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0:45

Okay,

0:45

so

0:45

here

0:45

we

0:45

are

0:45

on

0:45

the

0:45

precipice

0:45

of

0:45

a

0:45

new

0:45

year,

0:45

but

0:45

before

0:45

we

0:45

jump

0:45

into

0:45

it,

0:45

we

0:45

wanted

0:45

to,

0:55

I look back on all the stories and updates.

0:58

Radiolab has brought you This

1:00

year, Harry Pace. Why don't we have like three movies about this dude rep miacin.

1:04

They just wanted to thank him for keeping their kids alive.

1:08

Placenta. When you're pregnant, you grow an entirely new organ breath, red herring, that conversation with Annie and Lulu about farts.

1:20

Are you not One of my favorite moments in podcasting of all time?

1:23

So many grades in a way, putting red herring next to breath.

1:26

It's like, breath comes out one way the other way.

1:29

You know what I mean? Anyway.

1:31

So why are we looking back?

1:33

Well, it's that time of year, right? This is the moment when like you take stock of things that you care about and you want to financially support, but we've got a new way for you to do that.

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It's called the lab And to be a part of the lab, there are three tiers.

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So depending on how generous you're feeling or, or how much of a peak you want to get behind the scenes, you get a lot of ex Great

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stuff. We got some magnets, we got some embroidered, retro patches.

1:59

We got tote bags, and instead of ads, you'll get bonus content and you'll get extra interviews or invitations to members only You

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get a live stream following Jada boom run 24 hours a day, seven days a week dwell for a second on the no ads thing I have to say, this is like revolutionary.

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Oh, I just like I breathe in more deeply, even just thinking about it.

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The story just goes, So

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to take a look, see if you want to join you just head on over to radiolab.org/join.

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If

2:24

you

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do

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end

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up

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supporting

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us,

2:24

we

2:24

really

2:24

appreciate

2:24

it

2:24

so

2:24

much

2:24

and

2:31

Have a happy new year.

2:31

Oh,

2:35

wait. You're listening to radio lab radio, w N Y S Dun

2:53

dun dun dun dun dun.

3:02

I feel like I'm in an elevator or something.

3:05

Hi, this is Lulu.

3:06

And

3:06

this

3:06

is

3:06

the

3:06

last

3:06

episode

3:06

of

3:06

Radiolab

3:06

for

3:06

the

3:06

year

3:06

of

3:12

2021.

3:14

And it's been a, wow, it's been a year like lucid.

3:19

You remember last year at this time, So

3:22

much burgeoning hope Pfizer

3:27

and BioNTech has shown early promising Bouncing

3:30

it's vaccine Johnson and Johnson's vaccine is being called new weapon.

3:34

Tonight. This time it's just one shot.

3:36

It was vaccine after vaccine, after vaccine AstraZeneca COVID,

3:42

Anything was possible. We're coming up needles.

3:44

We're going in vaccinated. People do not carry the virus.

3:48

Don't get sick. There was this moment of excitement.

3:52

Like we can lick this thing Unless something very odd happens.

3:55

I would say that it is pretty much over.

4:04

And then we did it and now it's all solved and everything's great.

4:06

It's all over. Terrific.

4:08

And we're not quite, I

4:10

know a pandemic just won't leave up, Right?

4:13

I mean, some of it was not our fault.

4:15

I mean, some of it was our fault as a human species.

4:18

Some of it was not our fault, but regardless as we've been looking back on this year, the second one in a row that is felt like it hurt.

4:27

Like it started with so much promise and we're ending with a whimper.

4:30

We realized that, you know, this year has been a flop.

4:34

It's been a flop of a year.

4:37

Yeah. So here at Radiolab, as this crappy year comes to a close, we decided to pay homage to the flop itself.

4:49

That's

4:49

very

4:52

common. And yet very seldom celebrated human experience of flopping.

5:00

So without further ado, we bring you Not

5:07

just one, not just two but six Flops

5:10

flops that are in the ocean Spots

5:13

that are on basketball courts got hit in the Face.

5:16

That's a sell Job flops that are on stage in front of millions of people, Flops

5:21

in the white house, gusting discipline, but not in the way you think six flops of various shapes forms, velocities, hoping that as we flop our way to the end of the year, it might be nice to flop with others.

5:35

And it might give us a little insight into what's on the other side of a flop.

5:49

So who has our first flop?

5:51

I have it to me.

5:54

Hello? Hello, My

5:56

name .

5:57

Thank

6:00

you. Get what you got. Where are you taking us?

6:02

We are going back to the early two thousands to this show.

6:07

American

6:07

idol,

6:07

of

6:07

course,

6:07

which

6:07

was

6:07

one

6:07

of

6:07

my

6:07

favorite

6:07

shows

6:07

growing

6:13

up. And you know, you, you probably know how it's set up.

6:16

It's pretty simple contestants go in front of these three judges, sing a song.

6:20

Sometimes they're great.

6:22

Sometimes they're really not.

6:24

And the performance that I remember most from the show, it's actually one of these flop auditions.

6:31

And that's the one I'm going to tell you about.

6:34

Okay. So this flop happened in September of 2003.

6:39

Hi, how you doing? Oh, great.

6:40

Thank you. Great to see you guys.

6:45

Skinny Chinese guy wearing black pants and this blue short sleeve shirt walks on stage.

6:52

I'm here to, to sing to America Answers

6:55

a few questions from the judges. What Are

6:57

you going to say? I would like to sing Ricky Martin.

6:59

She banks all enjoy it.

7:01

Alright, let's go.

7:03

Alright. And start singing. Talk

7:04

to me, Tammy, your name, you blow me off.

7:08

Like it's all the same.

7:10

You let in fierce and ticking the way, like if yeah, they bad Bouncing

7:17

around in this like kind of awkward way.

7:20

You can tell he's trying to dance, but it's not really working.

7:27

Oh baby. When she moves, she moves.

7:30

I go crazy because she lose like, And

7:35

eventually the judge has cut him off.

7:38

William. It's one Of actually the worst auditions we've had this year.

7:41

I already gave my best and I have no regrets at all.

7:46

And for some reason, this flop by this guy, William hung more than any other flop in maybe the history of the whole show.

7:53

It went viral.

7:56

Let me just say I have no professional training.

8:03

There's an SNL sketch about it.

8:04

People

8:04

made

8:04

parodies

8:04

making

8:04

fun

8:04

of

8:04

his

8:14

voice.

8:16

He's from Singapore, His

8:19

accent, even his teeth, Some

8:23

carrots and tomatoes.

8:32

What did you think about all this when you saw it happening?

8:35

I mean, I was just a kid.

8:37

I probably just laughed with everyone else, but you know, watching it now, it really just makes me sad.

8:43

What is sad about it?

8:45

I mean, I, I think why he was so laughed at was because he sort of fit this like nerdy, Asian stereotype.

8:52

And like I grew in this place that was filled with people who are Asian American and you know, just like a very immigrant community and as an immigrant watching TV and like, especially a show like American idol, it's sort of this way to answer this question of like, how am I supposed to be here?

9:11

Like, what is like, what's like, what's, what's good girl.

9:15

And, and American idol is the cleanest version of that because you literally get someone just like going and being themselves.

9:22

And then three people being like, that was good.

9:25

I liked this. I like what you're wearing.

9:27

I like how you talk. I hate exactly.

9:30

It's so funny because it's like an American idol.

9:33

It's like your American Paragon of what it is to be an American.

9:37

Right, right.

9:38

And you know, William hung didn't fit the part.

9:42

Right. He didn't fit.

9:43

And you know, I thought when this whole thing happened, you know, when America essentially told him William hung, you don't belong.

9:51

I thought he'd just like disappear.

9:54

But he sort of did the opposite of that, which was so strange to me.

10:09

Like

10:09

he

10:09

goes

10:09

on

10:09

all

10:09

these

10:09

big

10:09

talk

10:09

shows

10:09

and

10:14

performs. She bangs in malls, concerts, sports games.

10:20

He

10:20

does

10:20

a

10:20

halftime

10:20

show

10:20

at

10:20

a

10:20

golden

10:20

state

10:20

warriors

10:20

game,

10:20

a

10:20

concert

10:20

at

10:20

the

10:20

rose

10:20

bowl

10:20

with

10:20

like

10:20

Janet

10:20

Jackson

10:20

and

10:20

Bruin

10:29

five.

10:29

It's

10:29

like,

10:29

he's

10:29

reliving

10:29

the

10:29

nightmare

10:29

of

10:29

that

10:29

American

10:29

idol

10:29

audition

10:29

over

10:29

and

10:29

over

10:29

and

10:29

over

10:38

again. Yeah. And I just like, I never would've done that.

10:42

You know, I was the kind of kid who, if I got one answer wrong in class, I wouldn't want to go back the next day.

10:48

And this guy was like going back to school, jumping on the desk and just like shouting the wrong answer again.

10:56

And again, and again, it's like he's immune to being humiliated.

11:00

Yeah. I've always wondered.

11:02

Like how, how did he manage to respond this way?

11:07

So William, how's it going?

11:11

Good. I called him up just a moment.

11:13

Let me, let me fix my background.

11:14

Yeah, sure.

11:15

He's

11:15

39

11:15

years

11:15

old

11:15

now

11:15

lives

11:15

in

11:15

Jacksonville,

11:15

Florida

11:15

with

11:15

a

11:15

friend

11:15

after

11:15

the

11:15

whole

11:15

American

11:15

idol

11:24

thing. He tried to become a high school teacher, but that didn't quite work out.

11:28

And now he's a professional poker player.

11:31

Did you just make your bed?

11:33

Yeah.

11:33

I

11:33

asked

11:33

him

11:33

how

11:33

he

11:33

ended

11:33

up

11:33

auditioning

11:33

for

11:33

American

11:33

idol

11:33

and

11:33

he

11:33

said,

11:33

it's

11:33

not

11:33

like

11:33

he

11:33

grew

11:33

up

11:33

wanting

11:33

to

11:33

be

11:33

a

11:42

performer. He moved to the U S from Hong Kong when he was 10 and had a really hard time fitting in.

11:48

You could say that I'm more of a loner.

11:50

My best friends were my teachers.

11:52

He Got Bullied in middle School

11:55

problem. They just because I'm Chinese or Asian, because I was the only Asian in my class and College

12:01

wasn't much easier. I didn't Know how to make friends so socially, But

12:08

then one day he's walking into his dorm and this poster catches his eye.

12:14

A picture of a guy with a micro-foam, the red curtains behind it.

12:20

This poster for this talent show that has dorms holding.

12:22

And he decides on a whim to sign Himself

12:25

up. It's like a new opportunity. He used to love doing karaoke with his parents.

12:29

The way I saw it was I had nothing to lose.

12:31

He Chooses Ricky Martins. She bangs Just

12:34

try to mimic Ricky Martin's dance moves practices.

12:36

So like she bags, she banks.

12:40

And when he gets on stage, I see people were dancing with me.

12:43

They were so excited.

12:44

And then at the end, people were giving me loud.

12:48

Cheers and applause.

12:50

Yay. Woo.

12:53

And he ended up actually winning the whole show.

12:54

Whoa. I was like, what? Really?

12:58

Yeah. He wins a DVD player.

13:00

Nice. So it does all that.

13:02

It's one of those dice that you feel like you were on top of the world A

13:07

week. He's he's watching Fox news, which he watches every night and he sees an advertisement for auditions for American.

13:14

I was like, wow. Maybe there's an opportunity there.

13:18

You know, he's still like riding off the high of winning this, this school talent show I

13:22

could win big. Right. Nobody knows.

13:23

And he's Like, you know what? This is the next step.

13:26

I'm going to sign myself up for the next step.

13:28

And

13:28

you

13:28

vote

13:28

saw

13:28

how

13:28

this

13:28

went

13:35

Though. It was so weird and funny, like Randy would hold this.

13:39

Why shit, It's interesting to hear William or count what happened.

13:42

And Then Simon was like, frowning like this.

13:44

It wasn't like crossing his arms.

13:45

He seems no.

13:47

Well death as a price of the century, Almost

13:51

amused.

13:53

I know I didn't do well on the audition.

13:55

You know, I was nervous.

13:57

My movements were very jerky.

13:59

If you use the standards saying good, it wasn't good, but I could live with it.

14:04

It's okay.

14:07

Tell me more about your emotions of that day.

14:09

We talked about all of it. You know, the jokes people made about him and he feel humiliated.

14:12

The big performances of she banks.

14:15

I was just excited. And when I asked him about people making fun of him, I cut It

14:19

just like one ear in one ear out.

14:23

But that doesn't hurt, hurt you. That doesn't hurt your feelings.

14:27

No, they want to laugh at me. That's fine because they, they enjoy watching or listening to songs like my, to my, you know, to my style of she bags, whatever.

14:42

Hmm. But I wonder if you could talk about even one specific moment that either was painful or humiliating or like angering to you.

14:51

I really don't have that syndrome.

14:53

And that's a good, that's a good thing.

14:56

There were some interesting Experiences

14:59

for sure. But it wasn't like anger.

15:01

How I say it.

15:03

It's not so impactful that I had to think about every day.

15:06

Hmm. Yeah.

15:09

Yeah. It's just amazing. Cause like humiliation is a really hard feeling for most people and it definitely is for me and I, you know, I fear it a lot and you know, that is one of the reasons I want to talk to you is because it seems like you're sort of impervious to it or that you're able to perform some type of alchemy.

15:26

I was asking him in all these different ways and I was really starting to feel like he was somehow immune until through all of this.

15:38

Did you, did you ever cry?

15:39

I asked him this. No, not well.

15:44

Nope. Not about not for American idol.

15:46

No. Hm.

15:47

What's something that has made you cry.

15:52

Ooh,

15:52

very

15:57

hard. Very hard where there were a few moments that made me cry.

16:01

I remember w what, one day I spent a lot of time after teaching preparing the next lesson.

16:09

This was After the idol stuff, settled down.

16:12

He was training to become a teacher. The

16:14

next day I was like, okay, this things will go, well, I was optimistic.

16:17

But then you let the kids just decided not to follow me.

16:21

You know, they saw me more like a funny entertainer, a celebrity.

16:26

They didn't see me as their teacher.

16:29

And then my master teacher called me out.

16:31

And, and, and step aside, like I'm taking over the dah dah dah, right?

16:37

It wasn't a, it wasn't a good scene. It was, it was an embarrassing scene to me.

16:40

So yeah.

16:42

And then he told me he would fail me if I don't improve.

16:45

I cried after I got home because that really hurts.

16:50

That's that's, that's, that's not a fun thing to hear.

16:55

Yeah. It felt real, you know, that's like, oh my gosh, I did all this.

17:00

And you say, this is not good enough. Okay.

17:02

I

17:02

felt,

17:02

I,

17:02

I

17:02

felt

17:02

that

17:02

was

17:02

big,

17:02

a

17:02

bigger

17:02

embarrassment

17:02

compared

17:02

to

17:02

my

17:02

American

17:02

idol

17:09

flop. Why did that feel like a bigger flap to you?

17:14

Because, because I, I, because I worked so hard to get to where I was, I was ready to graduate.

17:22

I was I'd seriously considered taking on the high school teaching position after I was done.

17:29

But after that experience, that changed my mind.

17:32

It's like, okay, I don't want to go to this ever again.

17:37

Yeah. I mean, I, I guess that makes sense that that feels more like a flop, because I guess with a flop, you need to have a ton of expectation and hope and you know, you have to care a lot.

