47

once investigators in the Nancy Baird

1:21:49

case honed in on Ted Bundy as

1:21:51

a suspect, all efforts

1:21:54

involving other persons of interest came

1:21:56

to a halt. people

1:22:00

went through that gas station in that

1:22:03

tiny frame of time within like 15 minutes

1:22:07

and nobody saw her leave.

1:22:11

My look into the Nancy Perry Baird

1:22:13

case came about because a jailhouse informant

1:22:16

once told the FBI Carrie Hartman

1:22:19

had known Nancy.

1:22:20

I haven't seen any sign that tip

1:22:23

was ever shared, investigated,

1:22:25

or corroborated. What

1:22:27

I've learned is there are other

1:22:30

more likely leads still left unexplored.

1:22:33

But after nearly 50 years so

1:22:35

many people important to solving this puzzle

1:22:38

are gone and former East

1:22:40

Layton officer Tom Jackson told me his

1:22:43

health is on the decline. One

1:22:45

of the first people I want to see other than my

1:22:47

parents when I get the other side is Nancy

1:22:50

because

1:22:50

she has bugged me for so

1:22:52

long. What could I have done to

1:22:55

been there for her? Because she's

1:22:57

that she was not the type to

1:23:00

just bugged out and said you know I'm tired

1:23:02

of the world. She was not

1:23:04

the type. This is a common

1:23:07

refrain we hear in so many cases

1:23:09

of missing women and to be honest it's

1:23:11

getting under my skin.

1:23:13

Because who is the type? Sure

1:23:16

people do run away but in this

1:23:18

podcast we have repeatedly heard how

1:23:21

more sinister circumstances often

1:23:24

surround the disappearances of women.

1:23:26

It happened with Sherri Warren. Her

1:23:29

disappearance 10 years after Nancy

1:23:31

Baird's bore many similarities.

1:23:34

Both were young mothers just out of

1:23:36

unhappy marriages.

1:23:38

Both were last seen at work. Neither

1:23:41

just walked away. But

1:23:44

in both cases speculation

1:23:46

about serial killers distracted investigators

1:23:49

drawing attention away from more

1:23:52

probable suspects. And

1:23:54

boy whoever did it he's

1:23:56

another Bundy.

1:23:58

Against the backdrop of

1:23:59

turnover and jurisdictional dysfunction

1:24:02

we've explored, it's easy to understand

1:24:05

how Ted Bundy filled a vacuum.

1:24:08

His entrance to the scene took pressure

1:24:11

off East Layton police. Nancy

1:24:13

Baird's friends and relatives were placated

1:24:16

by the belief Bundy did it, even

1:24:19

though no proof ever emerged

1:24:21

to support that. But there are

1:24:24

too many unexplored avenues of investigation

1:24:26

for me to accept that conclusion.

1:24:29

Like the man who stalked, molested,

1:24:32

and threatened Nancy a couple of nights before

1:24:34

she disappeared, or the two hippie

1:24:36

type guys chatting with her at the Fina

1:24:38

station moments before she vanished, or

1:24:42

even an East Layton police

1:24:44

officer with a troubled past.

1:24:47

Until these other leads are closed,

1:24:49

how can anyone accept taking the

1:24:53

convenient alternative?

1:25:16

If

1:25:18

you've experienced abuse or sexual violence,

1:25:20

you're not alone. There are trained experts

1:25:28

ready

1:25:34

to listen and help. In the United

1:25:36

States, survivors of rape and sexual

1:25:39

assault can connect to free resources

1:25:41

through the Rape Abuse and Incest National

1:25:44

Network at rainn.org.

1:25:47

If you or someone you know is experiencing

1:25:49

domestic abuse in any form, you

1:25:52

can reach the National Domestic Violence Hotline

1:25:54

at thehotline.org. Cold

1:25:58

is a production of KSL podcasts.

1:25:59

and Wondery in association with

1:26:02

Workhouse Media. Cold is

1:26:04

researched, written, and hosted by me, Dave

1:26:06

Cauley. Audio production and sound

1:26:08

design by Ben Kiebrick and Aaron Mason.

1:26:11

Mixing and mastering

1:26:12

by Ben Kiebrick.

1:26:14

Michael Bonmiller composed our main theme

1:26:17

with additional music this season by Alison

1:26:19

Layton-Brown. Additional voices

1:26:21

in this episode provided by

1:26:23

Aaron Mason.

1:26:25

My personal thanks to our editorial team,

1:26:27

Amy Donaldson, Andrea Smarten, Ryan

1:26:30

Meeks, Becky Bruce, Kira Faramond,

1:26:32

Kellyanne Halverson, Josh Tilton, and

1:26:35

Felix Benow. For Amazon

1:26:37

Music and Wondery, Managing Producer

1:26:39

Candice Manriquez-Ren, Producer

1:26:42

Claire Chambers, Senior Producer Lizzie

1:26:44

Bassett, and Executive Producer

1:26:46

Morgan Jones. Special thanks

1:26:48

to Cale Bittner and Alison Vermeulen.

1:26:52

With Workhouse Media Executive Producers Paul

1:26:54

Anderson and Nick Penella.

1:26:55

And for KSL

1:26:57

Podcasts, Executive Producer

1:26:59

Cheryl Worsley.