17:50

And then you have that crushed with like a huge disappointment, like a total failure.

17:55

And I guess this experience you had as a teacher does fit that definition way better.

18:02

Yeah, I agree.

18:05

But the thing is like, for me, there's like one more component to the definition, which is like the audience, like the, the group of people who, who are watching you fail.

18:16

Yeah. Yeah. And to me, like that's almost everything.

18:19

Like, it would matter so much to me that American idol was in front of millions of people, but you don't seem to weight that component very much.

18:30

And I just like, w w why do you think that is Big?

18:35

Well, like I mentioned, for, for my American idol audition it, I just focus on having fun, enjoying the moment.

18:43

And that's it.

18:47

Yeah. But, well, I guess another way to ask this, like it, like, so the story we're making right now together, it's actually like the first ever story where my voice will be like a big part of it.

19:00

You

19:00

know,

19:00

millions

19:00

of

19:00

people

19:00

will

19:00

be

19:00

listening

19:00

to

19:06

this. And that's really scary to me.

19:09

Like, I, you know, I guess I'm, I'm asking you all of this from a place kind of, of wanting to learn from you.

19:17

How do you not let the fear of judgment from all those people and really for you not, I mean, not just the fear of it, but like the actual judgment.

19:26

How do you not let that totally crush you?

19:31

Oh, I like, I like this one. So, so I would say I choose to embrace my identity.

19:39

I choose to embrace my past my present my future.

19:44

It's a choice.

19:46

Like I told him, I feel like I'm not the norm of whatever, whatever that means.

19:54

Like back then, I was not the norm now I'm still not the norm.

19:58

So, and that's okay.

20:03

Did you find that helpful?

20:04

I mean, kind of, I don't know I'm going to, I think what I realized is that what he did to this question and kind of all of my questions is he sort of just rejects them.

20:21

Yeah. And I think it's because these questions kind of assume that what the judges or the audience, like the people out there, you know, America, they assume that what America thinks matters.

20:34

And

20:34

I

20:34

don't

20:37

know. I just don't think that that's how he operates.

20:40

I fame. I do time after time, I've done my sentence.

20:51

And I feel like every time I listened to one of his tracks And

20:55

bad mistakes, He's

20:57

actually made some albums, which kind of good listening to a lot.

21:00

It sort of reminds me that William hung is a way to be in this world.

21:16

Producer, Sindu Nana, some Gundam.

21:18

When we come back way more flops, aquatic, flops, Olympic flops, NBA flops, more flops, a lot more flops.

21:58

Hey, this is Jad. Radiolab is supported by capital one, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit is another reason.

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23:07

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flap comes to us from editors, Soren Wheeler and Alex Neeson.

23:50

Yeah, I'm here. Did you have like a hot start that you had in your head or should I just kind of get us kicked off?

23:55

I mean, I have some stuff that I want lots of fun, Lulu to watch, but you can go, but go.

24:00

Let's go. Okay. Yeah. So, so I guess I'd say that this one is about the flop as a lie told through the physical movement of bodies on the basketball court.

24:18

Okay. Do you guys even know what a flop is in basketball flop?

24:24

So you want a school I'm Alex, Let's

24:26

just like show you what we're even talking about.

24:30

So this is a clip of Marcus smart guard for the Boston Celtics.

24:34

He comes to the basket for a rebound and oh man, that was extreme.

24:42

He seems to like bounce off the Atlanta player.

24:46

Does this flailing pero wet out of bounds?

24:50

Yeah. It's like, he's he decided to do high jump in the middle of a game or something.

24:55

Yeah. So that's a flop. It's when there wasn't a foul or sometimes any contact at all, but the player falls and flails dramatically to try and get the ref to think there was a foul.

25:07

Yeah. It's like a putting on a show like, oh, he got, you know, like, oh my God, he pushed me over.

25:11

And I feel like I know of this in soccer, but I didn't know that it was a thing.

25:15

It's a thing for new basketball too, for sure.

25:17

You'd always had, Yeah, but right around 2012 or so look at our National

25:23

television, It seemed to be sweeping the NBA, like some kind of plate.

25:29

How are you kidding me? We got flopping as a major issue.

25:31

And we're going to the Big board at that time, The flops were just getting like, especially flagrant and people were tired of seeing that in part, because it looks stupid, but also just ruins the game because people thought it was bad for the game that it's disgusting, cheating, Punish.

25:56

You would like to punish the Flaw

25:57

and it needed to be stopped.

25:59

I would like to eliminate it from the games game, but then along came a guy named Syria.

26:07

Are you really that clueless?

26:08

Mark Cuban? What the hell is that you don't ever use fast?

26:12

We don't ever use substance. The guy from shark tank and he's desperate to put an end to the madness.

26:18

And he also happens to be a billionaire and owns the Dallas Mavericks.

26:21

Yes. Yeah. Well, I have to say in my head, I imagined like a limo rolling up on your lab.

26:27

No, mark Cuban just emailed me.

26:29

That's how it started. So this is Peter weigh-in.

26:31

He's a biomechanics researcher at Southern Methodist university.

26:36

So you just opened your email one day and it was just like mark Cuban One

26:40

evening. I was like, oh, and I showed it to my wife.

26:42

She think This is really hard.

26:44

And she said, yeah, I think it is.

26:47

You should probably answer that. And

26:48

basically he says, look, this flopping stuff, it's getting out of control.

26:52

He was concerned about the integrity of the game.

26:54

You know, we got all these big, huge guys that are sort of falling over all the time and flailing.

26:58

And so our I'm going to throw you a bunch of money and you are going to prove scientifically that these guys are flopping.

27:07

So sadly, since I am a shark tank fan, I've never met a Mark

27:11

Cuban. That's Ken Clark. He was at the time he was a graduate student in Peter's lab.

27:15

And so he and Peter got together and thought about, and they're like, yeah, All

27:18

right, this will be fun. We have the equipment, we have the tools.

27:20

So let's, let's do it. Absolutely.

27:21

All right. So, so what'd you do We

27:24

crashed into each other over and over and over again, we Played

27:28

human. Yeah, exactly. The idea was if they could figure out what a normal, non floppy collision looked like, well, then they could spot when something fishy was happening.

27:35

So We set up big crash pads and in the lab, they bring People

27:39

in. They put like the little sensor things on them.

27:41

We have a Motion capture System,

27:44

they got the cameras and they just have people run into each other.

27:47

We'll do that. Max, max, max In

27:50

a whole variety of ways, Subjects

27:52

Of different sizes go, little guy runs into a big guy with Different

27:55

incoming Velocities. You try really fast.

27:57

Now you go really slow or you just push on Today.

28:00

Oh, we're just putting on some video game suits and running into each other the whole day.

28:05

Yeah. They even built a metal and plastic person.

28:08

They called it Gus. Gus Was,

28:10

he was just a galvanized structure with a piece of plywood in the middle to like knock him over.

28:15

I wanted to put a San Antonio spurs Jersey on Gus, but the, but the members of the crews said, no, that's pushing it too far.

28:26

So they do all these tests and here's what they come up with guys falling on their butts all the time.

28:30

That's not actually a reliable sign of a flop at all.

28:33

If a player has her feet planted and their weight on their heels or whatever, it doesn't take much force to knock them over.

28:38

Not much. It's not much at all. If they don't move their feet, bam.

28:41

Over they go.

28:43

Absolutely. Huh. So that's going to actually happen a lot in the, in the natural course of a game, but the thing you need to watch according to Peter and Ken is the arm, all of The

28:53

excessive, upper Body,

28:55

most histrionics.

28:57

Yeah. The history of The natural reaction when you're hit and falling backwards is for you to take your arms and reach backwards to brace for impact.

29:05

And so if a player is flailing with their arms above their head or Nine

29:10

times out of 10, that's probably a flop they're putting on a show.

29:14

The problem is even that doesn't really help much because a guy could actually get fouled and sort of flail his arms just to like draw attention to it.

29:22

Right. So, so they write this whole report up.

29:24

They even made like a video and they give it back to mark Cuban.

29:27

And this was not what mark Cuban wanted to hear Hoping

29:31

for more, something more concrete and actionable to sort of stamp out this, this epidemic of faking.

29:37

But I, you know, we can't change the science.

29:39

So the whole Experiment

29:41

was itself.

29:44

Well, I mean, yeah, maybe a little bit.

29:47

But the interesting thing was that Peter and Ken told us that a scientific hard science spot to flop kind of thing actually might be possible in the, not too distant future Fetched,

30:01

to think that we could have instantaneous velocity on all 10 players on a basketball court at any given time, All

30:07

you would need is just like a tiny little bit of math, You

30:11

know, mass and velocity, you know, instantaneous momentum, you go off some basic assumptions that momentum in a collision is going to be a concern.

30:20

Then you just have computers that are sort of tracking and crunching all those numbers based on the sizes and the velocities incoming and outgoing.

30:26

And if there's More momentum coming out of that, then going In,

30:29

you just send a little signal down to the ref right there on the court, You

30:33

know, bell goes off and arrest earpiece and says, Hey, that that was a flop.

30:38

And just like, eh, that was fake.

30:40

Like Then

30:42

they just put it on the big screen, right? Yeah.

30:45

I got a family feud when you get it wrong. To

30:53

think that someone like mark Cuban would spend his infinite amount of dollars to find out the core cause of flopping instead of why his team can't win a championship, again seems to be a bit of a waste of money.

31:03

Don't you think?

31:07

Okay. So after talking to Peter and Ken about what they did, we were kind of letting ourselves imagine at least in theory of game, without flops or the smart tube.

31:16

And so we decided to put this idea in front of my friend, Tyler Tynes, he's a sports writer at GQ.

31:22

And I was like, Tyler, like, what do you think?

31:25

I don't think anyone in this country, if they have any sense about themselves would look at you in your face, sit down and tell you they enjoy flopping.

31:31

But flopping as part of the game is always been part of the game is Kind

31:36

of squishy on this. Well, I think the thing in where I come from is that flopping by nature is sucker shit.

31:40

It is naturally to test.

31:43

So he hates flops, but at the same time, part of the beauty of the game for him is just letting players play it.

31:51

However they're going to play it.

31:53

The issue actually isn't with the players. The issue is with the league that incentivizes this type of entertainment.

31:57

So Trey younger, Trayvon green or Marcus smart, flails a bit differently than maybe some of our heroes of old.

32:04

The reality here is that it makes money when you flop, the teams are better.

32:10

If you flop and you can get a three point shot, Incentivized

32:12

sports in America to be like, win, win, win, win, win by any means necessary.

32:16

But flopping is by any means necessary Is

32:20

the core of this actually the players.

32:23

Well, but if, if you could decide whether the system is going to incentivize a flop or not, you could, you could change the system.

32:28

So it doesn't incentivize it. My I'm, I'm just kinda curious, like what would you rather see a game with?

32:36

No flopping? No.

32:37

And actually heard the same thing.

32:39

No, It just doesn't, it doesn't feel right to me.

32:42

You know, having grown up playing Basketball

32:44

from both Peter Wayne and Ken Clark.

32:46

No, I don't think so. Not, not in my mind.

32:49

I don't, I don't, I don't like adding police officers to the sports that I watch.

32:54

You know what I mean? Like we have changed how we talk about basketball and flopping in the policing of flopping is a part of that.

33:02

Where the way like how you identify who a basketball fan is now has changed.

33:08

Who enjoys basketball, who runs these teams, who now are the presidents of these front offices.

33:13

These are white kids who wanted to be Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson.

33:16

It never could. And now they have the cultural cache and the power to say what is important within our athletics.

33:23

And it is how we get to something as serious.

33:26

And non-serious as flopping where it should be just a part of the art form.

33:30

It should just be fun. But instead it's become policed.

33:33

Now you're a bad player.

33:35

If you flop now, you don't care about the art of basketball.

33:38

If you flop now, even for someone like me, I'm calling these people out, they name cause they flop, right?

33:43

It's it's not the trueness of how we believe basketball is supposed to be played.

33:47

And so to me it leaves the issue.

33:49

Is that why don't you just care if these boys is playing basketball or not?

33:54

I hear you.

33:55

It's

33:59

interesting. Because when I came into, when we started, when we started working on this story, my feeling about flopping was pretty much centered around James harden, notorious, flopper, and he would look so smug about it and it would just grind my gears and I would just be so incensed by it.

34:17

So when we started working on this, it was really a moment for me to sit and think about like what kind of basketball game I actually want.

34:25

And so I arrive at this place where I'm like, flopping just feels like it's just part of the theater and the drama of like what makes watching a game.

34:35

So exhilarating Watching

34:37

James harden, figure out how to be an insurance salesman with these blocks.

34:44

It was kind of magical because you knew he was going into the game and had no care about the rules of the game and that level of anarchy, that level of just self-assuredness and that you were going to break the game in some respects.

35:00

That was cool.

35:01

And so my thing is that I don't care if you flop is a part of how you are going to get over in this game.

35:08

I ain't going to say our spec thing.

35:11

Now He's

35:16

grabbing his head, hit his head, throw it into his feet, his legs forward and loses his balance.

35:24

That was a flagrant flop.

35:26

Oh, you got to file. Are you kidding me?

35:28

He went over.

35:41

Hello? Hello.

35:41

Everybody's

35:44

here. Next producer, Matt Kielty and contributing editor had the Radke.

35:50

I have, I actually feel like this is going to be close to Lulu's heart.

35:52

I've been thinking about Luke. Really?

35:54

It's about a ragtag group of women making their way in the world today.

36:00

So

36:00

we're

36:00

going

36:00

to

36:00

take

36:00

you

36:00

back

36:00

to

36:00

2001

36:00

to

36:09

A group of ragtag young women, Ragtag

36:11

Kate, Kate Darmody Burke.

36:14

How do you want me To

36:16

Ashley? I'll go. Ashley. Girsich Murphy.

36:18

I'm Shelby co-pack and Shelby.

36:20

Oh gosh, I screwed that up.

36:23

So Kate, Ashley, Shelby, And all three of them are lacrosse players.

36:26

Okay. So lacrosse like sticks with little nuts.

36:29

You throw a ball around.

36:32

Okay. So all of them had finished high school and they all want to play lacrosse in college, but you know, they weren't gonna play at like lacrosse nation, university of Virginia or Maryland university of Maryland national Champion.

36:48

These very storied programs.

36:49

They weren't getting recruited by these top schools.

36:52

I think they kind of figured they would just like play at some small school, stay somewhere in your home.

36:57

Well, so insert Kelly, Amanti, Hiller.

36:59

You could call the Mia Hamm of women's Lacrosse.

37:02

Two time player of the year National

37:04

champion at Maryland.

37:05

She came into one of my soccer games.

37:08

He was going around the east coast trying to recruit women to come play for her at Northwestern university.

37:13

But the Was

37:14

Northwestern didn't even actually have a team.

37:18

Yeah, because Northwestern it's in the heart of the Midwest, just outside of Chicago.

37:22

And back then lacrosse was not a Midwest sport.

37:26

It was an east coast Mid-Atlantic thing.

37:30

We had hired this like first time head coach to basically build a program from scratch.

37:34

She was like 26.

37:35

Oh like, But

37:38

when she went recruiting, she would ask these girls point blank.

37:41

Yeah. Do you want to be a national champion?

37:42

And we're sorta like, I mean, And

37:45

I remember giggling and laughing, but there was no smile on her face.

37:49

I thought this lady is crazy slash I love her.

37:53

So she managed to get a team together.

37:56

A lot of really intense, short east coast, ladies making their way to the Midwest.

38:03

She was Pulling people from everywhere.

38:05

She Got these twins who she found on the street, just jogging.

38:09

They wanted to play the cross. They thought lacrosse was a town in Wisconsin.

38:12

They don't Even have a practice Field

38:14

practice on the flight football field. But Early

38:16

on that I'm down. And she said to him, we Will

38:18

be national champions. And we need everybody to buy in.

38:20

You know, I say, jump, you say how high She

38:22

had us boxing and doing yoga and meditating.

38:25

They did these things called affirmation circles.

38:28

And we would go around and tell each other positive things about us.

38:32

You know? Oh, you're so fast, Jenny, your shot is so strong.

38:37

Ashley and Kate Told us we drank the Kool-Aid.

38:39

She told us we could do anything. And we've really just believed.

38:44

And so that year, this group of mostly freshmen hit the field and they lost a lot of games.

38:53

They go five and 10, five and 10, five wins, 10 lost, five wins, 10 it's pretty bad.

39:00

Their second year they go eight and eight, third year they go 15 and three, which means they made it to the playoffs, but they ultimately lost in the quarters to UVA.

39:11

I went To UVA, so we lack a bit go.

39:14

But then their senior year, they go undefeated and they actually make it to the national championship game where they have to play UVA again, Building

39:23

up a mighty ducks here. But then they get to the finals And

39:27

blow it quiet. Like, is that the motto?

39:29

No, no. They win.

39:31

They

39:31

went

39:31

and

39:31

they

39:31

won

39:31

the

39:35

championship. The bench clears.

39:36

They're

39:36

like

39:36

hugging,

39:36

crying,

39:36

jumping,

39:44

laughing. It was the most incredible, you know, I now have two children and that's pretty incredible, but truthfully the most incredible experience of my life.

39:55

And then I will never forget being in the locker room and Kelly talking about just how proud she was.

40:03

And then we get to go to the white house, Which

40:07

is where this story sort of flips 2005.

40:10

They go to DC, they get all dressed up and they go to the white house.

40:14

It smelled and felt distinguished.

40:16

You know, it's the, it's the white House.

40:18

They get to see LinkedIn's bedroom. They walk Around the rose garden and then they get ushered into this room where in the corner, There's

40:23

a stadium seating kind of bleachers.

40:25

So The whole team goes over and takes her place.

40:27

And then in walks, George W.

40:30

Bush, he's got on a suit and tie comes over, congratulates the team.

40:33

They give him a couple of lacrosse sticks.

40:35

And then Some photographer says, okay, everyone look up here.

40:39

3, 2, 1 step.

40:43

A few days later, Shelby gets a call on her cell phone, But

40:48

I didn't recognize the phone number.

40:49

And I picked it up and it happened to be some reporter.

40:53

I don't really recall from where.

40:55

And then she was asking me, you know, just different questions about winning a championship and going to the white house.

41:02

And then all of a sudden it took a turn because she said something of, did anyone say anything about your foot attire?

41:12

I said, excuse me.

41:15

And the reporter went on to say, well, in the white house photo, you were clearly wearing flip-flops And

41:24

that could be considered disrespectful or inappropriate.

41:26

And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm sorry.

41:30

I have to go.

41:31

And she's like, Oh

41:34

God, because she wasn't the only one who was wearing flip flops that day.

41:37

No, My

41:39

cell phone starts ringing at five in the morning.

41:43

It was a reporter asking her about her flip-flops she Says a day later For

41:47

Susan, the Chicago Tribune, then USA today, white house flip-flops flat NBC white house foot where fans flip-flop kerfuffle, ESPN, NPR, CBS, Kate,

41:56

and Shelby were on the today show don't wear Flip

41:59

flops to meet the president.

42:01

And there are mothers or mothers on the show, the coach, and then a shoe.

42:05

No, I would have chosen something that was a close town saying that we should have been wearing a full healed, closed toe shoe for Flip-flops

42:14

you would put white house on the don't list.

42:18

Oh, because of this photo where a few young women are wearing flip-flops can you show me the picture?

42:23

Yeah. Hang on. Or maybe just maybe Google or cross the white house or you search.

42:28

You'll see the picture, see the picture.

42:30

Totally innocuous, such an innocuous picture.

42:33

It's like such a generic photo of photo of the president holding two lacrosse sticks.

42:39

And then all of these women look at their feet.

42:42

Lots of, but it's just so nothing.

42:45

Oh, is it lots of, is it really nothing?

42:48

It seems. Have you considered As

42:51

humans, Matt and Heather, do you actually think it matters?

42:55

Really? What do you mean matters? In what sense?

42:57

Ah, well, w with Tila just being like, ah, who cares?

43:02

Like I don't, I don't think it matters.

43:04

Like, I don't think they should have been shamed for wearing flip flops at the white house, but I think, I think it very much matters that these things happen because it tells us something about us.

43:16

Yeah. And so to that point, we ended up calling up, oh, I like spec, oh, Alexis is this presidential historian, Alexis co Reporting

43:27

in the story and trying to answer lots of question.

43:29

Why does this matter?

43:31

We kept coming back to the scene of the crime, The

43:34

white house. If we just go back, let's go back to like the early, like the formation of the white house.

43:40

When Washington first took office, the white house was an idea that they would get.

43:45

So at first, when Washington was president, he lived New York and then in Philadelphia, But

43:50

he knew that there needed to be a permanent residence for the president Presidential

43:54

house as they Would call it. And his big thing was whatever.

43:57

They end up building Monarchical

44:01

Rule, like no gilded doors and a big arched gateway.

44:05

He was like, I'm Mr. President, right?

44:07

It's not a presidential palace Because the idea is that the government, the democracy is supposed to be other people by the people for the people.

44:14

Washington was in a tricky situation because he liked the finer things in life.

44:17

He liked some choice fabrics plus suits, purple carrots.

44:22

The example Alexis gave us, that's like excellent for this very thing is for his inauguration.

44:27

He Orders a simple homespun brown suit.

44:32

But if you look down at his shoes, he's wearing diamond Shoes

44:37

with diamonds, Diamond

44:41

buck. Wow.

44:43

And so under Washington, what we ultimately end up with for a president's home is definitely not a palace, but it's also, I mean, it's a, it's a mansion when it was built.

44:55

It was the biggest house in all of DC.

44:59

It's like a conflicted, confused space all the way through, you know, the white house is built by enslaved people.

45:06

The, the first handful of presidents besides Adams are all slave owners.

45:12

They're like fancy southerners who are trying to like figure out how to also be democratic, which is like, these are like the primordial problems of American democracy.

45:22

Like who's in, who gets to be inside of it.

45:26

And who's not inside of it. It's like all the stuff that's kind of like baked into the formation of the country is also baked into the formation of the white house.

45:36

And so this is where it gets kind of fascinating because for example, both the house and the Senate have rules for dress code.

45:45

Like they have dress codes, they have rules for decorum.

45:47

Like the white house doesn't have anything that's codified.

45:50

And so what the white house becomes is this space where in each administration, they can sort of dictate what the white house ought to be and kind of like demonstrate what they think our country should be.

46:07

You know, it's played out in the crisp, like what Christmas trees, the first lady chooses.

46:11

And, you know, I was immediate like thinking about that and the land.

46:15

And there's like, you know, George Bush band BlueJeans in the white house, but Obama would let staff workers work without their suit jackets on like all these questions of formality and taste are really questions about like, what is the white house?

46:28

And in some sense, like who is America and the lacrosse players, when they flopped onto the floor of the white house, they were kind of unwittingly walking right into the middle of this question.

46:39

There wasn't a set of rules where it felt like we were doing something wrong.

46:45

That's Kate. Again, I had no idea until my brother was the one that yelled at me.

46:49

I mean, they thought they were wearing nice shoes.

46:52

Yeah. You know, the more I reflect on it, Shelby again, I wonder if anyone would have even thought twice about what a men's team wore on their feet.

47:01

And I think one of my favorite things about this whole thing is that when these women went on the today show, when they were basically asked to appear on national television, to apologize for having worn flip flops to the white house, this ragtag group of women who had won this national championship against all odds, they walked up onto the stage at NBC studio, one a in New York city wearing matching flip-flops When

47:33

it got to the white house, did you look around and say, Ooh, maybe this is a little inappropriate.

47:42

And that was, you did that on purpose. That was sort of like, oh, absolutely.

47:47

Absolutely.

47:49

They asked me what makes a champion, let me sell you put up for fight.

48:00

That's

48:00

what

48:00

make

48:00

them

48:00

look

48:06

twice. That's right. That's what she look like.

48:12

All right. Okay. So next up, we are going to a place where flip-flops are not only allowed, they are celebrated the pool.

48:24

Fun. Fun is not exactly the word I use to describe this story.

48:27

It's a, it's kind of the story of an ethical conundrum.

48:31

That's how I would put it.

48:33

And it involves an Olympian, a global pandemic.

48:37

And because I roped him into us, our colleague David Gable.

48:44

Oh, and a floppy to all right.

48:47

Lots of calls me. And he said, have you ever heard of Greg Louganis?

48:51

And I said, I'm a gay man who is 64.

48:53

Of course I've heard of him.

48:58

Okay. So we're talking about the 1988 Olympics in soul.

49:03

You're Welcome to day four of our coverage from South Korea.

49:06

Greg Louganis is both a platform and springboard diver.

49:10

And at the prior Olympics, gold medaled in both, No

49:14

diver has ever won back to back goals.

49:16

Greg Louganis is expected to do that here on soul, Going

49:20

into the 1988 Olympic games.

49:22

I was the favorite that's Greg.

49:23

And then I'm in the prelims.

49:25

Fortunately, it was prelims Something

49:29

Greg never expected to happen happened.

49:33

Diving vineyard, CHOGM, shell, indoor swimming pool, the preliminaries of the man's three meters.

49:38

Greg has done eight dives. He steps up to the board for his ninth dive, wait, I feel like I need a visual.

49:43

What does he look like? Oh my gosh.

49:45

He's like Hollywood handsome, wavy, dark hair, fit body.

49:50

Like the Calvin Klein ads in times square.

49:53

And

49:53

you

49:53

can

49:53

see

49:53

his

49:53

concentration

49:53

like

49:53

the

49:53

whole

49:53

world

49:53

falls

49:53

away,

49:53

but

49:53

the

49:53

whole

49:53

world

49:53

is

49:53

actually

49:53

watching

50:01

him. And then I got set, takes three steps, Jumped

50:08

up off The board. But six feet up in the air, swings his legs over his head starts a backflip goes around once, twice.

50:18

And then I heard this big hollow thud, and I go crashing into the water.

50:36

You see people sitting in the stands and their hands are over their mouth in shock Thinking,

50:40

what the hell is that?

50:41

And then I realized that was my head.

50:46

That would go back and look at it as slow motion. What happened?

50:49

Greg did not get his weight far enough.

50:51

Over the end of the board, watch his hips in relation to his pills right there, his weight, his Too

50:56

far back, kind of amazingly.

50:58

He just pops up out of the water and he swims to the edge of the pool and Made

51:03

my way over to my coach, Ron O'Brien And

51:06

the coach is pushing the blood up into his dark hair so that the blood running down his neck isn't showing is that he split open his scalp at the back of his head.

51:17

So he walks away from the pool.

51:19

It gets brought back into a training room, strong medical staff was there and they stitch them up.

51:25

The first emotion that I felt was I was embarrassed know, and of course the world's watching, But

51:30

there's one thing the world didn't see.

51:32

And that's actually what drew me to this story because inside this very public moment, this very public flop was the secret that Greg wouldn't actually reveal.

51:43

Until years later You

51:46

hit your head and then may have been brought in the water.

51:49

Why were you terrified?

51:53

Because

51:53

Ron

51:53

O'Brien

51:53

and

51:53

myself,

51:53

we're

51:53

one

51:53

of

51:53

the

51:53

few

51:53

people

51:53

in

51:53

the

51:53

stands

51:53

that,

51:53

that

51:53

knew

51:53

that

51:53

I

51:53

was

51:53

HIV

51:53

positive

52:05

And considered to be the greatest diver in Olympic history has announced today that he has aids.

52:10

So when Greg finally reveals his status to the world in 1995, it was huge.

52:16

Please welcome Greg Louganis.

52:17

He was on all the shows. He was on Oprah and Greg has come forward.

52:21

Sally, Jesse Raphael. He is Publicizing

52:23

a Past.

52:25

And in these interviews, the same questions or kinds of questions, keep coming up.

52:30

How would a smart guy Like you practice unsafe Sex

52:34

on Larry King?

52:37

I am not following How'd

52:40

you get aids. And then once you knew you had it and you were going to the Olympics, Barbara Walters asked, why didn't you tell anybody?

52:50

I didn't anticipate hitting my head on the board.

52:52

I didn't participate.

52:54

You know, blood that's something that you don't, I didn't think about at the time, But

53:04

you didn't tell the Olympic committee tell Anyone.

53:08

I was encouraged not to.

53:11

Greg told Barbara that he had told his coach, but almost nobody else.

53:16

Because like, if you was, if he was HIV positive, he, he wasn't allowed at the country.

53:20

That would have been, he probably would have been barred from the Olympics.

53:23

He probably wouldn't be like he was in Seoul, but he w he had disclosed his status.

53:27

He wouldn't have been allowed. Yup.

53:29

Wow. There was a list of countries that had it announced, you may not enter the country if you test HIV positive.

53:38

Right. And if he had announced it while he's there, he would have been sent home immediately.

53:42

But Barbara Walters just kept asking him.

53:46

I had, and there was blood perhaps in that water, what did you think?

53:51

That's where I became paralyzed with fear.

53:56

I watched that going stop beating this guy up for 10 minutes of his life.

54:02

Yeah. I mean, it is hard to watch and, and, and I think even then, like, people mostly knew that HIV couldn't even be transmitted that way.

54:12

Like the pool was so big, the water was chlorinated, you know?

54:17

So, so it does, there's part of it that does feel like it's just like everyone ganging up on the gay guy, but, but there is, I don't know.

54:25

There is one part of it that feels like a fair question to me.

54:29

And that's like, when I think about the doctor, right?

54:33

The guy who was stitching up Greg's head, he wasn't wearing latex gloves.

54:37

And so he was stitching them up.

54:40

Like if he had pricked his finger with that needle, he, he could have contracted HIV to, to me that moment, that, that is very morally complicated.

54:52

Yeah. One of my fears was, you know, well, what is my responsibility, knowing that I'm HIV positive, you know, Without

54:59

like, like, was that like a, like a, like a It's

55:05

like, what, what do I do?

55:06

What's what's the next right step?

55:09

Did you know the doctor wasn't wearing gloves?

55:12

I didn't see it. I had my face down and I didn't have eyes on the top of my head.

55:16

And, and that's just, it, you don't know what you don't know, you're dealing with this situation in that moment.

55:24

What is your, like, just, just walk me through your, your internal model.

55:29

Well, you know, the, the thing is, I mean, one thing that I learned just through practice through my years and years, and years of performing is always asking myself, what do I have control of?

55:43

Usually not much.

55:46

Okay. There were no latex gloves.

55:49

Okay. That's not in my control.

55:51

And so it's, it's basically letting it go After

55:58

we talked to Greg, I just, like, I kept thinking like, he's he's right.

56:02

There's nothing he could have done about the accident.

56:05

Nothing he could've done about the doctor, not wearing gloves, but he didn't keep thinking, like he did have control over whether or not he told the guy.

56:16

Yeah. But you're making it sound so simple.

56:19

Put

56:19

yourself

56:19

in

56:19

his,

56:19

put

56:19

yourself

56:19

in

56:19

his

56:19

Speedo

56:19

and

56:19

think

56:19

about

56:19

what

56:19

just

56:29

happened. All that's at stake.

56:31

Right. You know, when he came out as HIV positive and gay, I'm relieved and feeling like I'm not the only one who's thinking about this kind of thing.

56:38

I think me and HIV positive people around the world.

56:42

Cause I tested positive in 87, little earlier than he did.

56:47

And I got this job to sing a Tokyo Disneyland and I needed this job really badly.

56:54

And I was very familiar with that list of countries that you're forbidden to enter.

56:59

And Japan is on there too, coming into Narita airport, outside Tokyo in this very formal, very polite English, but Japanese, Japanese thought kind of sign.

57:14

It says, hello. If you are HIV positive, please step over here and register.

57:19

And I remember walking under that going, you have got to be kidding me.

57:22

I am not saying a word.

57:25

So when, when I'm hearing lots of go back about what were you thinking at the moment?

57:29

Well, you kind of think about that moment every day of I'm in the kitchen and I'm having dinner with friends and I cut myself and what do I do?

57:37

I'm not going to announce to everyone I'm HIV positive, but I'm going to make sure I clean it up, run it under water, get it bandaged up and have my heart stopped pounding.

57:47

So to zoom in on, did you make the right choice in that moment when you're getting stitched up is an understandable question.

57:56

But I mean, think about all the secrets you got to keep because you have to keep them The part of that, that I like.

58:23

Yeah. That I like really hadn't considered was this feeling that it's like this one moment, however, you know, highly public, it was, it was just like one moment in a string of so many moments like this.

58:37

Yeah.

58:37

So

58:37

I

58:37

guess

58:37

to

58:37

end

58:37

the

58:37

story

58:37

of

58:37

this

58:37

moment,

58:37

what

58:37

happened

58:48

next? They checked him over.

58:50

Okay. So Greg finishes getting stitched up and he goes to talk to his coach.

58:54

He said, you know, you can pack up. You don't have to get back on the board.

58:57

We could Just go home.

59:00

But

59:00

I

59:00

was

59:00

in

59:00

fifth

59:03

place. I turned to my coach and you know, I said that we've worked too long and hard.

59:08

He said, okay, They're not going to go home.

59:10

They're going to keep going, continue In

59:13

The competition. So he gets back on the board.

59:17

Dives Remaining heard an audible gasp from the audience.

59:23

I remember watching it and I just held my breath for you to take that next dive.

59:27

Yeah. Yeah, because you didn't know what was going to happen, right?

59:30

Oh, I didn't know it was going to happen either, but it's the Olympic games First.

59:40

I've nailed it.

59:43

It was the highest scoring dive of the Olympic games.

59:45

It does the next time.

59:46

And

59:46

he's

59:46

going

59:46

to

59:46

the

59:46

finals

59:46

next

59:46

night

59:46

in

59:46

the

59:52

finals.

59:52

He

59:52

wins

59:52

gold

59:52

in

59:52

the

59:56

springboard. And then, Well,

59:57

final dive of his competition.

59:59

He's up For gold on the Platform

1:00:01

is last chance.

1:00:03

Dive takes less than three seconds.

1:00:11

Dana's wins his second gold medal of these Olympics becoming the first man to win both the platform and the springboard competition in two Olympic games, Coming

1:00:40

up. Two more flops, one into the water and one out of it.

1:00:52

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Wherever you listen to your favorite shows, Lulu

1:02:05

Radiolab. That was me flapping.

1:02:07

It's a flap show flip show. All right.

1:02:08

Our next flap comes to us from flip floppy.

1:02:12

Okay. Flipping flop. Yeah. Producer Rachael Cusick.

1:02:14

All right. I'm going to start by telling you about a time when I didn't flap, But

1:02:19

I wished I had, ah, the flop that got away.

1:02:22

Exactly. All right, Rachel, please explain.

1:02:25

Okay. So last summer I was in Utah with a friend and it was just brutal.

1:02:30

It was so hot that we were in a parking lot and the temperature read 114 degrees.

1:02:35

That is my friend who I was with. Her name is Tamara and Tamara being tomorrow.

1:02:38

She went onto Google and found a public pool for us to go to.

1:02:42

So we drove a few towns over, put on our bathing suits and walked out on the deck.

1:02:47

And it's clearly like the place to be on a day like today, pool noodles, slapping the water and like all this laughter And

1:02:55

the centerpiece of it all was the diving board.

1:02:59

Now Tamara is like immediately giddy.

1:03:03

These are my people, the people, if the diving board, She

1:03:06

leaves me behind and gets in line with arrange Of

1:03:09

six year olds, the 12 Year

1:03:11

old, she got onto the highest diving board and jumped and she just looked so happy, like so perfectly carefree, but that's not how I felt at all.

1:03:24

Why growing up.

1:03:27

I just was B one in my family who is heaviest and in my friends who was the heaviest.

1:03:31

And so as I grew up the pool was where I was at my most vulnerable.

1:03:35

Like there wasn't any hiding from clothes.

1:03:37

And so I kind of trained myself to be as small as I possibly could at the pool.

1:03:43

So that day in Utah, I'm at a crowded pool of strangers.

1:03:47

And I'm like, how can I get myself in that pool as fast as possible, but also like, as quietly as possible, I'm like looking at the pool, searching for the corner, furthest away from the eyes of the diving board.

1:04:00

Like the cool lifeguards, they were off to the left.

1:04:03

I got to like stay away from them.

1:04:04

Meanwhile, I was 25 years old.

1:04:08

I am a great person.

1:04:09

Like I should not be strategizing away from the, the lifeguard in the bucket hat, but that's where we were that day.

1:04:15

And then I see that there's like awkward kids in the corner.

1:04:18

So I had their way, I looked both ways to make sure no one's watching me.

1:04:23

And then slowly, carefully, like I'm putting a potato into a pot of boiling water.

1:04:28

I slinked my body into the pool.

1:04:31

So it was just disappeared.

1:04:33

Totally. You this entire time reach, just so you know, we're just kind of like bathing with all of your bodies, submerged, except for your shoulders and your head.

1:04:44

It's like an Alligator. You look kind of like, just not sad, but just let down.

1:04:50

I feel like almost you're shut down in a way.

1:04:53

And she was right. Like, I felt defeated like a kid who got bullied by myself.

1:04:58

It

1:04:58

wasn't

1:05:02

good. So, so that was what happened back in July.

1:05:05

And then this flop show comes along and pretty much the minute we get this prompt, I turned on YouTube and started bingeing videos, our Eighth

1:05:16

annual belly Flop combination of belly flops.

1:05:19

And I was spending hours doing this was Postcard

1:05:24

belly flopping. I will show you how to do It

1:05:27

from any Heights. I watched people who are like giving tutorials, ladies and gentlemen, Welcome

1:05:31

back to us. Little Norway and world Championship

1:05:33

of duds. I learned that the Norwegians have a national sport dedicated to the belly flop.

1:05:37

I became obsessed with the belly flop and I didn't even know why, like I'm staring at these videos of belly flops, the way that you stare at your fridge when you're really hungry and you don't even know what you need to eat.

1:05:54

But then I watched this one video.

1:06:00

It's a, these mannerisms that jump out of the water and then they like kind of sail.

1:06:05

And then they plop down like a pancake, the higher, The

1:06:13

bigger, the bang, These manners and their belly flops.

1:06:18

They are the opposite of me in that pool last summer and watching them.

1:06:24

I was like, I want someone to teach me to do that.

1:06:29

And

1:06:29

so,

1:06:29

okay,

1:06:29

let's

1:06:29

go

1:06:34

change. We'll see you in a minute, Annie McEwen.

1:06:36

And I never Know

1:06:38

where Life will take. You drive up to Boston and belly flop with the ultimate belly flopper.

1:06:45

I'm Chris Miller. I'm, I'm Lulu Miller's father.

1:06:47

And

1:06:47

I

1:06:47

think

1:06:47

that's

1:06:47

why

1:06:47

I'm

1:06:47

here,

1:06:47

but

1:06:47

it

1:06:47

is

1:06:47

true

1:06:47

that

1:06:47

I

1:06:47

have

1:06:47

been

1:06:47

belly

1:06:47

flopping

1:06:47

for

1:06:47

about

1:06:47

70

1:06:59

years. As I know you guys were like, we need someone.

1:07:02

And I was like, I've got a real B Lister.

1:07:04

Like he's got no plans and it's one of his only interest.

1:07:14

So the three of us meet up at a hotel pool.

1:07:18

I'm sure it's going to be, Yes,

1:07:21

we're out in the deck. And even though it was November, the pool was empty.

1:07:25

Like no one was there.

1:07:27

I still felt that feeling from the summer lurking afraid to even try.

1:07:33

But honestly, the minute that feeling bubbled up for me, Lulu, your dad was like, you Want

1:07:38

to have a demonstration?

1:07:41

Can you demonstrate to start? All right.

1:07:42

It's just a matter of starting to dive, but not arching.

1:07:47

And he just kind of his body And it just is it's dazzling looked awful.

1:08:00

And then it was my turn.

1:08:03

Oh God, am I going to, oh, this feels like big leagues.

1:08:06

I kind of stand like a plank with my feet at the edge of the pool in the deep end, Chris is coaching me from inside the pool.

1:08:13

You

1:08:13

just

1:08:13

do

1:08:16

it. And then I kind of surrender to gravity and then just let my head, oh my God carried down.

1:08:23

And

1:08:23

the

1:08:23

first

1:08:23

thing

1:08:23

I

1:08:23

heard

1:08:23

when

1:08:23

I

1:08:23

popped

1:08:23

my

1:08:23

head

1:08:23

out

1:08:23

of

1:08:23

the

1:08:23

water

1:08:23

was

1:08:23

Chris

1:08:23

cheering

1:08:23

me

1:08:34

on. And so there was this weird tension between like pure pride and You

1:08:40

don't get like a smack in the face.

1:08:41

There's always a, But

1:08:45

soon the pleasure of the flop outweighed the pain of it.

1:08:51

And

1:08:51

so

1:08:51

I

1:08:51

just

1:08:51

kept

1:08:58

flopping. Okay.

1:09:03

Alright.

1:09:16

How many times did you belly flop? I would say at least like 15 to 20, My

1:09:26

body feels like it's been smacked by like one giant.

1:09:33

Every time I would emerge being like, that was the most painful thing that's ever happened.

1:09:37

Oh yeah.

1:09:47

But we do it again and again and again.

1:09:53

No, you can do this with running.

1:09:58

Meanwhile, Andy standing on the, on the side being like, I have no idea what's going on, But it didn't matter.

1:10:05

Cause it felt like I was making up for all the years.

1:10:08

I didn't get in the pool that way.

1:10:09

And

1:10:09

I

1:10:09

was

1:10:09

feeling

1:10:09

for

1:10:09

years,

1:10:09

eventually

1:10:09

I

1:10:09

became

1:10:09

one

1:10:09

with

1:10:09

the

1:10:09

flop

1:10:09

and

1:10:09

Chris

1:10:09

and

1:10:09

I

1:10:09

took

1:10:09

on

1:10:09

the

1:10:09

pool,

1:10:09

just

1:10:09

like

1:10:09

the

1:10:09

man

1:10:09

res

1:10:09

And

1:10:09

when

1:10:09

I

1:10:09

emerged

1:10:09

from

1:10:09

that

1:10:09

last

1:10:09

flop,

1:10:09

I

1:10:09

felt

1:10:09

at

1:10:09

least

1:10:09

in

1:10:09

that

1:10:09

moment

1:10:09

triumph,

1:10:09

But

1:10:09

also

1:10:09

the

1:10:09

worst

1:10:09

headache

1:10:09

I've

1:10:09

ever

1:10:09

had

1:10:09

in

1:10:09

my

1:10:53

life. Oh God. Yeah. I think there's gotta be a PSA announcement at some point.

1:10:57

My entire front of my body is popped blood vessels.

1:11:01

Like my legs are still blue.

1:11:03

Thank God. Yeah. I called my doctor the other day and I had to like have the most shameful intro on the phone to be like, so I was like repeatedly belly flopping on Monday night.

1:11:13

And I just want to know like, do you think I need to come in for a scan, but I think it's okay.

1:11:18

She thinks it's fine. And I just need to take it easy the next few.

1:11:23

All right. Thank you. Rich. Thank you dad.

1:11:25

I think, and for our final flop, I'm going to flop us right on out of the water on the land.

1:11:33

It is time.

1:11:35

That means it's time to look at a fish flopping around awkwardly on land, a fish flop.

1:11:42

Okay. Okay. All right.

1:11:44

So you know, this is the kind of thing I've ever actually seen this before.

1:11:47

Really? No, I don't think I've seen that. Okay.

1:11:49

Well allow me to conjure it for you.

1:11:51

Picture a beautiful scaled creature, lying on a dock, trying to move heaving up, bumping down and heaving up, slumping down, getting nowhere, you know, gasp kind of thing.

1:12:09

Exactly. And I think since the first time I saw it, it's just been burned into my brain as the saddest, most pathetic movement in nature.

1:12:19

However, few weeks ago, rolling bowling, the shit where I met someone who watches fish flopping almost every day and she completely reframed how I see it.

1:12:36

My name is Rachel Zack and I'm a senior aquarist on the special exhibits team at Shedd aquarium.

1:12:42

Hello, turtle, adorable.

1:12:43

So Rachel walked me around all these massive tanks of clown fish and shark.

1:12:49

I'll show you the revenues, see dragons, puffer, fish, grumpy frog.

1:12:54

First of all, she explained that every species of fish has its own little distinctive flop flop or would it just like wriggle, like a snake they fly.

1:13:05

And the thing that really holds them all together is that none of them, none of these flops or what she would call pathetic.

1:13:14

In fact, when she sees a fish flop, she thinks that's an awesome behavior.

1:13:19

That's exactly what they're supposed to do.

1:13:21

It's part of how they survive flopping Effective,

1:13:24

like a fish that you drop on a peer flops enough to make its way to the end of the pier There.

1:13:30

So there's a real there's skill there's technique.

1:13:34

There's just a ton of power Just

1:13:36

flailing, right? Like how much technique is there?

1:13:39

Well, the voice you just heard is Alice Gib biologist at Northern Arizona university, who for the last decade has been filming fish flopping on desks in her lap.

1:13:51

She filmed all different kinds of species.

1:13:54

And when she played the videos back in slow-mo and watched what's really going on inside that motion, she saw that the fish is doing something that seems, have you ever watched Somebody

1:14:12

dribble a basketball?

1:14:13

And they started flat on the ground and they tap it just gently.

1:14:17

And

1:14:17

if

1:14:17

you

1:14:17

tap

1:14:17

it

1:14:17

and

1:14:17

tap

1:14:17

it

1:14:17

and

1:14:17

tap

1:14:17

it,

1:14:17

you

1:14:17

can

1:14:17

start

1:14:17

the

1:14:17

ball

1:14:17

bouncing

1:14:17

up

1:14:17

and

1:14:17

down

1:14:17

and

1:14:17

bigger

1:14:17

and

1:14:17

bigger

1:14:17

and

1:14:24

bigger. So the fish somehow bounces itself.

1:14:28

And at a certain point they kind of jerk up onto their tail Problem

1:14:34

was perpendicular to the ground at this Point.

1:14:36

And then they launch forward often into the water.

1:14:45

Wow. Fish didn't learn to flop because we dropped them on decks.

1:14:49

Right? Fish learns a flop for many different reasons grunion which is a kind of fish actually flops out of the water for their baby's sake.

1:14:57

So they'll like flop up onto the sand lay eggs.

1:15:00

So underwater creatures can't get them.

1:15:02

And then flop back down into the water.

1:15:04

They are rockstars or there, there are other fish Tilly fish that flopped because they live in these tiny little pools.

1:15:11

And sometimes there might only be one in a pool and the males they need to find females to breed with.

1:15:17

They'll just kind of flop like 10 times the length of their body into another pool In

1:15:23

a human centered world. When people talk about, I flopped down on the couch or something, it seems to imply maybe an uncoordinated movement that then is followed by no movement at all.

1:15:33

Right? Like it sort of implies that you've hit a, a dead end, but that's not what's going on with the fish on land.

1:15:39

Right. Because even the flops, which I think are called flops because they appear uncoordinated, they have the ability to maybe take something that could be a dead end and turn it into another chance.

1:16:03

But like, like a fish flopping on the back into the water lake.

1:16:06

How often could that possibly work?

1:16:09

Okay. Probably not that often.

1:16:11

Sometimes, but not that much.

1:16:15

But the thing that makes me think of is like, when you think about us, like, like we're we were ocean creatures at the beginning before it became land creatures and, and for us to have gotten to the land at all, ever, like that was probably the first way it happened.

1:16:35

Like we're only possible because of fish flops that there was this, there was this moment, there was this pivotal fish flop without which we would not access.

1:16:56

Boom. Right. Yeah.

1:16:58

Yeah. That's beautiful. We don't need to say anymore.

1:17:01

Okay. All right. That'll do it.

1:17:11

This episode was reported and produced by Annie McEwen.

1:17:15

Cynthiana somebody's Soren Wheeler, Alex Neeson, Tanya chop law had the Radke, Matt Kielty, David Gable, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusak and pat Walters with additional sound design and mixing from Jeremy blooms.

1:17:30

Thanks to Caitlin Murphy, Dana Stevens, David Novak, and Pablo Pinero Stillman.

1:17:35

And thank you for listening on what was probably felt like a very flimsy premise at the beginning, but maybe it was we'll be back with more episodes next year.

1:17:48

Bring it up.

1:18:01

Radiolab was created by Jad boom rod and it's edited by Soren Wheeler, Lou Miller and Latif Nasir.

1:18:07

Our co-hosts Susie Lichtenberg is our executive producer and Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design or staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachael Cusick, w Harry Fortuna, David Gable.

1:18:21

Wyndham, Matt Kilty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sarah Qari, Arianne wack, pat Walters and Molly Webster with help from Tanya and Sarah songbook.

1:18:34

Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Adam Chevelle.

1:18:40

This is Ryan Percy calling from Stowe.

1:18:43

Vermont radio lab is supported in part by the Alfred P Sloan foundation enhancing public understanding of science technology in the modern world.

1:18:52

More information [email protected].

1:18:59

Science reporting on radio lab is supported in part by science sandbox, a Simons foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science.

1:19:16

Hey, this is Jad. Radiolab is supported by capital one, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit is another reason banking with capital.

1:19:23

One is one of the easiest decisions in the history of decisions.

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Even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with no fees or minimums on checking and savings account.

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See capital one.com/bank capital one and a member FDI C.

1:19:44

Hello. It's Faruk from It's Farooq from Istanbul. Turkey. Radiolab is supported by Geico celebrating over 85 years of providing auto Life is supported by GEICO, celebrating over eighty five years of providing auto insurance the drivers across America. More information on auto insurance More information on auto insurance available at geico dot com. Thatll you. Hey, it's it's love. Radiolab is supported by NerdWallet's smart money Radiolab is supported by NerdWallet Smart podcast. Where do you get your financial Where do you get your financial advice? Your partner, your Your partner, your parents. How about listening to the about listening to experts? Check out NerdWallet's smart money podcast for the weekly the Check out NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast for the weekly advice you need to stay ahead your finances. Subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite shows, Subscribe wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Listener supported, WNYC Studios. Okay. So here we are on the precipice of a New Year, but before we jump into it. We wanted to just look back on all the stories and updates Radiolab brought you This year, Harry year. Harry Pace. Why why don't we have, like, three movies about this dude? Reb Myosin. They just wanted to thank him. For keeping their kids alive. Placenta, when you're pregnant, you grow an entirely new organ. Breathe red herring, that conversation with Annie and Lulu But Farts. Are you with an intro approach or something? Are you not? One of my favorite moments in podcasting of all time. So many grades. In a way putting red herring next to breath, it's like breath comes out one way in the road. Yeah. The other way. You know what I You know what I mean? Anyway, so why are we looking back? Well, it's that time of year. Right? This is the moment when, like, you take stock of things that you care about and you want to financially support, but we've got a new way for you to do that. It's called the lab. And to be a part of the lab, there are three tiers you can choose. So depending on how generous you're feeling or or how much of a peak you wanna get behind the scenes, you get A lot of great stuff. We got some magnets. We got some embroidered retro patches. We got tote bags. And instead of ads, you'll get bonus content and you'll get interviews or invitations to members only events. You get a livestream following Thatll around twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Can we just dwell for on the No Ads thing. I have to say this is like revolutionary. No. I just like I breathe in more deeply even just thinking about it. The story just goes. So to take a look, see if you wanna join, you just head on over to radiolab dot org slash join. If you do end up supporting us. We really appreciate so much. Yeah. And have a happy New Year. Oh, wait. You're listening. Okay. Alright. Okay. Alright. You're listening. To radio lab. Radiolab. From WNY. Dun dun dun dun dun Done. dun. I feel like I'm in an elevator or feel like I'm in an elevator or something. I'm in a lobby. Hi. This Zulu? No. No. It's Zulu. And this is the last episode of Radiolab for the year of twenty twenty one. And it's been a wow. It's been a year. Like, do Louis, do you remember last year? AT THIS TIME. Reporter: YEAH, THERE WAS SO MUCH BURJANING HOPE. Reporter: PFIZER AND BIONTOK HAS SHOWED EARLY PROMISE Derna announcing its vaccine. Johnson and Johnson's vaccine is being called a new weapon tonight. This time, it's just one shot. Yeah. It was vaccine after vaccine after vaccine. Prosthetic cuts, but Nick b, vaccine. Anything was possible. Leaves We're coming up coming up. Needles were going in. Vaccinated. People do not carry the virus. Don't get sick. There was this moment of excitement. Yeah. Like, we can lick this thing. Unless something very odd happens. I would say that it is pretty much I would say that it is pretty much over And then and then we did it. And now it's all solved and everything's great. It's all over terrific. And we're not quite. I know. The pandemic just won't leave us. Right? I mean, some of it was not our mean, some of it was not our fault. I mean, some of it was our fault as a human species. Some of it was not our fault. But regardless, as we've been looking back on this year, the second one in a row that has felt like it hurt like it started with so much promise and we're ending with a whimper. We've realized that, you know, this year has been a flop. It's been a flop of a year. Yeah. So here at Radiolab, as this crappy year comes to a close, we decided to pay homage to the flop here at Radiolab, as this crappy year comes to a close, we decided to pay homage to the flop itself. This very common and yet very seldom celebrated human experience of flopping. So without further ado, we bring you Not just one, not just two, but Six flops. Six flops. Slops that are in the ocean versus Flops that are on basketball courts. I'm not sure you got hit in the face. That's a sales job right now. Flops that are on stage in front of millions of people. Flops in the White House, disgusting, disappointing, but not in the way you think. This is gonna have a halo. Six flops of various shapes, forms, velocities, hoping that as we flop our way to the end of the year, it might be nice to flop with others. And it might give us a little insight into thatll on the other side of a flop. Are you in pain? So who has our first flop? I have it. Three. Hello? Who are you? My name My name is Cindi Niyana Sambendam. Welcome. Thank you. You know what you got? Were you taking us? We are going back to the early two thousands. See this show, American Idol, of course. Which was one of my favorite shows growing up. Yeah. And, you know, you you probably know how it's set up. It's pretty simple. Consistents go in front of these three judges, sing a song, Sometimes they're great. Sometimes they're really not. Yeah. And the performance that I remember most from the show It's actually one of these flop auditions, and that's the one I'm gonna tell you about. Okay. So this flop happened in September of two thousand three. Hello. Hi. Hi, how you How are you doing, though? Oh, great. Thank you. We're doing great. Great to see you guys. This skinny Chinese guy wearing black pants and this blue short sleeve shirt. Walks on stage. William, why are you here? I'm here to, to sing to America here to to sing to America. Answers a few questions from the judges. What are you gonna sing? I would like to say, Ricky Martin, she banks. Can you all enjoy it? Okay. Alright. Let's go. Alright. And start singing. Talk to me. Tell me your name. You blow me off like it's all the same. You lay in prison. I'm taking away like a bomb. He's bouncing around in this, like, kind of awkward way. You can tell he's trying to dance, but It's it's not really working. Cheap eggs, cheap eggs, old baby, pushy boos, cheap boos. I go crazy because she lose like it's not, but she stays like it being. And eventually I do. Did judge just cut him off? William, it's one of actually the worst auditions we've had this year. I already gave my best and there's I have no request at all. And for some reason, this flop by this guy William hug more than any other flop in maybe the history of the whole show -- Mhmm. -- it went viral. Let me just say I have no professional training and music. Talk to me. Tell me your name. There's an SNL sketch about it. She said she said People made parodies. Making fun of his voice. From China. He's from Singapore because he seems really poor. His accent, even his teeth, accent. I'd rather get my ass. Even his deep. I'm gonna take Some carrots and carrots and tomatoes and put it with the willy of hummus, ava. Thatll did you think about all this when you saw it happening? I I mean, I was just a kid. I probably just laughed with everyone else. But, you know, watching it now, it really just makes me sad. What is sad about it? I mean, I think why he was so laughed at was because he sort of fit this, like, nerdy Asian stereotype. Yeah. And, like, I grew up in this place that was filled the people who are Asian American and, you know, just like a very immigrant community. Yeah. And as an immigrant watching TV and, like, especially a show like American Idol. It's sort of this way to answer this question of, like, how am I supposed to be here? Like, what is like Do you know what's, like, what's I What's good? What's what's the goal? Yeah. And and American Idol the the cleanest version of that because you literally get someone just like going and being themselves and then three people being like, thatll was good. I like this. I like what you're wearing. I like how you talk. He always did. Exactly. That's so funny because it's -- Yeah. -- like an American Idol. It's like your American Paragon of what it is to be an American. Right. Right. And, you know, William Hung -- He didn't fit the part. Right. He didn't fit. And, you know, I thought when this whole thing happened, when America essentially told him, William Hung, you don't belong. I thought he'd just like disappear. But he sort of did the opposite of that. Oh, my wife's coming. Yeah. We can park in the house. Becoming an overnight cultural phenomenon like that. Which was so strange to me. Like, he goes on all these big plaques shows and performs cheap bangs in malls, concerts, sports games. He does a halftime show at Golden State Warriors game, a concert at the Rose Bowl with, like, Janet Jackson and Marin five. Oh, my god. She's back. It's like he's reliving the nightmare of that American Idol audition over and over and over again. Yeah. And I just like, I never would have done that. You know, I I was a kind of kid who, if I got one answer wrong in class, I wouldn't wanna go back the next day. And this guy was like going back to school, jumping on the desk, and just like shouting the wrong answer again and again and again. It's like he's immune to being humiliated. Yeah. And I've always wondered, like, how? How did he manage to respond this way? So Stillman, how's it going? Good. I called him up. Just a moment. Let me, let me fix my Let me let me fix my background. Yeah. Sure. He's thirty nine years old now, lives in Jacksonville, Florida with a friend. Okay. After the whole American Idol thing, he tried to become a high school teacher, but that didn't quite work out. And now he's a professional poker player. Did you just make your bed? Yeah. I asked him how he ended up auditioning for American Idol, And he said it's not like he grew up wanting to be a performer. He moved to the US from Hong Kong when he was ten and had a really hard time fitting in. You could say that I'm more of a You could say that I'm more of a loner. My best friends were my teachers. He got bullied in middle school. Probably just because I'm Chinese or Asian. Because I was the only Asian in my class. And college wasn't much easier. I didn't know how to make friends. So, fortunately, But then one day he's walking into his dorm and this poster catches his then, one day, he's walking into his dorm and this poster catches his eye. A picture of a guy with a micro-foam, the red curtains behind picture of a guy with a microphone, a red curtains behind it. And it's This poster for this talent show that has dorms poster for this talent show thatll his dorm's holding, and he decides on a whim to sign himself up. It's like a new opportunity. He used to love doing karaoke with his parents. The way I thought was I had nothing to lose. He chooses Ricky Martin's she bangs. I just try to mimic Ricky Martin's dance moves. Practices. So, like, cheap ass. Shebanks. And when he gets on stage I see people were dancing with I see people were dancing with me. They were so excited And then the end, people were giving me loud cheers and applause. Yeah. Whoa. Woo. And he ended up actually winning the whole he ends up actually winning the whole show. Wow. I I was like, what? Really? Yeah. He wins a DVD player. Nice. So it does so that that so it's one of those nice that you feel like you were on top of the world. Later that week, he's he's watching Fox News, which watches every night. And he sees an advertisement for auditions for American Idol. I was like, wow. Maybe there's an opportunity there. And, you You know, he's still like riding off the high of winning this, this school talent show he's Stillman, like, riding off the high of, like, winning this this school talent show. I could win big. Right? Nobody knows. And he's like, you know what? This is the next step. I'm gonna sign myself up. I love a next step. Yeah. And you vote so how this went. Though. It was so weird and funny, like Randy would hold It was so weird and funny. Mhmm. Like, Randy, what how does why she did? It's interesting to hear William recount what happened. And the Simon was, like, frowning like this. It was, like, crossing his arms. He seems No. Well, death of surprise of the century. Almost amused. I know I didn't do well on the audition. You know, I was nervous. My movements were very jerky. If you use the standards saying good, it wasn't good, but I couldn't live in it. It's okay. Tell me more about your emotions of that day. And we talked about all of it. You know, the jokes people made about him. Any point feel humiliated? The big performances of Shebang. I was just was just excited. And when I asked him about people making fun of him, I kinda just, like, one ear in, one ear out. But that doesn't hurt hurt you. That doesn't hurt your your feelings. No. They wanna laugh at me. That's fine. Because they they enjoy watching or listening to songs, like, my to my you know, to my style of tea bags, whatever. Hmm. But I wonder if you could talk about even one specific moment that either was painful or humiliating or like angering to wonder if you could talk about even one specific moment that either was painful or humiliating or like angering to you. I really don't have that, Cindy. And that's that's a good that's a good thing. There were some interesting experiences for sure, but it wasn't, like, angered. How to say, it's not so impactful that I had to think about every day. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's just amazing because like, humiliation is a really hard feeling for most people and it definitely is for me and I, you know, I fear it a lot. And, you know, that is one of the reasons I wanna talk to you is because it seems like you're sort of impervious to it or that you're able to perform some type of alkermes or her name. was asking him in all these different ways. And was really starting to feel like he was somehow immune. Until through all of this, did you did you ever cry? I asked him this. No. Not once. No. Not for not for American. I don't know. Hm. What's something that has made you What's something that has made you cry? Ooh, very Very harsh. Very hard. Very hard. Well, there there were a few moments that made me cry. I remember one day I spent a lot of time after teaching preparing the next lesson. This was after the idle steps settled down. He was training to become a teacher. The next day, I was like, okay. These things will go well. I was optimistic. But then, you know, like, the kids just decided not to follow me. You know? They saw me more like a funny and attainer celebrity. They didn't see me as their teacher. And then my master teacher called me out and and and step aside. Like, I'm taking over thatll the the the right. It wasn't a it wasn't a good scene. It was it was an embarrassing scene to me. So yeah. And then he told me he would fail me if I don't improve. I cried after I got home because that really hurts. Thatll that's not a fun thing to hear. Yeah. It felt real, you know, that's like like, oh my gosh. I did all this and you say this is not good enough. Okay. I felt I felt that was a bigger embarrassment. Compared to my American Idol flop. Why did that feel like a bigger flop to you? Because because I I because I worked so hard to get to where I was, I was ready to graduate. I was seriously considered taking on a high school teaching position. After I was done. But after that experience, that changed my mind. It's like, okay, I don't wanna go to this ever again. Yeah. I mean, I I guess that makes sense that that feels more like a flop because I guess with the flop, you need to have a ton of expectation and hope and, you know, you have to care a lot and then you have that crushed with like a huge disappointment, like a total failure. And I guess this experience you had as a teacher does fit that definition way better. Yeah. I agree. But the thing is, like, for me, there's like one more component to the definition, which is like the audience, like, the group of people who who are watching you fail? Yeah. Yeah. And to me, like, that's almost everything. Like, it would matter so much to me that American Idol was in front of millions of people but you don't seem to wait that component very much. And I just like, why do you think that is? Big? Well, like I mentioned, for, for my American idol audition it, I just focus on having fun, enjoying the well, like I mentioned -- Yeah. -- for my for my American Idol audition, I I just focused on having fun, enjoying the moment, and that's it. Yeah. But well, I guess another way to ask this, like, it like, so the store story we're making right now together. It's actually like the first ever story where my voice will be like a big part of it. Oh, you know, millions of people will be listening to this, and that's really scary to me. Like, I, you know, I I guess I'm I'm asking you all this from a place kind of of wanting to learn from you, how Do you not let the fear of judgment from all those people? And for you, not I mean, not just the fear of it, but like the actual judgment, how do you not let that totally crush you? Oh, I like I like this one. So so I would say I choose to embrace my identity. I choose to embrace my past, my present, my future. It's a choice. Like, I don't I feel like I'm not the norm of whatever, like, whatever that means like back then I was not the norm. Now I'm still not the norm. So and that's you find that helpful? I mean, kind of I don't know. I'm gonna I think what I realized Is that what he did to this question and kind of all of my questions? Yeah. Is he sort of just rejects them? Yeah. And think it's because these questions kind of assume that what the judges or the audience, like the people out there, you know, America, They assume that what America thinks matters. Yeah. And I don't know. I just don't think that that's how he operates. I pay my dues. Time after time. I've done my sentence. And I I feel like every time I listen to one of his tracks, and ban mistakes. He's actually made some albums which I've kind of been listening to a lot. It sort of reminds me that William Hung is a way to be in this world. Producer, Cindy Nana Sampanda. When we come back, way more flops, aquatic flops, Olympic flops, NBA flops, More flops, lot more flops. Hey, this is is Jad. Radiolab is supported by capital one, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit is another Radiolab is supported by Capital One, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit is another reason banking with capital. One is one of the easiest decisions in the history of One is one of the easiest decisions in the history of decisions. Even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with no fees or minimums on checking and savings Even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast. And with no fees or minimums on checking and savings accounts. Is it even a decision that's is it even a decision? Thatll banking reimagined. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital one.com/bank capital one and a member c capital one dot com slash bank, capital 1NA member FDIC. Hey, this is is Jad. Radiolab is supported by better Radio Lab is supported by help. Online therapy going to therapy doesn't mean something's wrong with online therapy. Going to therapy doesn't mean something's wrong with you. It means you recognize that all humans have emotions and we need to learn to control It means you recognize that all humans have emotions and we need to learn to control them. Not avoid not avoid them. Betterhelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat sessions. So you don't have to be on camera if you don't want So you don't have to be on camera if you don't want to. It's affordable and you can be matched with a therapist in under forty eight hours. And listeners get ten percent off their first month at betterhelp dot That's better. H E L HELP dot com slash Radiolab lab. Hey, it's it's less. Radiolab is supported by Radio lab is supported by NerdWallet. When was the last time you paused to dream big, not big, like your favorite team, making the playoffs, or finally mastering that sourdough recipe, like really big enter NerdWallet's smart money podcast, whatever you're dreaming of NerdWallet smart money podcasts has the financial advice you need to finally get was the last time you paused to dream big? Not big like your favorite team making the playoffs or finally mastering that sourdough recipe like really big. Enter NerdWallet Smart Money podcast. Whatever you're dreaming of, NerdWallet Smart Money podcast has the financial advice you need to finally get there. Get ahead and stay ahead of your finances with weekly nerdy wisdom from money experts, Sean piles, and Liz Weston find NerdWallet's smart money Get ahead and stay ahead of your finances with weekly nerdy wisdom from money experts Sean Piles and Liz Weston. Find NerdWallet smart money podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Next slide comes to us from editors, Soren Wheeler and Alex Mason. Alright. Mason, you there? Yeah. I'm here. Did you have, like, a hot start that you had in your head, or should I just kinda get us kicked? I I mean, I have some stuff that I want, Lesofin Lulu, to watch. Oh, okay. That'll be But you can go but go. Let's go. Ready. Ready. Ready. Okay. Yeah. So So I guess I'd say that this one is about the flop as a lie, told through the physical movement of bodies. On the basketball court. Okay. Do you guys even know what a flop is in basketball? Flop. No. I So you want a school I'm Alex, wanna school? I'm Alex. Yeah. Let's just, like, show you. Let's add space for a moment. What were you even talking about? So this is a clip of Marcus Smart Guard for the Boston Celtics. He comes to the basket for rebound and No. Oh, man. That was extreme. He seems to, like, bounce off the Atlanta player. Does this flailing silhouette out of bounds? Yeah. It's like he's he decided to do high jump in the middle of a game or something. Yeah. So that's a flop. It's when there wasn't a foul or sometimes any contact at all, but the player falls and flails dramatically to try and get the ref to think there was a foul. Oh. Yeah. It's like a putting on the show. Like, oh, wow. He got you know, like, oh, my god. He pushed me over. I feel like I know of this in soccer, but I didn't know that it was a thingy mess. No. It's a thing for in basketball too, for sure. It always has me. Yeah. But right around two thousand twelve or so, thatll at our national television big boy. It seemed to be sweeping the NBA like some kind of play. I was kidding. think we got flocking as a major issue, and we're going to pickboard at that time. Oh my. This is theatrical right here, was it? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I forgot. I gotta sell it. The flops were just getting, like, specialty flagrant and people were tired of seeing thatll is not a plus in this game. In part because it looks stupid, but also just ruins because people thought it was bad for the game. You know, it's not fair. Thatll it's disgusting, cheating. You would punish. You would like to punish the flowers, and it needed to be stopped. I I would like to eliminate it from the game game game. But then, along came a guy named. Are you serious? Are you really that clueless? Mark Cuban. What the hell is that? You you don't ever use facts. You don't ever use substitute. The guy from Shark Tank. And he's desperate to put an end to the madness. And he also happens to be billionaire and owns the Dallas Mavericks? Yes. Yeah. Well, I have to say in my head, I imagined like a limo rolling up on your will. I have to say in my head, I imagine like a limo rolling up on your lab. No. Mark Cuban just emailed me. That's how it started. So this is Peter Wayne. He's a biomechanics researcher at southern methodist University. So you just opened your email one day, and it was just like Mark Cube. And what one evening. I was like, oh, and I showed it to my I was like, oh, and I showed it to my wife. Is she think this is really hard? And she said, yeah, I think it is. You should probably answer that. That's thing. And basically, he says, look, this flopping stuff is getting out of control. He was concerned about the integrity of the game. You know, we got all these big huge guys that are sort of falling over all the time and flailing. And so I'm gonna throw you a bunch of money and you are gonna prove scientifically that these guys are flopping. So, sadly, since I am a Shark Tank fan, I I've never met Mark Cuban Thatll Ken Clark. He was at the time, he was graduate student in Peter's lab. And so he and Peter got together and thought about it and they're like, alright. This will be fun. We have the equipment. We have the tools. So let's let's do it. Absolutely. Alright. So so what did you do? We crashed into each other over and over and over again. We played human billards. Yeah. Exactly. The idea was if they could figure out what a normal non floppy collision looked like, well, then they could spot when something fishy was happening. So we set up big crash pads and in the lab. They bring people in. They put, like, the little sensor things on them. We have a motion capture system. They got the cameras. And just have people run into each other. Well, to do thatll, max max max in a whole variety of ways. Subjects Of different sizes go, little guy runs into a big guy with of different sizes, a little guy runs into a big guy. With different incoming velocities, you try it really fast. Now you go really slow or you just push on them. But what are you doing today? Oh, we're just putting on some, you know, video game suits and running into each other the whole day. Yeah. They even built a metal and plastic person. They called it They called it Gus. Gus was he was just a galvanized structure with a piece of plywood in the middle. To, like, knock him over. I wanted to put a San Antonio Spurs jersey on Gus. But the but the members of the crew said no, that's pushing it too far. So So they do all these tests and here's what they come up with guys falling on their butts all the They do all these tests and here's what they come up with. Guys falling on their butts all time. That's not actually a reliable sign of a flop at the time, that's not actually a reliable sign of a flop at all. If a player has their feet planted and their weight, on their heels or whatever. It doesn't take much force to knock them off. Right. But it's not much. It's not much at all. If they don't move their feet, bam over they go. Yeah. Absolutely. Huh. So that's going to actually happen a lot in the, in the natural course of a game, but the thing you need to watch according to Peter and Ken is the arm, all of So that's gonna actually happen a lot in the in the natural course of a game. But the thing you need to watch according to Peter and Ken is the arm. All of the excessive upper body mode histrionics. Yeah. The histrionics, really. The natural reaction when you're hit and falling backwards is for you to take your arms and reach backwards to brace for impact. And so if a player's flailing with their arms above their head all crazy. Nine times out of ten. That's probably a flop. They're putting on a show. Problem is even that doesn't really help much because a guy could actually get fouled and sort of flail his arms just to, like, draw attention to it. Right. So so they write this whole report up. They even made like a video and they give it back to Mark Cuban. And this was not what Mark Cuban wanted to hear. He was hoping for more something more concrete and actionable to sort of stamp out this epidemic of faking, but I, you know, we can't change the science. So the whole experiment was kind of a flop. Well, I I mean, yeah, maybe little bit. But the the interesting thing was that Peter and Ken told us that a scientific hard science spot to flop thing actually might be possible in the not too distant future. It's not far fetched to think that we could have instantaneous velocity on all ten players on a basketball court at any given time. And all you would need is just like a tiny little bit of of math. You know their mass. You know mass velocity. You know instantaneous momentum. You go off some basic assumptions that momentum in a collision is gonna be CONSERVE, then you just have computers that are sort of tracking and crunching all those numbers based on the sizes and the velocities incoming and outgoing point. And if there's more momentum coming out of that than going in, you just send a little signal down to the ref right there on the court. Beep beep, You know, bell goes off and arrest earpiece and says, Hey, that that was a Vel goes off in the rest. Earpiece and says, hey, that that was a flunk. Just like a a big old egg. Thatll was fake. Like Yeah. Then they just put it on a big screen. Right? Yeah. Like, a family feud when you get it wrong. To think that someone like mark Cuban would spend his infinite amount of dollars to find out the core cause of flopping instead of why his team can't win a championship, again seems to be a bit of a waste of think that someone like Mark Cuban would spend his infinite amount of dollars, to find out the poor cause of flopping instead of why his team can't win a championship again. Seems to be bit of a waste of money, don't you think? Okay. So after talking to Peter and Ken about what they did, we were kinda letting ourselves imagine thatll least in theory of game -- Actually, without flop. Or this is Mark tube. And so we decided to put this idea in front of my friend, Tyler Tynes, he's a sports writer at So we decided to put this idea in front of my dredged, Tyler Tines. He's a sports writer at GQ, and I was like, Tyler, like, thatll do you think? I don't think anyone in this country, if they have any sense about themselves, would look at you in your face, sit down and tell you they enjoy flopping. But Flopping is part of the game has always been part of the game. And he was kind of squishy on this. Well, I think the thing in where I come from is that flopping by nature is sucker shit. It is naturally detestable. So he hates flops. But at the same time, part of the beauty of the game for him is just letting players play it. However they're going to play they're gonna play it. And so the issue actually isn't with the players. The issue is with the league that incentivizes this type of entertainment. So Trey Young or Treymont Green or Mark is smart, flails a bit differently than maybe some of our heroes of old. The reality here is that it makes money when you flop. The teams are better if you flop and you can get a three point shot. We haven't incentivize sports in America to be like win win win win by any means necessary. But Flopping is by any means necessary. And so Is the core of this actually the players? Well, but if if you could decide whether the system is gonna incentivize a flop or not, you could you could change the system. So it doesn't incentivize so it doesn't incentivize it. Am I I'm just kinda curious, like, would you rather see a game with no flopping? No. And actually, we heard the same thing. No. It it just doesn't doesn't feel right to me. You know, having grown up playing you know, haven't grown up playing basketball. From both Peter Wayne and Ken Clark? No. I don't think so. toKaitlin my mind. I don't don't I don't like adding police officers to the sports that I watch. You know what I mean? Like, we have changed how we talk about basketball. And flop being in the policing of flop being is a part of that where The way like, how you identify who a basketball fan is now has changed. Who enjoys basketball? Who runs these teams? Who now are the presidents of these front offices. These are white kids who wanted to be Michael Jordan and Alan Iverson who never could and now they have cultural cache and the power to say thatll is important within our athletics. And it is how we get to something is serious and non serious is flopping. Where it should be just a part of the art form. It should just be fun. But instead, it's become police. Now you're a bad player if you flop. Now you don't care about the art of basketball if you flop. Now even for someone like me, I'm calling you people out. They name because they thatll. Right? It's it's not the trueness of how we believe basketball is supposed to be played. And so to me least, the issue is why don't you just care if these boys are playing basketball or not? I hear hear you. It's interesting because when came when we started when we started working on this story, my feeling about flopping was pretty much centered around James Harden. Notorious flopper and he would look so smug about it and it would just grind my gears and I I would just be so incense by it. So when we started working on this, it was really a moment for me to sit and think about, like, what kind of basketball game I actually want And so I arrive at this place where I'm like, flopping just feels like it's just part of the theater and the drama of, like, what makes watching a game so exhilarating. Watching James Harden -- Oh my god. -- figure out how to be an insurance salesman with these flocks, it was kind of magical because you knew he was going into the game and had no care about the rules of the game and that level of anarchy, that level of just self assuredness and that you were going to break the game in some respects. Thatll was cool. And so my thing is that I don't care if you flop as part of how you are gonna get over in this game. I gonna say our respect thing, though. He's grabbing his head. God for flop. Go ahead. Get his head. Come on. Leave it throwing up his feet, his legs forward, and loses his balance. Thatll was a flagrant flop. Oh, you gotta follow. You kidding me. He went over. Hello? Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hi. Everybody's here. Next producer, Matt Kilsey, and contributing editor, Heather Rad. Yeah. So what what do you guys have? I actually feel like this is gonna be close to Lulu's heart. I've been thinking about Lulu's whole time. Really? It's about a rag tag group of women making their way in the world today. I already hate it. I don't know. I hate it. But now it's just tough. Alright. So so we're gonna take you back to two thousand one. To a group of rag tag and women. Total rag tag. One of the things Kate. Kate Darmody Burke. How do you want me to how do you want? Ashley. I'll go Ashley Gersick Murphy. I'm Shelby co-pack and Shelby Clopak. And Shelby. Oh, gosh. I screwed that up. Okay. So Kate, Ashley, Shelby, Kate Ashley Shelby. And all three of them were La Crosse players. Yeah. Okay. So La Crosse, it's like sticks with little nets. You throw a ball around. Uh-huh. Okay. All of them have finished high school, and they all wanted to play across in college. But, you know, they weren't gonna play at, like, -- Right. -- across nations. University of Virginia or top of the mountain once again, Maryland. University of Maryland. He's your national champion. These very storied programs. They weren't getting recruited by these top schools. They they findFrom figured they would just, like, play at some small school, stay somewhere in home. Yep. We'll so insert Kelly Amante Hiller. You could call the miaham of women's lacrosse, two time player of the year. National champion at Maryland. She came to one of my soccer games. She was going around the East Coast trying to recruit women to come play for her at Northwestern University. But the problem was NorthWestern didn't even actually have a team. Yeah, because Northwestern it's in the heart of the Midwest, just outside of Because Northwestern, it's in the heart of Midwest just outside of Chicago. And back then, lacrosse was not a Midwest sport. It was an East Coast, like, Mid Atlantic thing. But Northwestern had hired this, like, first time head coach to basically build a program from scratch. She was, like, twenty six. Well, you're like little kid. But when she went recruiting, she would ask these girls point blank. Do you wanna be a national champion? And we're sort of like I mean, what? I remember giggling and laughing, but there was no smile on her face. I thought this lady is crazy slash I love her. So she managed to get a team together. Just picture a lot of really intense short East Coast ladies, making their way to the Midwest. She was pulling people from everywhere. She She got these twins who she found on the street just jogging. Asked them if They wanted to play the wanted to play lacrosse. They thought lacrosse was a town in Wisconsin. They don't even have a practice field. They practice on the flake football field. But early on, just them down and said to him. We will be national champions, and we need everybody to buy in. You know, I say jump, you say how high? She had a boxing and doing yoga, and meditating. They did these things called affirmations. They're close. We would go around and tell each other. Positive things about us, you know, oh, you're so fast, Jenny. Your shot is so strong, Ashley. And Kate told us. We drank the cool aid. She told us we could do anything, and we've really just believed her. And so, that year, this group of mostly freshmen Hit the field and they lost a lot of games. They go five and ten. Five and ten, five wins, ten loss. Five wins, ten wins, ten wins. Yes. It's pretty bad. Their second year, they go eight and eight. Oh. Third year, they go fifteen and three. Oh, which means they made it to the playoffs. But they ultimately lost in the quarters to UVA. I went to UVA, so lack of a go, who's But then their senior year they go undefeated. Oh. And they actually make it to the National Championship Game where they have to play UVA again. Are you building up a mighty ducks here? But then they get to the finals -- whack. -- and blow it? Quack. Like is that Then I don't know. No. They win. Northwestern University wildcats. We should they went. Like, when the championship, the bench clears. It's the first time in a championship game and national title winners. They're, like, hugging, crying, jumping, laughing. I mean, it was the most incredible you know, I now have two children and that's pretty incredible. But truthfully, the most incredible experience of my life. We went nuts, and then I will never forget being in the locker room. And Kelly talking about just how proud she was, and then we get to go to the White House. Which is where the story sort of flips. July thousand five, they go to DC, they get all dressed up, and they go to the White House. It smelled and felt distinguished, you know. It's the it's the White House. Get to see Lincoln's bedroom, they walk Around the rose garden and then they get ushered into this room where in the corner, the rose garden, and then they get ushered into this room where in the corner. There's almost stadium seating kind of bleachers. So the whole team goes over and takes their place. And then he in walks. W. Bush, he's got on a suit and tie comes over, congratulates the George Epi Bush. He's got on a student tie. He comes over, congratulates the team. They give him a couple of cross sticks. And then some photographer says, okay, everyone look up here. 321. Stop. step. A few days later, Shelby gets a call on her cell phone, few days later, Shelby gets a call on her cell phone. But I didn't recognize the phone number, and I picked it up, and it happened to be some reporter, I don't really recall from where. And then she was asking me, you know, just different questions about winning a championship and going to the White House, and then all of a sudden, it took a turn because she said something of Did anyone say anything about your foot attire? I said, excuse me. In the reported one on the day, Well, in the White House photo, you were clearly wearing flip flops. Then that could be considered disrespectful or inappropriate. And I'm like, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. I'm sorry. I have to go. She hangs up. And she's like, oh god. Because she wasn't the only one who was wearing flip flops thatll day. No. Kate was one of them. My cell phone starts ringing at five in the morning. It was a reporter asking her better flip flops. She says a day later. The storing broke. For Susan, Cabela, the new essay today, White House flip flops, thatll. NBC, White House Footwear fans flip flop, kerfuffle. ESPN and PR. CBS Hey, guys. Hey, good morning to all of you. Kate and Shelby, we're on the Today show. You don't wear flip flops to meet the president of the United States. And their mothers, their mothers on the show, the couch, and the ass. Shoe expert. You know, I would have shown something that was closed toe. We're saying that we should have been wearing a full heeled closed toe shoe. To put White House on the don't let's look at them down. All because of this photo where a few young women are wearing flip flops. Wait. Actually, can you show me the picture? Yeah. Hang on. Or maybe just maybe Google. Yeah. Hold on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang Hang on. Hang on. on. on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang picture. It's like such a generic photo of photo of the president holding two lacrosse on. It's like such generic photo op photo of the president holding two, lacrosse sticks, and then all these women, but look at their feet, lot of. But it's just so it's just so nothing. Oh, is it lot of? Is it really nothing? Yeah. It seems you can later, you guys as humans, Thatll, and or do you actually think it matters? Really? What do you mean? It matters in what sense? Well, with with Telju just being like, who cares? Like I don't I don't think it thatll. Like, I don't think they should have been shamed for wearing flip flops at the White House. But I think I think it very much matters that these things happen because it tells us something about us. Yeah. And so to that point, we ended up calling up oh, Alexis back. I'm back. Oh, Alexis back. Hi. This presidential historian Alexis Co. Because as we kept reporting in the story and trying to answer Lati's question, why does this matter? We kept coming back to the scene of the crime. The White house. If we just go back, let's go back to like the early, like the formation of the white we just go back, let's go back to, like, the early, like, the formation of White House. When Washington first took office, the White House was an idea. That they would get to. So at first when Washington was he lived in New York. And then in Philadelphia, but he knew that there needed to be permanent residence for the president. Presidential house as they houses, they would call it. And his big thing was whatever they end up building. There can be no markings of monarchical rule. Like, no gilded doors in a big gateway. He was like, I'm was like, I missed omnipresent. Right. It's not a presidential palace. Because the idea is that the the government democracy is supposed to be of the people, by the people, for the people. But Washington was in a tricky situation because he liked the finer things in life. He likes some choice fabrics plus suits, purple. Carriages. The example Alexis gave us that's like excellent for this very thing is for his inauguration. He orders a simple home spun brown suit. But if you look down at his shoes, he's wearing diamond. What? Shoes with diamonds on the black. She's wearing diamond buckle. Wow. And so under Washington, what we ultimately end up with for a president's home is definitely not a palace, but it's also, I mean, it's a, it's a mansion when it was so under Washington, what we ultimately end up with for a president's home is definitely not a palace, but it's also I mean, it's a mansion. When it was built, it was the biggest house in all of DC. It's like a conflicted, confused face. All the way through. Mhmm. You know, the White House is built by enslaved people. The the first handful of presidents besides Adams are all slave owners. They're like fancy southerners who are trying to, like, figure out how to also be Democratic, which is like, these are like the primordial problems of American democracy. Like who's in, who gets to be inside of Like, who's in who gets to be inside of it and who's not inside of it? It's like all the stuff that's kind of like baked into the the formation of the country is also baked into the formation of the White House. And so, this is where it gets kind of fascinating because, for example, both the House and the Senate have rules for dress code. Like, they have dress codes. They have rules for decorum. Like, the White House doesn't have anything that's codified. Interesting. And so thatll the White House becomes is this space wherein each administration they can sort of dictate what the White House ought to be and kind of, like, demonstrate what they think our country should be. You know, it's played out in the Christmas, like, what Christmas trees, the first lady chooses. And -- That's how -- you know, I was immediate, like, thinking about that. Melania's Yeah. And there's, like, you know, George Bush. Banned BlueJeans in the White House, but Obama would let staff workers work without their suit jackets on. Yeah. Like, all these questions of formality and taste are really questions about, like, what is the White House? And in some sense, like, who is America? And they'll cross players when they flocked onto the floor of the White House, they were kind of unwittingly walking right into the middle of this question. You know, there wasn't a set of rules where it felt like we were doing something wrong. That's Kate again. I had no idea until my brother was the one that yelled at me. I mean, they they thought they were wearing nice shoes. Yeah. You know, the more I reflect on it. Shelby again. I wonder if anyone would have even thought twice about what men's team wore on their feet. And I think one of my favorite things about this whole thing is that when these women went on the Today show, When they were basically asked to appear on national television to apologize for having worn flip flops to the White House, This rag tag group of women who had won this national championship against all odds, they walked up onto the stage at NBC's Studio 1A in New York City wearing matching flip flops. At any point when you got to the White House, did you look around and say, oh, Maybe this is a little inappropriate. Not at all. No. No. And that was you did that on purpose. That was sort of, like, Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. They asked me what makes a champion, let me sell you put up for asked me. Now, what makes a champion? Let me tell you. Listen tall, put up a fight. No fear. That's what she'll be cheese look like super mama ears. Make them look twice. That's right. That's what she peeking look like. Alright. Okay. So next up, we are going to a place where flip flops are not only allowed, they are Celebrated. Okay. The pool. Fun. Fun is not exactly the word I used to describe this story. It's a it's kinda destroy even ethical conundrum. That's how I would put it. And it involves an Olympian, a global pandemic and because I wrote them into it, our colleague David Gabel. Oh, and a flop up too. Alright. Lot of calls me. And he said, have you ever heard of Greg Lou Gayness? And I said, I'm a game man who's sixty four. Of course, I've heard of him. Okay. Okay. So we're talking about the 1988 Olympics in So We're talking about the nineteen eighty eight Olympics in Seoul. Welcome to day four of our coverage from South Korea. Greg Luganis is both a platform and SpringBoard diver. And at the prior Olympics, the gold medaled in both. No diver has ever won back to back gold, Greg Luganis, is expect to do that here on Seoul. Going into the nineteen eighty eight Olympic Games, I was the favorite. That's great. And then in the prelims, fortunately, it was prelims. Something Greg never expected to happen. Happened. Yeah. We're the diving venue. Jam show swimming pool. Preliminary to the man's three meter springboard. Greg has done eight dives. He steps up to the board for his ninth dive. Wait. I feel like I did a visual. What does he look like? Then. Oh my gosh. He's like Hollywood handsome, wavy, dark hair, fit body like the Calvin Klein ads in Times Square. And you can see his concentration. Like, the whole world falls away, but the whole world is actually watching him. And then I got set. Takes three steps. Jumped up off the board about six feet up in the air. Swings his legs over his head, starts a back flip, goes around once, twice, and then I heard this big hollow thread. And they go crashing into the water. Oh god. You see people sitting in the sands of their hands or over their mouths in shock. I was thinking, what the hell is that? You know? And then I realized that was my head. Now That would go back and look at it as slow go back and look at it. It's so much what happened. Greg did not get his weight far enough over the end of the board. Watch his hips in relation to his heels. Right there, his weight is too far back. Kind of amazingly he just pops up out of the water. Yeah. And he swims to the edge of the pool. I Made my way over to my coach, Ron O'Brien my way over to my coach, Ron O'Brien. And The coach is pushing the blood up into his dark hair, so that the blood running down his neck isn't showing. Turns out he split open his scalp. At the back of his head. So he walks away from the pool, gets brought back into a training room. Strong medical staff was there. And they stitch him up. Four temporary The first emotion that I felt was I was embarrassed know, and of course the world's watching, first emotion that I thought was I was embarrassed. You know, and of course, the world's watching. But there was one thing the world didn't see And and that's actually what drew me to this story because inside this very public this very public flop was a secret that Greg wouldn't actually reveal until years later. You hit your head and there may have been water. Why were you terrified? Because Because Ron O'Brien and myself, we're one of the few people in the stands that, that knew that I was HIV positive O'Brien and myself were one of the few people in the stands that knew that I was HIV positive. A man considered to be the greatest diver in Olympic history has announced today that he has aids. So when Greg finally reveals his status to the world in nineteen ninety five, it was huge. Please welcome Greg McGaughnessy. He was on all the shows he was on. bro. Greg has come forward. Sally, Jesse Rafael. He has PUBLICIZING PAST. Reporter: AND IMEASE INTERVIEWS THE SAME QUESTIONS OR KIND OF QUESTIONS KEEP COMING UP. HOW WOULD A SMART like you practice unsafe sex. On Larry King? King? I I am not following I'm not following. How'd you get AIDS? And then once you knew you had it and you were going to the Olympics, Barbara Walters asked, why didn't you tell anybody? I didn't anticipate hitting my head on the board. I didn't anticipate, you know, blood. Thatll something that you don't I didn't think about at the time. But you didn't tell the Olympic committee. You didn't tell anyone. I was encouraged not to. Greg told Barbara that he had told his coach but almost nobody else because Like, if he was if he was HIV positive, he he wasn't allowed at the country, that would have been a he probably would have been barred from the Olympics. He probably would have Exactly. He was in Seoul, but he for he had disclosed his status, he wouldn't have been allowed. Yep. Wow. There was a list of countries that had it announced you may not enter the country if you test HIV positive. Right? And if he had announced it while he's there, he would have been sent home immediately. But Barbara Walters just kept asking him. When you hit your head and there was blood perhaps in that water, what did you think? Thatll where I became paralyzed with fear because I watched that going stop beating this guy up for 10 minutes of his I watched that going stop beating this guy up for ten minutes of his life. Yeah. I mean, it it it it it is hard to watch And and I think even then, like, people mostly knew that HIV couldn't even be transmitted that way. Like, the pool was so big, the water was chlorinated. You know, so so it does there's part of it that does feel like it's just like everyone gang up on the gay guy. Mhmm. But but there is I don't know. There is one part of it that feels like a fair question to There is one part of it thatll feels like a fair question to me. And that's like when I think about the doctor, right? The guy who was stitching up Greg's head, he wasn't wearing latex gloves. And so he was stitching him up. Like, if he had pricked his finger with that needle, he he could have contracted HIV. To to me thatll moment, that That is very morally complicated. Yeah. One of my fears was, you know, well, what is my responsibility knowing that I made HIV positive? Yeah. You know, was that like a like, was that like a like a like a like a No. Like, it just did. It's like, what what do I do? What's what's the next right step? Did you know the doctor wasn't wearing gloves? III didn't see it. I had my face down and I didn't have eyes on the top of my I had my face down and I didn't have eyes on the top of my head. And and that's just it. You don't know what you don't know. You're dealing with this situation in that moment. Thatll is your like, just just walk me through your your internal model on? Well, you know, the the thing is I mean, one thing that I learned just through practice through my years and years and years of performing is always asking myself, what do I have control of? Usually not much. Okay. There were no latex gloves. Okay? That's not in my control. And so it's it's basically letting it go. After we talked to Greg, I I just I I kept thinking, like, he's he's right. There's nothing he could have done about the accident. Nothing he could have done about the doctor not wearing gloves. But he did keep thinking like he did have control over whether or not he told the guy. Yeah. But you're making it sound so simple. Put yourself in his shoes. Put yourself in his speedo and think about what just happened all that's at stake. Right. You know, when he came out as HIV positive and gay, I'm relieved and feeling like I'm not the only one who's thinking about this kind of thing. I think me and positive people around the world because I tested positive in seven a little earlier than he did. And I got this job to Singapore to Disneyland, and I needed this job really badly. And I was very familiar with that list of countries that you're forbidden to enter. And Japan is on there too. Coming into Narita Airport, outside toKaitlin this very formal, very polite English, but Japanese, Japanese thought kind of sign. It says, hello. If you are HIV positive, please step over here and if you are HIV positive, please step over here and register And I remember walking under that going. You have gotta be kidding me. I am not saying a word. So when when I'm hearing lots of go back about what were you thinking at the moment? Well, you think about that moment every day of I'm in the kitchen and I'm having dinner with friends and I cut myself and what do I do? I'm not gonna announce to everyone I'm HIV positive, but I'm gonna make sure I clean it up, run it under water, get it bandaged up. And have my heart stop pounding. So to zoom in on, did you make the right choice in that moment when you're getting stitched up? Is an understandable question. But, I mean, think about all the secrets you gotta keep because you have to keep them. The part of that that I, like Yeah. That I, like, really hadn't considered was this feeling that it's like this one moment. However, how you know, highly public it was. It was just like one moment in a string of so many moments like this. Yeah. So I guess to end the story of this moment, thatll happened next? They checked him over. Okay. So Greg finishes getting stitched up and he goes to talk to his coach. He said, you know, you can pack up. You don't have to get back on the board. We could just go home. But But I was in fifth was in fifth place. I turned to my coach and, you know, said that we've worked too long and hard. He said, okay. They're not gonna go home. They're gonna keep going. He will continue in the competition. So he gets back on the board. Has two dives remain I heard an audible gasp from the audience. I remember watching it, and I just held my breath for you to take that next dive. Yeah. Yeah. Because you didn't know it was gonna happen. Right? Oh. I didn't know it was gonna happen either. But it's the Olympic Games. First dive it. It was the highest growing dive of the Olympic Games. It does the next Does the next dive. What? And he's going to the finals. Frank. Next night in the finals, He wins gold in the springboard, and then Well, final dive of his competition. He's up for gold on the platform. His last chance A dive takes less than three seconds. Mugena's wins his second gold medal of these Olympics. Get up buddy. Becoming the first man to win both the platform and the SpringBoard Competition, and two Alembic Danvers. Coming up, two more flops, one into the water, and one out of it. Hey, this is this is Jad. Radiolab is supported by capital one, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit is another Radiolab is supported by Capital One, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit is another reason banking with capital. 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But I wished I had, ah, the flop that got I wished I had. Oh, the flop that got away? Exactly. Alright, Rachel. Please explain. Okay. So last summer, I was in Utah with a friend and it was just brutally hot. It was so hot that we were in a parking lot and the temperature read hundred and fourteen degrees. That is my friend who I was with. Her name is Tamar. And tomorrow being tomorrow, she went on to Google and found a public pool for us to go to. So we drove a few towns over, put on our bathing suits and walk out on the deck. Then it's clearly, like, the place to be on a day, like, today. Cool noodles lapping the water and, like, all this last there. And the centerpiece of it all was the diving board. Now, tomorrow is like immediately get These are my people, the people at the diving board. She leaves me behind and gets in line with a range of six year olds to twelve year old, she got onto the highest diving board and jumped. And she just looked so happy, so perfectly carefree. But that's not how I felt at all. Why? Growing up. I just was B one in my family who is heaviest and in my friends who was the I just was the one in my family who was the heaviest and my friends who was heaviest. And so as I grew up, the pool was where I was at my most vulnerable. Like, there wasn't any hiding from clothes. And so I kinda trained myself to be as small as I possibly could at the pool. So that day in Utah, I'm at a crowded pool of strangers, and I'm like, how can I get myself in that pool as fast as possible but also like as quietly as possible? I'm, like, looking at the pool, searching for the corner furthest away from the eyes of the diving board. Like, the the cool lifeguards, they were off to the left. I got, like, stay from them. Meanwhile, I was twenty five years old. Yeah. I'm like, it's a great person. Like, I should not be strategizing away from the the lifeguard in the it had, but that's where we were that day. And then I see that there's like awkward kids in the corner. So I had their way. I looked both ways to make sure no one's watching me. And then slowly carefully. Like, I'm putting a potato into a pot of boiling water. I slink my body into the pool. So it's just disappeared. Totally. You this entire time reach, just so you know, we're just kind of like bathing with all of your bodies, submerged, except for your shoulders and your entire time reached just so you know. We're just kind of like bathing with all of your body submerged except for your shoulders and your head. It's like an alligator. You look kind of like just Not bad, but just let down. Mhmm. I feel like almost you've sat down in a way. And she was right. Like, I felt defeated -- Yeah. -- like a kid who got bullied by myself. Yeah. That's not good. It wasn't good. So so that was what happened back in July. And then this flop show comes along and pretty much the minute we get this prompt. I turned on YouTube and started binging videos. Our eighth annual pedestrian belly flop comedy. Of belly flops. And I was spending hours doing this. That was postcard belly flubbing. I will show you how to do It from any it from any heights. So I watch people who are, like, giving tutorials. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Oslo Norway World Championship of Dudds. I learned that the Norwegians have a national orked dedicated to the belly flap. I -- -- became starfish. Wow. Obsessed. With the belly flap. And I didn't even know why. Like, I'm staring at these videos of belly flaps. The way that you stare at your fridge when you're really hungry and you don't even know what you need to eat. But then I watched this one video. It's these manories that jump out of the water. And then they like kind of Stillman then they plop down like a pancake. The highway. The bigger, the bang, big of the bang. These manories and their belly flops. They are the opposite of me in that pool last summer. And watching them, I was like, I want someone to teach me to do Thatll Oh, right after you fell. Okay. And so Okay. Let's go change. We'll see you in a minute. Annie McEwen and I. You never know where Life will take you. Drive up to Boston and belly flop with the ultimate belly flobber. I'm I'm Chris Miller. I'm I'm Lulu Miller's father, and I think that's why I'm here. But it is true that I have been belly flopping for about seventy years. As I know you guys were like, we need I know, you guys were like, when you someone. And I was like, I've got a real b lister. Like, he's got no plans, and it's one of his own address. I don't even need my hotel. So the three of us meet up at a hotel the three of us meet up at a hotel pool. We test the water Oh, I'm sure it's gonna be, you know, it's a bath. We're out in the deck. And even though it was November, the pool was empty, like no one was there. I still felt that feeling from the summer lurking. I've been afraid to, like, even try. But honestly, the minute that feeling bubbled up for me. Lulu, your dad was like You want to have demonstration first. Can you demonstrate to start? Alright. It's just a matter of starting to dive but not arching. And he just kind of winging his Oh my god. His body And it just is it's dazzling. That kind of looked awful. And then it was my turn. Oh god. Am I gonna oh, this feels like big leaves? So I kinda stand like a plank with my feet at the edge of the pool and the deep end. Chris is coaching me from inside the pool. You don't have to control anything on your body. You just do it. And then I kind of surrender to gravitydefying then just let my head beyond. Oh my god. Get carried down. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. And the first thing I heard when I popped my head out of the water was Chris cheering me on. And so there was this weird tension between, like, pure pride and That's my head a little bit pain. You not get like a smack in the head. You know, there's always a price for pleasure. But soon the pleasure of the flop. Outweighed the pain of it. And so I just kept laughing. Okay. Yeah. Alright. How many times did you belly for? I would say least, like, fifteen to twenty. Does your body feel like, great. My body feels like it's been smacked. Yep. By the one giant you know, and that means you're doing it right. Every time I would emerge being like, that was the most painful thing that's ever happened. But your chest has got a little red. There you go. Try again. But we do it again. And again, and again, but now you can do this with running. I understand less and less. Meanwhile, Annie standing on the on the side being like, I have no idea what's going on. But it didn't matter because it felt like I was making up for all the years. I didn't get in the pool that way. And I was feeling freer. Eventually, I became one with the flop. And Chris and I took on the pool just like the manta rays. Should we do a double flop? Okay. 123. And when I emerged from that last flop, I felt at least in that moment, triumph. But also the worst headache I've ever had in my life. Oh, god. Yeah. I think there's gotta be a PSA announcement at some point. My entire front of my body is popped blood vessels. Like, my legs are still blue. Oh my god. Yeah. Oh my god. I, like, called my doc. The other day, and I had to, like, have the most shameful intro on the phone to be, like so I was, like, repeatedly belly flopping on Monday night. And I I just wanna know, like, do you think I need to come in for a scan? But I think it's okay. She thinks it's fine. And I just need to take it easy the next Tuesday. Alright. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you, Dad. I think. And for our final flop, I'm gonna flop us right on out of the water. On the land, it is time. What does that mean? It it is time to look at a fish flapping around awkwardly on land. A fish flop. Okay. Okay? Alright. So you know this is I don't I don't think I've ever actually seen this before. Really? No. I don't think I've seen that. Okay. Well, allow me to conjure it for you. Mhmm. Picture a beautiful scaled creature lying on a dock trying to move heaving up, bumping down. And then heaving up? I'm bumping down. Getting nowhere. You know? An elastic gas. Kind of thing. Exactly. Mhmm. And I think since the first time I saw it, it's just been burned into my brain as the saddest, most pathetic movement in nature. However, a few weeks ago I met someone who watches fish flopping. Almost every day. And she completely reframed how I see it. My name is Rachel Zack and I'm a senior aquarist on the special exhibits team at Shedd name is Rachel Zack, and I'm a senior acquirest on the special exhibits team at Chatequarium. Oh, hello, thatll. turn So Rachel walked me around all these massive tanks of clown fish and sharks. And I'll show you the ribbon eos. C dragons and puffer findFrom. Frog. And first of all, she explained that every species of fish has its own little distinctive flop. That's just the last thing. Would an eeled flop? Or would it just like wriggle like a snake. They fly. And the thing that really holds them together is that none of them None of these flops are what she would call pathetic. In fact, when she sees a fish flop, she thinks that's an awesome behavior. That's exactly what they're supposed to do. It's part of how they survive. Slopping is Effective, like a fish that you drop on a peer flops enough to make its way to the end of the pier Like, a fish that you drop on a pier flops enough to make its way to the end of the pier. Mean, there's an achievement there. So there's a real there's there's technique, there's just a ton of power It's just flailing. Right? Like, how much technique is there? Well, the voice you just heard is Alice Gibbs, a biologist at Northern Arizona University. Who for the last decade has been filming, fish, flopping on desks in her lap. Okay. Let me talk about flops. Yeah. She filmed all different kinds of species. And when she played the videos back in slow mo and watched what's really going on inside that motion, She saw that the fish is doing something that seems impossible. Have you ever watched somebody dribble a basketball and they stir it flat on the ground and they tap it just gently. And if you tap it and tap it and tap it, you can start the ball bouncing up and down and bigger and bigger and if you tap it and tap it and tap it, you can start the ball bouncing up and down in bigger and bigger and bigger arcs. So the fish somehow bounces the fish somehow bounces itself. And at a certain point, they kinda jerk up onto their thatll. Problem was perpendicular to the ground at this perpendicular to the ground at this point. And then they launch forward often into the water. Wow. Fish didn't learn to flop because we dropped them on decks. Right? Fish learned to flop for many different reasons. Grunion, which is a kind of fish, actually flops out of the water for their baby's sakes. So they'll like flop up onto the sand lay eggs, so underwater creatures can't get them, and then flop back down into the water. They're rock stars. Or they're they're other fish, killyfish. Thatll flop because they live in these tiny little pools and sometimes there might only be one in a pool. And the males they need to find females to breed with. They'll just kinda a little flop, like ten times the length of their body into another pool. In a human centered world, when people talk about I swapped down on the couch or something, seems to imply maybe an uncoordinated movement, but then is followed by no movement at all. Yeah. Right? Like, it sort of implies that you've hit a a dead end. Yeah. But that's not what's going on with the fish on land. Right? Because even the flops which I think are called flops because they appear uncoordinated. They have the ability to maybe take something that could be a dead end and turned it into another camp. But like a like a fish flopping out back into the water lake, how often could that possibly work? Okay. Well, probably not that often. But sometimes, but not that much. Yeah. But, you know, the thing it makes me think of -- Mhmm. -- is, like, when you think about us, like, like, we're we were ocean creatures at the beginning before became land creatures and and for us to have gotten to the land at all ever. Like, that was probably the first way it happened. Like, we're only possible because of fish flops thatll there was this there was this moment, there was this pivotal fish flop without which we would not exist. Boom. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. We don't need to say anymore. Okay. Alright. That'll do it. This episode was reported and produced by Annie McEwen, Sindunyan assumption of the Soren Wheeler, Alex Nissan, Tanya Thatll, Heather Radke, Matt Kilty, David Gabel, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, and Walters with additional sound design and mixing from Jeremy Blum. Special thanks toKaitlin Murphy, Dana Stevens, David Novak, and Pablo Stillman. And thank you for listening on what was a probably felt like a very flimsy premise the beginning, but -- Maybe it was. -- we'll be back with more episodes next year. Next year. Bring it on. Radiolab was created by Thatll Boomerod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lugo Wheeler and Lontif Nasir are cohosts Sizzie Lectinberg is our executive producer, and Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Blum, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, W. Harry for Tuna, David Gabel, Maria Pascotieri, Cindy, Sombundum, MacKilte, Annie Quinn, Alex sneason, Sarakari, Harry and Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. With help from Tanya Chawba and Sarah Sandbach, our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krueger, and Adam Chubo. This is Ryan Percy calling from Stovermont. Radio Lab is supported in part by the Alfred p Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about loan at WWW dot sloane dot r g. Science reporting on radio lab is supported in part by science sandbox, a Simons foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of on Radiolab is supported in part by science sandbox. A Simon's foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science. Hey, this is this is Jad. Radiolab is supported by capital one, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit is another reason banking with Radiolab is supported by Capital One, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit is another reason banking with capital. One is one of the easiest decisions in the history of One is one of the easiest decisions in the history of decisions. Even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and with no fees or minimums on checking and savings even easier than deciding to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast. And with no fees or minimums on checking and savings account, is it even a decision? That's banking reimagined. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital one.com/bank capital one and a member FDI c capital one dot com slash bank, capital one NA member FDIC. C.